Deca + propecia= hairloss hazard

Eq + propecia= no problems

For someone who has a receeding hairline and is a propecia user I am starting to wonder if eq and propecia would be better on your hairline than deca and no propecia. Think about it for a min. Even though deca doesn't convert to dht, you still have your own natural dht present when not using propecia which was enough to cause your hairloss in the first place, in addition to the deca in your system which is an androgen. Would you not be better off to stay on the propecia, block the dht and then use Eq? I have only used deca and never eq so this is just hypothetical. I'm hoping someone with eq deca and propecia experience or not can help me out.

So there is the question for u:

what's better for the hair, deca and no propecia, or eq with propecia?

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"As I walk through the valley of death I shall fear no evil because I'm the baddest motherfucker in the valley." -Deep Blue Sea

"All I have in this world are my balls and my word, and I don't break them for anybody." -Tony Montana, Scarface

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"As I walk through the valley of death I shall fear no evil because I'm the baddest motherfucker in the valley." -Deep Blue Sea

"All I have in this world are my balls and my word, and I don't break them for anybody." -Tony Montana, Scarface

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Originally posted by Mako the Shark:
I have heard ppl saying to stay away from the propecia and go with the cheaper proscar now I dont know if it was also suggested that proscar avoided any side effects that would come from using it in addition to any type of steroid but since they are the same thing chemically just differing in dosage it would follow that any side effects would apply to this too...Somebody who knows something about this answer up! :P

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Propecia and proscar are both the drug finasteride just diff doses. proscar is 5mg, propecia is 1mg. People use proscar just because it is a lot cheaper to cut it into fourths and take 1.25mg a day than to take propecia. a rx for proscar is like $70 but if u quarter the pills it will last u 120 days where as a rx for propecia is around $50 and it lasts 30 days.

BUMP AGAIN

If you take deca and no finasteride, then the deca will mostly convert to DHN in the scalp by the 5-alpha reductase enzyme. It has been shown that test and nandrolone are equally good substrates for this enzyme. Let's also say for the sake of argument that you are taking 400mg/wk of deca. Now, your body naturally produces say 70mg/wk of testosterone. So you have 400mg of deca vs 70mg of test fighting for the 5-alpha reductase enzyme. In theory, less test would convert to DHT than if you were not taking deca at all. Then, in the scalp, the DHT and the DHN will also have to fight for the androgen receptor (AR). Again, in theory there should be more DHN than DHT, so there should be more binding of DHN than DHT. Therefore I *think* that the combination of deca + no propecia would be less harmful than propecia and no steroids (natural conversion to DHT only). This seems to hold true anecdotally as well.

The problem with boldenone and most other steroids is that it hasn't been studied to any great degree, and therefore very little information is available. I have no idea what the relative binding affinity of boldenone is compared to test, nandrolone or DHT. If we equate the androgenicity of a drug to its hairloss potential, then eq is probably somewhere in the middle (i'm not sure if that is a valid assumption). So with eq, there are alot of unknowns.

To answer GAAV's question, which is more androgenic, boldenone or DHB, well, I don't have an answer. The answer to his second question, however, is NO. Finasteride will not block the conversion of boldenone to DHB because the formation of DHB is catalyzed by the 5-beta reductase enzyme. As finasteride is a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor only, it will not work to prevent the conversion of boldenone to DHB.

So, in summary, because of the unknowns with equipoise, I would be more inclined to go with the deca w/o propecia option. As a matter of fact, I am going to try a deca only cycle in the future and hope for the best.

One option you didn't mention is something that I am also considering for an upcoming cycle, and that is test only + finasteride. It may be better than either of the options you listed in terms of hairloss because you can prevent alot of the conversion to DHT from occurring, leaving the less androgenic test to interact with your locks. However, I have some research that shows that high dose testosterone can act like DHT, so using finasteride with test cycles may be all for not. We'll see.

I hope this helps some.

Great post man, you are a big help! I am suprised to see someone on this bored who is even more educated on hairloss than I am, but not by much . You have some excellent points to think about, and you are right about the lack of studies on these drugs, so we do have to speculate.

I don't know about the test only with finasteride. I had always assumed that more test= more convertion to dht= more hairloss, but maybe this isn't the case. Although finasteride only eliminates about 68% of the type 2 5alpha reductase enzyme leaving 22% of it free to transform all that extra test into dht. Also in the ranking of afinity to the AR receptor, test comes in second to dht and it is fact that all androgens play a part in hairloss, but dht is the most harmful.

I guess I will just stick to deca only and I might add some anavar next time too. I just finished 8 weeks on deca only and didn't really notice any accelerated loss, but then again the hair cycle is 3-4 months so theoretically I shouldn't yet. I also have just started to receed at the temples and it is hard to tell if they have moved from week to week.

Have you heard about Dutasteride which has just been submitted to the FDA for BPH and should be out late this year? It blockes both types 1 and 2 alpha reductase and reduces dht(I'm not sure the exact percentage)a lot more than finasteride. This should be promising but no one knows for sure how much better it will be than finasteride.

Testosterone comes second to DHT in binding affinity to the AR, but this is only in the case of someone who is not pumping exogenous androgens into his body. It has been shown that unmetabolized nandrolone is about equal to DHT in its ability to bind to the AR. Thus, when considering binding affinities of anabolic steroids, testosterone is somewhere in the middle. However, I wouldn't be too quick to correlate the binding affinity to the degree of hairloss. Some of the steroids with the worst binding affinities (e.g. winstrol, anadrol) have some of the worst reputations in terms of hairloss.

You are right about the finasteride inhibiting only the 5AR type II isozyme. Also, I believe that type I is predominant in the scalp. I forgot to mention that in addition to finasteride, when I do my test only cycle I will also be using Saw Pawlmetto, which is both a type I & II inhibitor and, as well, may have some anti-androgen properties. I will also be using Xandrox, which claims to eliminate as much as 98% of DHT production in the scalp (so I assume it is both a type I and II inhibitor).
I am hoping with these preventitive measures I can continue to use my much beloved test .

Saw palmetto might help improve the results of finasteride a little, but I have seen basically negative feedback about saw palmetto for treating hairloss. I'm not sure if it effects types 1 and 2 ar though.

You might try green tea extract which does work on 1 as well as 2. I have heard more positive feedback about green tea.

As far as xandrox goes, it is the general consensus at alt.baldspot that it is not significantly more effective than regular 5% minoxidil, and not worth the extra money. There has only been one study done on azelic acid blocking dht and it was on hamsters.
If i were you I would go with regular minox and 2% spiro which Dr. Lee also sells. Spiro will help block all androgens on the scalp and has been used for over 10years.

As far as whether to go with the deca or eq, I would have to say to go with eq. First of all, I like eq much better than deca. Second, you can use xandrox and propecia with eq. The drawback is that eq is still androgenic so it will cause hairloss that a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor can not stop. That is why I use spironolactone. It is an androgen blocker in the scalp and so far seems to prevent hairloss from eq. You can also try periodically washing your hair with Nizoral shampoo. While the keta in Nizoral also works like finasteride and azealic acid, it has a secondary effect of washing secreation build-up on the hairshaft that can slow down or halt hair growth. I have an article laying around here somewhere that talks about that aspect of Nizoral, and suggests using it with something like minoxidil, that increases blood supply to the hair shafts.

giantset

TGFM, what does a monthly supply of oral minoxidil cost? Do you think it would be effective in restoring some of my hairloss or only stopping further loss like finasteride as done for me?

I have been buying my loniten in mexico for $60 but they are actually discontinuing it so I'm going to have to find somewhere else to get it. It was $60 for 100 and I would take half a pill a day 5mg so it would last me 200 days.

It's hard to say but from my experience, you should be ok with deca and no finasteride if you are using nizoral shampoo form hair2go.com, 2%spriro, and 5% minoxidil from minoxidil.com.

Make sure you wait at least 3-4 weeks sfter the last shot to go back on finasteride because deca's half life is 2 weeks.

You can always take the liquid minoxidil orally (you have to calculate the correct amount to get 5mg). Some people do this.

What TGFM is talking about is minoxidil pills. They are used for vascular hypertension (high bloodpressure) and are not prescribed for hairloss.

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Originally posted by bigpun:
If I've been on finasteride for a couple of years and began a deca only cycle, would stopping the finasteride and beginning a regimen of minoxidil be able to preserve the hair I did from finasteride or do you think the effectiveness would not be as pronounced as with finasteride? (I'm just worried that if I began a deca-only cycle and stopped taking propecia, all the hair I have saved would fall out)

And I've been using Nizoral for about 6 months now but I've haven't seen any considerable effects from that.

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I think you should be ok, you might see a little loss but it takes longer than 8-10 weeks to lose 2 years of hair. It's just up to you. You might want to try eq instead and stay on finasteride.