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 For those of you who know alot about 17AA's......
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| Author | Topic: For those of you who know alot about 17AA's...... | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder 
Posts: 126 |
I'm planning on doing a heavy 17AA cycle along with fina, EQ, test, and Arimidex, and I will be using the following 17AA's: Halo, winny, and dbol. I rarely drink and never smoke, and when I drink, I do so in moderation, but I will not be drinking on my next cycle. Do you think that if I took milk thistle, I could take 50mh dbol, 50mg winny, and 15mg Halo daily without destroying my liver???? Thanks.     | ||
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Freak 
Posts: 1503 |
Eveyone is differet. I would say let your body tell you. You will feel discomfort. I would take ample amounts of milk thistle, cranberry extract, and epo. You are pushing the limit, but feel it out. Why halo? That is a crazy substance. I think fina works just as well or better ------------------ "Catch a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime." | ||
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Moderator 
Posts: 1217 |
It's possible, but that is pushing it. ------------------ | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder 
Posts: 352 |
I don't really see a problem with your cycle. As long as you take liver protectants you should be fine. Also, keep your cycle length under 12 weeks, and do not take anadrol even if available later on. The one 17-aa combination that he liver cannot tolerate is the anadrol-dball one. Godspeed | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 126 |
Cuban, what about Halo 10mg for 3wks on/2wks off/2 wks on/2 wks off, with the winny and dbol the same?? | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 126 |
Fonz, what do you mean by "dont take it (anadrol) later on"?? | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 553 |
I do see a problem. Why would you take all those at once? It's stupid to put yourself at such a risk. Pick either dbol, halo, or winny with the test and fina. For more mass use the dbol, for more cutting use the winny or halos. Winny will also block the progesterone from the fina, so jeep that in mind as a plus. Be smart. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 352 |
Just basically not to add anadrol at the expense of any of your other orals during your cycle. Godspeed | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 126 |
Oh, I see. How about this: dbol/50mg/ED/7wks THEN Halo/15mg/ED/5wks?????? | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 256 |
i disagree, you should be fine, and you will know within days if you should back off. anadrol and dbol can be tolerated together, but dont dose them to high, and try to take them on separate weeks, i.e. dbol wks 1,2,4,5,7,8, anadrol wks 3,6,9 if you're worried about it.... liver supplements will help....but most importantly....WATER! drink gallons and gallons, it's the best ! | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 126 |
I will be saving the abombs for another cycle. Does my last thought sound reasonable? | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 352 |
Gettin'bigger your suggestion looks good, You should have no problems with that cycle. To BillyBadAss, it is insanity to combine anadrol(50mg)+dball(50)mg) at the same time, your liver values would go through the roof in like 2-3 weeks. This is why they are used as "base" steroids. You either use one or the other. Godspeed | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 493 |
In a previous post entitled "Anadrol" a few days back, you will see a "Heated discussion" between myself and Fonz. I had sited a study there which claimed that the average dose of a 17aa compound which could be tolerated without elevating liver enzymes was 72mgs. However, there are other test subjects that were able to take much more. -ALL 17aa STERIODS HAVE THE SAME LEVEL OF TOXICITY TO THE LIVER- If someone can post a study which proves otherwise, then it's open to debate as I have a study confirming my above statement. That being the case, you TOTAL 17aa intake sho uld be at or under 72mgs/day if you are the average gentleman. This would also shoot down the idea that the liver can't process Dbol and Anadrol in the same time period. Have you ever had blood work down while on cycle in the past? If not, it's a good idea, maybe you can tolerate more....or much less. I would drop the Halo, that stuff should only be used by football players/wreslters/powerlifters pre-event...as more of a psychological aid than a steriod to include in a muscle building stack. If you were to drop a compound dosages, here's what I would suggest to error on the side of safety. -Winny 25-50mgs/day You already have a sufficient androgen supply for this cycle in the test to support water drawing effects of muscle cells, and ATP production, there is no reason to keep pounding away the androgens, when anabolic compounds hold the higher potential for muscle growth, over total weight gain (water). Hopefully this will help, and not turn into a massive flame war. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 439 |
Good post bro, interesting! Mass Monster | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 74 |
thanks for clearing that up mean one | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder 
Posts: 1019 |
I see little point in the halos. Run the d-bol for the first 5 weeks, then start the winny, throw in the fina alongside the winny for the last 6 weeks..test front to back and same with eq..you'll get huge and hard. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 192 |
Yes theyall may have the same toxicity to the liver but to my knowledge anadrol is the only AS directly linked to liver cancer. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 493 |
I'd love to hear where that was stated, besides just theory. Never heard of such a thing, but the speculation is the liver cancer results from Anadrol administration in those not able to handle it. That's speculation at best however. | ||
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Moderator
Posts: 2011 |
I dont quite understand the cycle construction with all those drugs, is that just for bulking?...... I have to question the halotestin, unless your bodyfat is under the 10% mark, I wouldnt see where halo will benefit you whatsoever. And I dont get the tren/eq stack, both are very strong anabolics, while the tren is also very androgenic. Why two anabolics like that, and how are you stacking those? I would opt for the either one or the other and then use the other anabolic stacked with winstrol and halo during your cutting cycle, of course using the halo only near the end, and that really would only make total sense if your in contest prep. My .02 ------------------ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 192 |
It is fine if you are willing to take the gamble that you are the one who will not develop liver cancer or jaundice another one of it's effects. However, personally I'll pass | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 352 |
I knew it, I frigging knew it!! I had a feeling MeanOne was going to post in this thread. But, I disgress, this time you are partially wrong. Headhunter, you are correct in assuming that Anadrol has been linked with hepatic tumours. The evidence against anadrol was found by the FDA to be INCONCLUSIVE. This just means that some mice got tumours and some didn't. If you want to throw yourself at your livers mercy go right ahead. But MeanOne, saying Anadrol has no liver toxicity if kept under 72mg/s a day is a stretch. Not to start another lame war, but weren't you taking 500mg?!!! (Thats 700% more than the average person. You must be a genetic anomaly. Apparently, your liver is still functioning, which raises some not so ambiguous questions. LOL Godspeed [This message has been edited by Fonz (edited February 05, 2001).] | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 352 |
Damn, I love it when I'm right! So long MeanOne. Here is the study you requested: (took me 10 minutes to find it) http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/htdocs/LT-studies/tr485.html Godspeed to you [This message has been edited by Fonz (edited February 05, 2001).] | ||
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Novice 
Posts: 6 |
How's it going MeanOne(GOY)? CAEDES | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 352 |
Humpty Dumpty BUMP Godspeed | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 493 |
Well, Fonz, I said if 17aa Steriod toxicity levels could be different then I would debate that. Okay, here is why your posted study is rediculous....direct quote.... "Groups of five male and five female F344/N rats were administered 0, 160, 315, 625, 1,250, or 2,500 mg oxymetholone/kg body weight " Okay, Syntex recommends 1-5mgs/kg bodyweight....You can see where the mice were taking INSANE amounts of the chemical. Hell, if they took that much IBprofen they would be dead as well. Please, if your going to post a study, post one that is logical and runs along the train of thought in the current bodybuilding world. Studies done on humans are more important than studies done on mice. Basicly, Let's feed anyone 2500mgs of any chemical or hormone per kg of bodyweight and see how they do....lol, it's terrible. But thanks for posting the study anyways...it was nice to read, despite how rediculous the premise was. Hi Caedes (ShezalHoe Groopie), if you need to get ahold of GOY he has an email address. I'm really getting sick of being accused of being him, simply because I know him. (This is the addition)- Have yourself a truely spiffy day. [This message has been edited by MeanOne (edited February 05, 2001).] | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 594 |
Asides from the common Milk Thistle recommendation, I would also add Phosphatidylcholine, N-acetyl cysteine, and maybe Schizandra extract. All have been shown to improve and protect hepatic function. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 493 |
Pimp Slap BUMP up to the top for Fonz when he gets a minute. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 352 |
Your rationale is totally correct as far as the dosages are concerned, but you ultimately forgot to look at the pathological findings of the FDA study. Number 1, this is a direct quote by the way MeanOne: " the incidences of subcutaneous tissue fibroma and fibroma or fibrosarcoma were SIGNIFICANTLY increased in 3MG/KG MALES" and "the renal tubule adenoma was significantly increased in 3 MG/KG males" DAMN, DAMN, DAMN MEANONE, you were totally incorrect then MeanOne. I await your response. Godspeed to you | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 493 |
Fonz, why is it that you can never read my posts? LOL, just jokking. Okay, you have proven to me that Anadrol MAY cause cancer, however the FDA still approves it, and more over, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ESTABLISHING IF THE TOXICITY LEVELS ARE DIFFERENT AMONGST 17aa STERIODS! Since the study excluded Winstrol, Halo, Dbol, and others...well it is unconclusive. However here you are for a conclusive study: Dr. Jason S. Wisely, "Detrimental effects of 17aa compounds to the liver." 1997. EMRLN: 7825-A475 Found under conclusions- Once again, if someone can establsh another source of information which will varify different levels of damage to the liver from different 17aa compounds, please post it. | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 594 |
One of often unlooked at factors involved with liver damage is not just alkylation of the 17-carbon, but the metabolites. From memory, B. Roberts stated that estrogenic metabolites are more associated with hepatic damage than the androgenic species. Looking at known aromatizable orals, there seems to be a trend in aromatizability and hepatic damage, i.e. methandrostenolone, norethandrolone, mibolerone, etc. The estrogen-anabolic, zeranol, is used in research to cause liver damage. Obviously, oxymetholone comes to mind as the prime liver abuser, and is believed to not aromatize, but few of us know what characteristics it's metabolites have. | ||
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Guru
Posts: 5476 |
Bumping this back up for all to read.Fantastic thread loaded with great info.Good job fellas.... | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 352 |
Ok, I agree with you(I must be taking way too much GHB), liver toxicity is not a factor if dosages of 17-aa are kept high for a moderate length of time. What I don't agree with is the usage of Anadrol at high dosages. Why? might you ask. Pretty simple really, out of all the 17-aa compounds out there, only Anadrol was found to SIGNIFICANTLY increase the risk of certain types of cancer at a dose of 3mg/Kg. This falls within Syntex's 1-5mg/Kg recommended daily dosage, so for the life of me I don't understand how they approved such a high dosage recommendation. So, the question now becomes: Is it worth taking Anadrol at a high dosage but run the risks of certain types of cancers, while maintaining a healthy liver? Bump for MeanOne Godspeed | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 1314 |
Good Post! ------------------ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 126 |
OK, I want my cycle to be as much as I can possibly take without causing severe damage to my liver/kidneys/heart, So how does this sound?? (Hey WCP, I'm about 5-6%BF, so the Halo would not be in vain, and yes, I'm not only out to improve my appearance, but I play intercollegiate sports, so I need the lean mass and huge strength gains from Halo.) Anyways: 50mg dbol/ED (ip) Well...?????? | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 352 |
Looks very good Gettin Bigger. You are correct in omitting the Anadrol that you planned to use. Try to keep Halo use to 4 weeks or less though. Godspeed | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder
Posts: 493 |
It's the only one "Proven" because it's the only one either of us can come up with a study to prove so, lol. I'm sure if they were to administer 2500mgs of Dbol or Winstrol per kilogram of bodyweight, cancer would be "Proven" as well. Hell, even 3 mgs per kilo, that's still over 210mgs a day for a 170lb person! Either way, Anadrol has not be PROVEN to be any more dangerous to your liver than any other 17aa compound. In fact, it has been PROVEN that all 17aa compounds pose the same health risks when concerned about the liver in my above study. However, it is the only compound that we can verify that was somewhat linked to cancer. This does not mean that because others weren't tested that they will not have the same effects. Besides, who (besides myself and a very few select others) use over 200mgs of any 17aa steriod a day, whether it be winny, Dbol, or Anadrol? Hopefully you can see the plane of logic... [This message has been edited by MeanOne (edited February 06, 2001).] | ||
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Moderator
Posts: 1604 |
Hepatic Response is very individualized. C-p450 variations will result in indivuals that can easily tolerate 50mg of oxymethelone and show hepatic abonormalities on 25mg of winstrol- vice versa. The only way to know is to take them in a graduated fashion. With respect to maintaining liver health, hepatic protectants like silymarin should be used- BY ALL 17AA users. Most important and often overlooked- Adequate water intake. ------------------ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 126 |
Thanks guys and Fonz. I'll keep ya'll(sp) posted. | ||
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Moderator
Posts: 2011 |
I was just waiting for Macro to poke in on that one..heh..heh..heh..heh.. WCP ------------------ |
All times are ET (US) | |
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posted February 04, 2001 11:16 PM