One of the most interesting points made in this answer is �reducing circulating estrogen makes the circulating Androgens 30 Times Less Effective!!!!!!!

But what happens if you have low levels of estrogen to start with and a low level of the aromatase enzyme?

Well according to what has been said your cycle will be less than effective, 30 times less effective than someone who has higher natural levels of estrogen or a lot more aromatase enzyme in their body.

The guy�s who will tell you that the reason you are not gaining is because of your Genetics, or that you are not eating enough don�t really understand, because they do not have the same problem.

Lets take the first excuse - Genetics.

This is going to sound pretty chauvinistic, but lets bring Female bodybuilders into this. Why can Female bodybuilders use far less seroids than a man yet make equally impressive gains?

Is it because women are genetically blessed and have a naturally higher level of Androgen Receptors than men?

Bollocks

Is it because women train harder and know more about diet than most male bodybuilders?

I don�t think so.

Ok then could it have something to do with the fact that Women have Twice as much Estrogen in their bodies than men have?

Right a lot of you smart arses are going to say, but that is genetic, yes, but what is so genetic about the same woman injecting a few 100 mg�s of Test in her arse?

I�ll let you decide.

Now Diet.

Well this is a more difficult one, diet can have a direct effect on your gains, but not in the way most of these guys who tell you to eat 8 times per day and at least 6000 calories.

First of all if the Test you are taking is 30 times less effective and you try eating 6000 calories per day you are going to get fat regardless of how low your estrogen levels are or how clean you eat.

Now for the ironic part - a high fat diet is linked to increased estrogen levels. But be careful I�m not saying to go out and stuff your face full of fat. However I guarantee that by increasing the amount of fat in your diet you will start to see better gains. Remember the Old timers who used to drink gallons of full fat milk. Could that be one of the reasons they gained so well on less steroids than the guy�s today?

However if you are worried about eating more fat, you could try some of the strategies for increasing estrogen levels out lined in the web page below.
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/ullis/contrarian-endocrinology-02.htm

for anyone who has a problem with excess estrogen they should definitely use anti-aromatase/anti-estrogen compounds to prevent gyno.

But some people, myself included, just do not get gyno even at high doses of Test.

At the same time I do not gain very well on Test. However when I introduce a steroid with Progesterone qualities like Deca I start gaining.

There is one steroid that I have been think about taking which would confirm this for me and it is called:

Estandron

It is a combination of Testosterone and Estrogen.

Test prop - 20 mg
Test Phenyl - 40 mg
Test isocap - 40 mg
Estradion Phenylpropionate - 4 mg
Estrodiol benzoate - 1 mg

Don't know if I can get hold of it though as it is not a very common roid.

GOOD POST!

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Weights before dates

This is exactly why Nolvedex can hinder your gains.

However for people who have problems with high estrogen levels, Nolvedex is better than having gyno.

However someone who has naturally high levels of estrogen or aromatase enzymse may need to use Arimidex to lower their estrogen levels.

Basically it is a balancing act.

Too little estrogen and you get little or no gains even from large amounts of steroids.

Too much estrogen and you get gyno, gain lots of fat and water retention.

When these other guy's talk about Proviron increasing the Anabolic effect of steroids they put this down to the fact that Proviron competes with Testosterone for SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin).

Proviron has a higher affinity for SHBG than Test, therefore it will displace some of the Test from the SHBG and thus you will have higher concentrations of free Testosterone in your blood stream.

As for Proviron's ability as an anti-aromatase it is less effect than Arimidex.

Think about this, alcohol is known to increase estrogen levels in your body. Some of the heaviest drinkers I have every known where Rugby and Gaelic football players and none of these guy�s had any problems putting on muscle.

Also a lot of these guy�s had what would be considered by most people on this board to be shit diets, high in fat.

Again I am not saying to go out tonight and drink 10 or 12 pints of Guinness, but as long as you are not on a ton of oral steroids 1 or 2 pints might not be such a bad idea.

Another thing I will add... You are right about test stimulating IGF-1 levels. It will also cause an increase in the concentration of IGF-1 receptors. Men will have a natural increase in their amount of receptors as well as their serum test levels while training. There is a strong positive correlation with increased serum test levels and strength increases. If you are not gaining while on test, it is probably because you haven't been training long enough to have an adequate number of receptors to accomidate the androgen substrate. You are just pissing in the wind if you decide that you are going to start working out and get some juice to skip the first step (hard work). Exogenous injections will increase the percentage of receptors, but it takes years of hard work before your body will benefit from test. The exogenous injections will not increase the number of receptors enough (in 10-15wks) to handle any amount of extra androgens.

Train hard for a while, reach your maximum poteintial, then use AS to power through your plateau. You'll see great gains from it. And to second the TomatoHead... if you've done this and you're still n ot gaining... It's your diet, your training, or your poor sleeping habits.

<<<<<So what you need to do is boost your testosterone levels to the point where you realize the muscle building effects of this increase and not past this level to where you experience residual estrogen effects due to unused testosterone. In other words, if the level of testosterone increase causes a noticeable estrogenic effect then the increase is too much and your body will not utilize or benefit from the excess. You do not combat this excess with anti-estrogen compounds. You simply lower the level of the testosterone increase>>>

This makes so much sense to me.....instead of taking anti-e's lower your doses. Your wasting your gear if your getting sides..back off a bit.

quote:

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Originally posted by hooch:
from the article at the beginning of the post..

<<<<<So what you need to do is boost your testosterone levels to the point where you realize the muscle building effects of this increase and not past this level to where you experience residual estrogen effects due to unused testosterone.

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Better idea: Take armidex and you won't have to worry about your test turning to estrogen.

quote:

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In other words, if the level of testosterone increase causes a noticeable estrogenic effect then the increase is too much and your body will not utilize or benefit from the excess. You do not combat this excess with anti-estrogen compounds. You simply lower the level of the testosterone increase>>>

This makes so much sense to me.....instead of taking anti-e's lower your doses. Your wasting your gear if your getting sides..back off a bit.

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Because no existing research backs up this theory.

Estrogen makes you fat by agonizing a2 receptors and makes you hold water(which will make you stronger/ more stable).

In addition, lucky U, estrogen DOWN REGULATES AR mRNA transcription. That means High levels of Estrogen makes Testosterone LESS anabolic.

: J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 1993 May;45(5):333-43 Related Articles, Books

Testosterone down-regulates the levels of androgen receptor mRNA in smooth muscle cells from the rat corpora cavernosa via aromatization to ESTROGENS.

if you would like I can post other citations

btw- with respect to Serge, progestins have exceptional effects(with respect to increases in IM FAT-which makes you look a lot bigger) in some ethnicities of african origin
peace

so MACRO youre saying theres no truth to the point of the article that says "reducing circulating estrogen makes the circulating androgens 30x less effective"

This clears up some misconceptions from my other Bros that I know.

This is kind of post that keep you reading till the end of the responses, cause every one has their $.02 worth of contributing and it helps others who need to know this kind of info.

In my opinion the guys that have low estrogen to begin with need to stick with stronger anabolics like deca, d-bol, suspension,a-drol, etc. and then stack it with the test and take some clomid and diuretics to help offset the negative effects like gyno fat gain. If they don't like orals they can always take the injectible versions. The more powerful roids stronger but more toxic, or the lesser powerful and toxic. It all comes down to how bad and how fast they want results.

-Kovert2001-

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Weights before dates