When they did an EKG on him,It was very abnormal,hence the overnight stay.Then they ran a series of tests on him for two days,Drawing blood every 3 hrs.for two days.

Gave him blood pressure medicine also.He went off from that day,lost 20 lbs. in a week.This is a guy that watches everything he eats,restricts his sodium,and does not have a family history of any problems whatsoever.

Granted he was his biggest ever,but held too much water,Hence the 20 lb. loss over a week period,although,I'm sure drawing the blood,and not eating for a few days,played a major role.

It's just not worth the risk to gain a few extra lbs. of water weight,only to lose them when you go off.You can get just as good of results from Test @ 200-500 mgs.a week,If you stack it with a couple D-Bols a day

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rico:
No, your body does not piss out testosterone but he was right. The testosterone the body can't use turns into estrogen which turns into bitch tits.

---

DC

Higher dosages are for lazy people*. If you don't want to work hard for the size then why are you even using gear?

Stew,

If you can get 1-2 pounds of LBM per month on a max of 70mg/week of natural testosterone then what makes you think that 180mg/week will not give at least twice the gains if not much more?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 thick I agree to an extent with some of what you have said, but, how many teens produce as low as 70mgs of natural test/wk? I am sure you would agree the figure is quite low to say the least, (and lets be real here most users, or abusers for that matter are teens) when adding healthy diet, strenous training and specific blends of a vitamins & minerals (in particular the ZMA combination) to the equation natural test production is increased considerably. Take the squat for example, that is the most powerful excercise possible to increase free test levels within the body.

Surely you would agree much of the effect associated with a 180mgs cycle of raw test/wk is contributed to the placebo effect. Mind also has a strong role to play in this, after all the mind can do a lot of positive things. Do you agree when I say the difference in sides between 250mgs and 500mgs are negligible, this is a fact.

I quote you here ' If you can get 1-2 pounds of LBM per month on a max of 70mg/week of natural testosterone then what makes you think that 180mg/week will not give at least twice the gains if not much more'?

So do you not think then that the difference between 250mgs and 500mgs is not going to be also 'increase gains considerably'. (this is what you said, difference between 70 and 180 will lead to twice the gains, so why wont it lead to more gains when comparing 250 - 500?
It is after all the same point as what you have mentioned above, No?

Regards
& look forward to a reply.

------------------

By starting out at 1 gram a week, after several cycles, or even a few yrs, are you going to have to up the test to 2g's, or 2.5 to see the same results?

Curious what you guys think about that,

On the one hand you are saying, and I quote you if I may

"Steroids should only be used by athletes in peak condition (and that includes lifters as well)."

And on the other hand you are saying 250mgs (180mgs of raw testis plenty to cause growth in most individuals. (remember steroids should only be used by athletes in peak condition)

Do you not believe athletes in peak condition already have natural test levels much higher than your average couch potato?

I know for a fact that you know the right combination of nutrition, training and sleep can increase natural test levels. And please show me papers that say the average amount of test in a teen is 70mgs/wk!

So if an athlete is already in peak condition with higher than average natural test levels I am right in assuming he will not gain too much on 250mgs?

------------------

This is certainly not the case. The number of receptors increase as the amount of androgen increases.

Another point I would like to make is, why do more than you need to? Sure, you can eventually do 1g, but why start now when 500mg works fine? Everyone is different, so personal goals, experiences, and so forth should be put into consideration before doing anything that may be regretted later.

------------------
300 kleen

[email protected]

Check out this website:Steroid Information, Pofiles, & Pictures

Using less will cause disapoint and more won't enhance gains to any significant degree. IMHO

quote:

---

Originally posted by ulter:
Congressional ignorance was the reason steroids became scheduled here 2Thick. When the hearings were held the FDA, FTC, and Health and Human Services came out against the scheduling of steroids. And congress ignored them.

---

Congress may have not been scheduling it for the right reasons but at least they knew that the abuse and misuse of steroids by ignorant* users would lead to wasted money, misuse and possible health issues for most users (especially younger users).

*Ingnorant= To be without knowledge concerning a subject or an issue

quote:

---

Originally posted by HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex:
Rather than try to force my twisted views onto the board members,I will simply state my own credo on this(pertaining solely to myself).If I am going to introduce exogenous hormones into my body that are going to inhibit my own T production,I am going to be using enough to grow RAPIDLY,not just gain "a few pounds".Call me lazy,or say I'm taking short-cuts,but I'll be the bigger,stronger lazy-man irregardless,lol...As far as my advice on this goes,the only way I would ever advocate a piddly dosage of 250mgs/week of test(and this would be only to a virgin-user)is if it was combined with a class-II steroid such as d-bol,so that the d-bol could pick up for some of the slack of such weak dosages and cover the lacking class-II activity...

---

So according to your logic, I should use more Exctasy, Alcohol, Dope, Cocaine, Heroine...ect because the affects will be greater than if I used less (even though there may be possible side effects)?

quote:

---

Originally posted by ulter:
So why isn't alcohol scheduled?

---

To my way of thinking (not that anyone asked,) 250 vs. 500 vs. 1000 is a no-brainer. Huck's post sums it up perfectly.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ulter:
I see where the problem is. No one explained to you that testosterone is not a foreign substance to your body. (Well maybe YOUR body) Everything else you listed there is.

---

It is synthetic test...not natural test. It may act the same in some instances but it is not 100% natural. Test serves hundreds of functions and synthetic test does not perform half of them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex:
Uh let's see,are the side effects of 3/4 a gram of test comparable to large amounts of ecstacy?2thick,sometimes you simply amaze me with your paranoia-inducing propaganda...

---

I was using your logic...don't get mad at me...get mad at yourself.

quote:

---

Originally posted by 2Thick:
Because you can make great gains with lower dosages.

Higher dosages are for lazy people[b]*. If you don't want to work hard for the size then why are you even using gear?

*For people who have not used for many years and need higher dosages for more growth. [/B]

---

I have to disagree, i am lazy???? UM NO I DONT THINK SO

Size of your dosage does not make you lazy at all, personally low dosages doesnt do a god damn thing for me

KRUSHER, I am doing a really high dose of test (2500mg per week) i will let you know how it goes!!!

I'm a lazy guy 2thick. No problem.

First off, arimidex inhibits the 5-a aromatase enzyme, which is responsable for converting testosterone into estradiol, and androstenedione into estrogen. Using the drug will end up in higher natural level of testosterone as well as prevent the conversion of test into estrogen which we all know is beneficial. As 300 Kleen said a complete supression of estrogen is definetly not a good thing, it actually is partially anabolic and aids in many different ways to muscle growth. Arimidex does not 'catch' anything, it does not block estrogen it does not destroy estrogen, did no one read the damn EF quiz???? 1mg of arimidex a day will eliminate up to %80 of the estrogen in your body, once taken for more than 1 week.

Side effects of high test doses with arimidex.
1. Hair Loss
2. Hair Growth
3. High BP
4. Prostate problems

Now all of these can be taken care of with the proper diet, ancialliary drugs, and training routines.

Stew Meat. 100,000mg of test will yield a much better result than 1000mg of test. You are basing your logic on the number of androgen receptors in your body remaining constant. This simply is not true. We've gone through this several times on this board and on many other boards, there is tons of evidence that when taking large amounts of test there is an UPREGULATION of androgen receptors. Hence the more you take, the more androgen receptors will be created, the more you grow. Of course there is a limit to all of this and there is a limit at which point you will just be wasting you money on shooting more test. 100,000 mg of test certainly is way above this point, but i dont' know anyone who has ever done a study to find out 'average' levels of testosterone useage in humans.

Stew you are right about there being only a certain amount of esterase enzymes in the body, but do you know how many of them you have? do you have any studies on high test doses, examining the esterase enzymes role and rate limiting factors? I've never seen one and i don't know if there ever will be one, it would be nice but i dont' think it's going to happen. In the meantime i'll look to real world experience. I personally know guys who've taken as much as 8000mg of test a week for weeks and weeks and the gains were much better than when they were taking 4000mg of test, so there must be and excess of esterase enzymes or your body produces more as it sees fit.

High test doses are for those who enjoy growth and who know what's going on in their body, of course taken improperly you can mess youself up, and not using the proper ancialliary drugs including liver helpers will quickly lead to problems. Now i'm talking about 2g+ a week, anything under that you basically can get away with your antiestrogens and that's it.

Test is king! Always will be.

2thick i won't even bother replying to you.

------------------

If you would have read more than one line you would have seen that I do not include users that have been on for a long time (like for several years).

quote:

---

Originally posted by E2:

2thick i won't even bother replying to you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by 2Thick:
This post is a great illustration of why steroids are illegal.

Has anyone even bothered to read Stew's reasons? I did not think so.

---

Do you think this is the reason why they became illegal, or do you not think it is because the majority of teens see them as a more is better philosophy and greatly abuse them?

Kleen, you have prooved my point. I said 250mgs (180mgs of raw test) is too low, and said that 500 was much better with negligible increase in sides. Taking all things into account i.e Only a well trained individual or sportsman should be using them, and if he is a well trained individual then 180mgs of raw test will do next to nothing on him, steroids can only make you so big. Once you reach your natural limit then with the use of steorids you are pushing through this limit and so the second cycle you are going to be pushing through your natural limit + what you have gained on the first cycle. So when the second cycle comes you are going to be gaining less. This is why you should hit receptors hard and fast on your first cycle and take advantage of this because it is not going to happen again. The first cycle is always the best cycle no? The reason the first is your best, is because it takes you even further than your natural limits, and closer to your steroid bodied max limit.

Look at the pros, they are not growing anymore, they have come very close to achieving there maximum steroid limit.

They go up and down every year and there has been a slight trend in an increase, but what 5lbs a year if they are lucky? These extra increases are due to them ever increasing there dose and adding more medicines and drugs to there already dangerous cycles.

Come on they are over 5000mgs of total steroid / wk added with insulin, growth hormone and anything else that will make them grow an extra few pounds.

And I don't think anyone here is naieve enough to think they use any less. Go and speak to Dorian Yates and ask him what his cycles were like, because believe me when you get to know them they tell you alot.

I dont know if I have missed anything out

BUT A WELL TRAINED BODYBUILDER WHO IS ABOUT TO BEGIN HIS FIRST CYCLE SHOULD HAVE AN ALREADY POWERFULLY LARGE BODY AND WILL BE CLOSER TO HIS LIMITS, whether it be natural or steroid, 180MGS IS GOING TO DO SWEET FA AND IT WOULD BE MUCH MORE LOGICAL TO USE 360MGS OF RAW TEST. REMEMBER THE SIDES BETWEEN THE 2 DIFFERENT AMOUNTS ARE NEXT TO NOTHING

If we took a vote on it, how many researched people or those who have been there done that, and regretted it later on.

I am sure most would be on the side of 500mgs on the first cycle if stacked with nothing else, not the 250mgs side.

quote:

---

Originally posted by E2:
Test is king! Always will be.

---

I Couldnt agree more buddy, how many people can use 3000mgs of one steroid / wk without even as much remote sides that you would get with using any other drug?

3000mgs of anadrol?
3000mgs of winny?
3000mgs of dbol?
3000mgs of deca?
3000mgs of primo (possibly but compare prise)
3000mgs of anavar?
3000mgs of tren?

Test King!

2-Is it correct that the more you use test/steroids for growth, the more you need them to grow and therefore you come to a point where (like Iron Game) mentioned you stop growing regrdless of the dose?

quote:

---

Originally posted by e-man:
2-Is it correct that the more you use test/steroids for growth, the more you need them to grow and therefore you come to a point where (like Iron Game) mentioned you stop growing regrdless of the dose?

Regards,
e-...

---

Please re-read what I said friend. I said that they grow up about 5lbs a year if they are lucky. And that is a result of using 5000mgs/wk of total steroid as well as slin, gh and everything else out there.

They 'the pros' are not users they are clear abusers. And when I say the pros I am reffring to the main 15.

quote:

---

Originally posted by The_Iron_Game:
Do you think this is the reason why they became illegal, or do you not think it is because the majority of teens see them as a more is better philosophy and greatly abuse them?

As you can see, more than just teens are going by the "more is better" philosophy (on this board). BTW- I was referring to that when I wrote it (or it may have been on another post).

Only a well trained individual or sportsman should be using them, and if he is a well trained individual then 180mgs of raw test will do next to nothing on him, steroids can only make you so big.

On the contrary, the elite sportsman should gain more than a laymen when using even 180mg of test per week because his body is fine tuned to respond to any advantage. Growth will be phenomenal in an elite athlete.

This is why you should hit receptors hard and fast on your first cycle and take advantage of this because it is not going to happen again. The first cycle is always the best cycle no? The reason the first is your best, is because it takes you even further than your natural limits, and closer to your steroid bodied max limit.

This is merely a theory stated by Duchaine and not fact. In fact, I started with 200mg of primobolan for 8 weeks and kept 10-12 solid pounds. My second cycle was Deca for 8 weeks with 3 weeks of D-bol (at under 25mg/day) and I gained 25 and kept 20...and so on through the years (although it dropped to about 10-15 pounds per cycle). How can my first cycle be the best if I keep making consistent 10-15 pound gains in my 2 cycles per year?

Come on they are over 5000mgs of total steroid / wk added with insulin, growth hormone and anything else that will make them grow an extra few pounds.

And I don't think anyone here is naieve enough to think they use any less. Go and speak to Dorian Yates and ask him what his cycles were like, because believe me when you get to know them they tell you alot.

The pros abuse steroids and that is a fact. I do not think you want to emulate that behavior.

BUT A WELL TRAINED BODYBUILDER WHO IS ABOUT TO BEGIN HIS FIRST CYCLE SHOULD HAVE AN ALREADY POWERFULLY LARGE BODY AND WILL BE CLOSER TO HIS LIMITS, whether it be natural or steroid, 180MGS IS GOING TO DO SWEET FA AND IT WOULD BE MUCH MORE LOGICAL TO USE 360MGS OF RAW TEST. REMEMBER THE SIDES BETWEEN THE 2 DIFFERENT AMOUNTS ARE NEXT TO NOTHING

What is the rush to get so big? If you grow 15 pounds per year LBM, then you will be up 75 pounds in 5 years. That is enough to make almost anyone look massive.

If we took a vote on it, how many researched people or those who have been there done that, and regretted it later on.

I am sure most would be on the side of 500mgs on the first cycle if stacked with nothing else, not the 250mgs side.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Who knows what could have really happened? I doubt there are more than 10-20 veteran users on this board so it would be a very intimate (and limited) survey.

[/B]

---

"It is synthetic test...not natural test. It may act the same in some instances but it is not 100% natural. Test serves hundreds of functions and synthetic test does not perform half of them."

is this the case? i thought the only difference was the esterification of testosterone - the molecule remains exactly the same as one's own endogenously produced test. can anyone help me out here with this one?

DO WHAT YOU WANT...IT IS YOUR BODY!!!

I know from my experience and the experience of countless users that 250mg/week for 8 weeks will yield satisfactory gains.

If you do not believe it then that is your prerogative but do not assume that it is impossible. It would be misleading to inform novice users that 250mg does not work. So admit that it works for some users and not others...it's that simple.

quote:

---

Originally posted by 2Thick:
Okay...I will repeat what I have said for over a year on this board...

DO WHAT YOU WANT...IT IS YOUR BODY!!!

I know from my experience and the experience of countless users that 250mg/week for 8 weeks will yield satisfactory gains.

Bud that is what I have been saying, it will work in some but not others, and why risk not using an extra 250mgs (which will not do any extra harm)

If you do not believe it then that is your prerogative but do not assume that it is impossible. It would be misleading to inform novice users that 250mg does not work. So admit that it works for some users and not others...it's that simple.

---

That is what I have said, 250 mgs will work in some but not others as well as and quite simply according to you an athelete who has 70mgs a week of natural test running around his system will be able to gain twice as much if he uses 180mgs. Then why not 4 times as much if he uses 500mgs? And we know sides is not an issue.

Then what is an issue? As Krusher said in the beginning money!

Peace

You can gain 25 pounds off of 250mg/week (and I have seen it many times) and keep most of it. *This example applies even if you gain 15 pounds.

How much more do you want to gain?

The more you gain, the more your body rejects the extra weight and the more stress it places on your organs and joints.

He may have amazing genes that react very well to steroids at moderate dosages.

I think he gave very good advice.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BerkeleyJuice:
Maybe I'm a bit ignorant on the subject, but logic informs me that higher doses can lead to greater side effects...and there a shit load of side effects that one must consider, many of which you guys are not. I view armidex and other durgs of that sort more like condoms than %100 safe guards. No precaution is 100 percent. So what I'm trying to say is that steriods are only %80 effective in protecting you from gettin pregnant.

---

IM A NOVICE, ON 750 TEST A WEEK WITH 400 DECA A WEEK FOR AROUND 10 WEEKS, 600 DECA FIRST WEEK TO ADD SOME OOOOOOMPH

I NEED SEX!!!!!!

THATS A SIDE EFFECT, I WANT SEX!!!!!!!

MY NICK NAME AT SCHOOL IS LATTIMER

SEX, SEX, SEX

THAT IS A SIDE EFFECT

SCREW MY LIVER, MY LITTLE DEPPNADE WANTS A LITTLE WOMAN TO PLAY WITH........

------------------

"GOD MADE STEROIDS, STEROIDS MADE GODS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[email protected]

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Chang, C., et al. (1987) J. Steroid Biochem. 27: 123-131.

http://www.bioscience.org/1996/v1/d/keller1/htmls/59-71.htm
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�The Synthesis and Testing of E-17a-(2-iodovinyl)-5a-Dihydro- testosterone and Z-17a-(2-iodovinyl)-5a-Dihydrotestosterone as Gamma Emitting Ligands for the Androgen Receptor�, R.M. Hoyte, N.J. MacLusky and R.B. Hochberg, J. Steroid Biochemistry, 36, 125-132 (1990).
�7a-Methyl-17a-(E-2�-[125I]iodovinyl)-19-nortestosterone: A New Radio-ligand for the Detection of Androgen Receptor�, R.M. Hoyte, T.J. Brown, N.J. MacLusky and R.B. Hochberg, Steroids, 58, 13-23 (1993).

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Ok, that's all I'll post; I'm starting to sound extremely sarcastic...
You quote me one thing that I said that you disagree on and I'll find the research to back it up.

I myself could experiment with higher doses,but for what?If it's not gonna make me a multimillionaire overnight,and allow me to retire now,I'm not going to risk my health.I hope all of you are safe in your endeavors,and take all the necessary precautions before doing your thing.

Genetics rule in this game,no matter what or how much you take.

Peace Brothers!

My point is, if you give your body 4 months or so between cycles its all good. Your body will grow excellent off this way of cycling. Atleast mine does. I usually Net Gain around 15lb. per cycle. And in a few years it really adds up.

Don't be stupid and do 4 or 5 cycles a year and have them all be 1 or 2 grams or Test plus all other kinds of pointless expensive drugs. The biggest thing is if you keep your diet and training routine perfect and intense the the drug use just falls in place.