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Amaury

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From:Sweden
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posted January 24, 2001 08:40 AM

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Hi everyone.
This is my first post and I want some advice
with my first cycle.

250 mg of Sustanon for 8 weeks...
Do I need Clomid??
Many friends has taken it and not used clomid with no Side effects.
Do you think its necessary?? Because its a
little dosage of Sustanon???

Thanks in advance.

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panerai

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posted January 24, 2001 08:45 AM

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Make it 500mg/week of Sustanon
Add 300-400mg/week of Deca and 30mg/day for first 5 weeks of dbol.You will need Clomid and Nolvadex(hopefully not)

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The_Iron_Game

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posted January 24, 2001 08:52 AM

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I am sorry my friend but on 8 wks og sustanon at 250mgs will more than likely give you a few pounds of muscle but most of it will come from your mind, you will think that you are on and workout harder and eat more. That is where the majority of gains will be coming from. The point of clomid is not go give 'sides' or whatever but it is used to get your natural test production up to level again once you come off the sust. It is used to prevent a sudden crash at the end which can often be a result of supressing natural test levels.

As Panerai said above go for 500mgs/wk especially since you did not mention you would be stacking it with anything.

Do a little research on it and you find out a 250mgs cycle of sustanon alone will do jack squat remember to eat much more than normal for as much as 3 weeks after your last injection and start the clomid therapy after 2 weeks out from your last injection.

------------------

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supraman

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posted January 24, 2001 09:38 AM

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I have to disagree. For your frist cycle, 8 weeks of sus will give you good gains if you work hard and eat right. Your natural test will be supressed after 8 weeks so you will need CLOMID.

My first cycle was 5 weeks of sus and I gained approx 15 lbs eating bad and the first two weeks of it I was on Spring Break drinking and doing drugs everday.

------------------
In Hoc Signo Vinces

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M1KAI

Amateur Bodybuilder

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posted January 24, 2001 12:44 PM

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Bro,

OK here is a nice one if you like results will be good.


=======Sust====Enathate===Deca=====Clomid
Week1--250mg-----250mg---400mg-----00mg
Week2--250mg-----250mg---300mg-----00mg
Week3--250mg-----250mg---300mg-----00mg
Week4--250mg-----250mg---300mg-----00mg
Week5--250mg-----250mg---300mg-----00mg
Week6--250mg-----250mg---300mg-----00mg
Week7--250mg-----250mg---300mg-----00mg
Week8--250mg-----250mg---300mg-----50mg EOD
Week9--000mg-----000mg---000mg-----100mg EOD

or

=======Sust=====Deca=====Clomid
Week1--500mg---400mg-----00mg
Week2--500mg---300mg-----00mg
Week3--500mg---300mg-----00mg
Week4--500mg---300mg-----00mg
Week5--500mg---300mg-----00mg
Week6--500mg---300mg-----00mg
Week7--500mg---300mg-----00mg
Week8--500mg---300mg-----50mg EOD
Week9--000mg---000mg-----100mg EOD

or

====Enathate====Deca=====Clomid
Week1--500mg---400mg-----00mg
Week2--500mg---300mg-----00mg
Week3--500mg---300mg-----00mg
Week4--500mg---300mg-----00mg
Week5--500mg---300mg-----00mg
Week6--500mg---300mg-----00mg
Week7--500mg---300mg-----00mg
Week8--500mg---300mg-----50mg EOD
Week9--000mg---000mg-----100mg EOD

Or you could drop the deca down to 300mg the first week and then 200mg for each following week...!

------------------
-=[MIKAI]=-

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Beezers

Elite Bodybuilder

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posted January 24, 2001 01:35 PM

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Up the dose. 250 is too low. 8 weeks is fine but 250 is too low. What i'm getting at here is that a dose of 250mg/wk is too low. I'm assuming you want to actually get something out of this cycle, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm also assuming that the reason you chose 250 is eiter you are worried about sides or you have been misinformed about how to use this AS. Sides at 500mg/wk are for most people non-existant and even those that do get sides at 500 all it is is some acne and bloat...nothing too serious. Grow my man...up the dosage.

------------------
The bigest risk in life is not taking one at all.

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1911

Pro Bodybuilder

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posted January 24, 2001 01:38 PM

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quote:
Originally posted by Beezers:
"Up the dose. 250 is too low. 8 weeks is fine but 250 is too low. What i'm getting at here is that a dose of 250mg/wk is too low."

Beezers, do you think 250 is too low? heh heh

Later,

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supraman

Pro Bodybuilder

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posted January 24, 2001 02:17 PM

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A lot of times people fail to answer the question correctly. He asked if he needed clomid for this cycle and the answer is YES!

AS are only a small portion of the equaiton when it comes to gains!

He stated that he is doing an 8 week cycle at 250. He shouldn't be misinformed that he will not gain off of that.

I had very good gains my first cycle with very similar dosages and as I recall 300 Kleen did using very similar dosages his first time as well.

Again AS are only a small portion of the equaiton when it comes to gains!

------------------
In Hoc Signo Vinces

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The_Iron_Game

Freak

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posted January 24, 2001 02:19 PM

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HUCK, ULTER, E2, SLOPAIN, KRUSHER?

------------------

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The Hellion

Cool Novice

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posted January 24, 2001 02:33 PM

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Here is a suggestion for a first cycle:

8 weeks = 500 mg Sustanon plus 400 mg Deca.

Don't use orals, it is not good for a first cycle, because you can damage your receptors, go with the injetables.

Take clomid one week after your last shot. 50/100/50 mg for three weeks.

Hope this helps.

THE HELLION

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supraman

Pro Bodybuilder

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posted January 24, 2001 02:38 PM

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Yes, Iron Game I am sure they will be quick to say that 250mg/wk is a waste at this point of "THEIR" AS usage, but we are talking about a virgin.

Another I wouldn't contest this if I didn't have personal experience. Not only myself,but best friend gained 15 lbs off of 100 dbol for first cycle.

AGAIN "AS are a very small part of the equation"

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The_Iron_Game

Freak

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posted January 24, 2001 02:44 PM

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Myself, Ulter & Huck just had a good conversation in a thread a little lower down. Go and read it, 250mgs is too weak for a virgin as well as an experienced individual.

Read and you will see why.

Its titled Huck are you online

As BEEZERS said 250 MGS IS TOO LITTLE

[This message has been edited by The_Iron_Game (edited January 24, 2001).]

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supraman

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posted January 24, 2001 02:58 PM

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Iron,
I have read that thread.

Two questions:

Do you have this personal experience(I do)
Do you think 300 Kleen and myself are lying?

I guess the 15 lbs I gained while partying my ass off on my first cycle of 250/week was all placebo or maybe beer retention...thats it thank you I have been trying to figure out what caused that 15 lb gain.

I bet my friends gains off of 100 dbol was all beer too!!!

Geez, I appreciate your help!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks a MILLION!

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The_Iron_Game

Freak

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From:Great Britain
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posted January 24, 2001 03:03 PM

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I am not even going to get into a discussion with someone as ignorant as yourself my friend. You should know that you shouldnt have been partying your ass off and that shows your dedication. Dont worry bro, ya can post what you like I will not reply cause I refuse to argue with people who are always right. If you read that post properly you would have seen all the different views not only that 250mgs is too low but it can be beneficial to a few but by far 500 would be of much better use without risking any danger.

Peace

quote:
Originally posted by supraman:

I bet my friends gains off of 100 dbol was all beer too!!!


WHAT DID HE DO TAKE 6 Tabs a day for 16 days?

Yeah he must have gained so much.

YES IGNORANT IS WHAT I SAID.

Ok everyone who said he should up his dose has no experience and you do, sorry, my mistake

[This message has been edited by The_Iron_Game (edited January 24, 2001).]

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supraman

Pro Bodybuilder

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From:Lexington, Ky
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posted January 24, 2001 03:12 PM

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I agree it is very stupid to party while cylcing, hence my "first" cycle "2 years" ago I was clueless as a lot of first timers are. I know several people that have great success with 250mg/wk why would I lie? I sorry you have bad genetics. I can grow off of Creatine.

As far as calling me ignorant on health or whatever you want to call me ignorant on was uncalled for. I agree I got a little wound up, but did not insult you.

Lets see who is ignorant on AS and the dosages that one should take to achieve good results.

Lets post pictures I guarantee you I look better!

Let me know!

[This message has been edited by supraman (edited January 24, 2001).]

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The_Iron_Game

Freak

Posts: 1522
From:Great Britain
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posted January 24, 2001 03:23 PM

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Your ignorance does not cease to amaze me.

READ THAT POST & THE READ IT AGAIN AND COMPREHEND IT.

I said one should not begin to use anabolic androgenic steroids until they have reached there natural genetic maximum. Once this is done steroids are the drugs to be considered.

Once you have reached your natural max you are not going to grow off of 250mgs of test/wk (180 of raw test) stacked with nothing else.

What part of that do you not understand?

And as everyone else knows I am going to be posting my pics when I get to 275 which will be after the completion of my next cycle.

Do me a favour and stop with the 'I know it all, you dont' attitude.

------------------

[This message has been edited by The_Iron_Game (edited January 24, 2001).]

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supraman

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From:Lexington, Ky
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posted January 24, 2001 03:31 PM

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275? you are either fat or Pro>
You're pretty bad behind that comp. I am not mad, you are because you know I have a point.....Experience and Witnessed experience.

And then you bring in the "reached genetic potential variable" Well what percentage of AS users waited until they were at their full potential?

[This message has been edited by supraman (edited January 24, 2001).]

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Twisted91

Amateur Bodybuilder

Posts: 279
From:California
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posted January 24, 2001 03:40 PM

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Iron game you mean that signature pic is not you.Damn you think you know a person...j/k

I don't doubt the genetically gifted Supraman but most us mortals who do have experience w/ a 250mg sus cycle for 8 weeks regret not raising the dosage to 500mg a week.

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supraman

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 561
From:Lexington, Ky
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posted January 24, 2001 03:44 PM

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I agree Twisted....I never said 500mg isn't better because I know it is. All I'm trying to say is 250 will yield some results to a first timer.

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DRRman

Amateur Bodybuilder

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posted January 24, 2001 03:45 PM

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yeh supraman, i have to agree with the game, 250 is too low. maybe you did get 15 pounds off 250mg per week and maybe you look great and have great genetics, but most of us on here do not have great genetics or we would be pro, therefore 250mg is not enough test in my oppinion either. My first cycle was 500mg sus, 400mg deca, 35mg dball per day first four weeks. I gained 35 lbs and kept 30 of them. Maybe the guy only wants to gain 15 pounds and keep ten, but if he's gonna go through the trouble of injecting and doing the stuff then i bet 25+ pounds would make him happier and the sides will be next to none.

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Twisted91

Amateur Bodybuilder

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posted January 24, 2001 03:47 PM

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In that case your completley right.A matter of personal preference. Amaury, do you want to gain 5 lbs or 15 lbs?

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greenhouse

Elite Bodybuilder

Posts: 811
From:Arkansas
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posted January 24, 2001 03:51 PM

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Look, I do not want to get in the middle of this at all. But, I guess me posting this might do just that. Oh, well.

I know that you both(Iron Game, Supraman) know your shit, I am not directing this towards anyone... Just stating some facts.

But, I have a buddy that I lift with, that took 250mg/Sust per week. (Redi-jects)FYI.

Granted Iron Game I am sure that you are correct in saying some of those gains are going to me mental; eating better, lifting harder.

But, my buddy who is on this board by the way. Already lifted extremely hard and ate extremely clean.

Some stats;23yrs old, 3-4yrs lifting, 190lbs, 12bf%. (rough estimates)

All in All he gained around 18-20lbs, give or take a few.

So take that as you will, I just wanted to post that. I am in NO way an advicate of small dosages at all. I'm just saying that I guess some people react different.

I will tell him about this thread, so maybe he elaborate on the matter.

Take care,
greener

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The_Iron_Game

Freak

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From:Great Britain
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posted January 24, 2001 04:29 PM

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Supra I did not bring it in, I told you to read my original post where I had the discussion with Ulter and Huck and in that I had mentioned that in there. My point is that most people use steroids as an easy escape. Use should not be given any consideration until one is near or has reached there natural limit. And I also said that 250mgs for most people will do nothing, as I am sure you read in my original post it was mentioned that some can benefit from such low doses, but the difference in sides between 250 and 500 is negligble and the reasons many first timers use 250 is because they are not fully researched and are worried about the sides associated with higher use.

Sorry about the ignorance thing, bad day, well bad week actually.

AND FAT I AM BY NO MEANS. 13.9% as of yesterday.

------------------

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supraman

Pro Bodybuilder

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From:Lexington, Ky
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posted January 24, 2001 04:39 PM

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No Problemo...I like a good argument everyone once in a while.

But the bottom line is "Everyone is different"

------------------
In Hoc Signo Vinces

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BerkeleyJuice

Amateur Bodybuilder

Posts: 63
From:Redding
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posted January 24, 2001 07:17 PM

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Well...I have supurb genetics, I run tack at a Pac 10 college (I pray every day that I don't get drug tested.) I have 6% body fat but I have been under 4% and I recieve massive gains from relatively low dosages of anabolics. Not as low as our friend who posted this thread however. I'm sure no one cares, but I rarely brag and tis seems like an appropriate place. By the way, I am not African American like most of the guys I run with. Peace!

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2Thick

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posted January 24, 2001 08:20 PM

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You will do fine with 250mg/week for 8 weeks, and yes you will need Clomid.

I agree with supra. Anyone who says that you need more than 250mg/week is either very lazy, very ignorant of steroid use, or has never tried 250mg/week for 8 weeks with a good diet and hard training. If you start with 500mg/week plus deca plus d-bol, then where do you go from there? That is self-destructive behavior.

Using more is NOT better. That attitude is the reason why steroids are ILLEGAL!

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BIG HURT

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posted January 24, 2001 08:58 PM

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250 mgs. of Sustanon a week is plenty for a first timer.Excessive dosages are not needed,especially for a first timer.

------------------
CUBS SUCK

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The_Iron_Game

Freak

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From:Great Britain
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posted January 25, 2001 03:07 AM

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2 Thick, surely you must realise by now that there are a number of underlying factors involved in whether he will be fine on a cycle of 250mgs of sust stacked with nothing else. I am sure most others on the board would agree on this one, it has been a point argued for a long time.

In short 2Thick (250 - 180mgs approx of raw test) on par with natural production, most of which if not all will be shut down by the use of synthetic test. So what, he will shut his own down or inhibit a large part of it and substitue with nothing but 180mgs of test. What benefit could that have to most (and I state most wih caution). In general normal test levels of a first time user (teen or slightly older) are about the equivalent of that. Diet, Training and nutrition can produce just as good results.

I have gathered by now you are a big deca lover, but TEST is KING j/k, No seriously.

Let us quickly evaluate, I am right in saying that steroids should only be considered after one has reached there genetic max naturally? If this is the case how do you think someone will add more mass to an already oversized body on a mere 180mgs of raw test/wk?

Look forward to hearing from ya on this one bro (or shouldnt I)

------------------

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The_Iron_Game

Freak

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From:Great Britain
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posted January 25, 2001 03:08 AM

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Oh and to answer your question, Yes get some clomid, but I already said that in my first post.

Peace

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2Thick

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posted January 25, 2001 03:15 AM

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Iron Game,

Steroids should only be used by athletes in peak condition (and that includes lifters as well).

I am assuming that the user will do everything right (diet, training, sleep, etc) and be in tip-top shape before doing the cycle. That is when 250mg (or 180mg as you like to say) for 8 weeks will be great for gains.

You yourself posted a theory that calimed that higher dosages will not work well if the receptors are not there to utilize the extra test. High dosages may be necessary a few years down the line but not during the first couple years of use.

If you can get 1-2 pounds of LBM per month on a max of 70mg/week of natural testosterone then what makes you think that 180mg/week will not give at least twice the gains if not much more?

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WC

Amateur Bodybuilder

Posts: 88
From:BAY AREA, CALI
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posted January 25, 2001 03:35 AM

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I agree with 2thick. Although, I think 200mg deca with his sus shot wouldnt hurt! I have done many cycles over the years, and still use 250mg, max of 500mg a week of sus, still grow! I am only looking to gain 5lbs per month of keepable gains. That translates to 60lbs a year, and I have done about that in the psat year. I go off for 6-8 weeks, and after gaining 8-10lbs, I lose 3-4, and keep 4-6 :-). Before someone flames and says you'll never be able to keep gaining 60lbs a year- yes, I know that.

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Myomorph

Amateur Bodybuilder

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posted January 25, 2001 03:57 AM

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Dan Duchaine advocated using no less than 600mg of test your first time out.

He said this was because you will never grow like on your first cycle. The first cycle always yields the greatest gains. The following cycles will yield gains, of course, but never like your first one did. So he said to hit your system hard and heavy with no less than 600mg of test a week. No deca. No Dbol.

Here is an excerpt from Danarchy:

I say this because your first steroid experience will be your most productive. This incredible burst of anabolism will happen once and once only. Keeping this in mind, I recommend that you use the MOST EFFECTIVE AND POTENT of all steroids for your first time: injectable testosterone.

Trust me on this one. IGNORE advice from every other expert. Do not consider synthetics, including pills like Dianabol and Anadrol 50. These choices may be appropriate at a later date, but they are not potent enough for that crucial first time. Creams, patches, analogs, precursors, and boosters are all VIRTUALLY INEFFECTIVE AT ANY DOSE OR PRICE. A three cc syringe full of oily testosterone and a 21 to 23 gauge needle are required to get the most out of your first testosterone experience.

How much should you inject each week? Nothing less than 600 mg of testosterone a week will do the job. Remember, the first few testosterone injections of your life will be your most productive ones. I hate to say this, but those great stories of how so-and-so gained 50 pounds of muscle in just a few weeks are often distorted. These dramatic weight gains are ONE SHOT DEALS. Your FIRST steroid encounter is, perhaps, the ONLY ONE that will give you significant gains. DONT fart those gains away with chicken-shit dosages or with some girlie, weak-assed steroid. If you are a male, and you want to use testosterone to get big and strong, then jam 600 to 1000 mg of either testosterone enanthate or cypionate once a week. The USH II will give you the step-by-steps on needles, but the short version is that you want a three cc syringe, with a needle at least one inch long, either 22 or 23 gauge. Inject all the testosterone that you are going to use for the week at the same time. If you using 600 mg of testosterone enanthate or cypionate, this is the full three cc oil.

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gtaman

Cool Novice

Posts: 20
From:Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jan 2001

posted January 25, 2001 03:59 AM

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Doesn't this depend on your goals? I don't think every guy wants 30 lbs. from a cycle. I have reached 180 lbs through hard work and one short cycle and look fairly lean now. I want to gain more muscle and lose some fat, get up to maybe 195 and lean.

I am thinking I might be able to do that with a lighter cycle with 500 mg sus for the first week or two and 250 mg thereafter, stacked with dbol for the first 2-3 weeks and deca throughout.

If I don't get all the way there after one cycle then I'll just try another cycle to add 5-10 more pounds. Then later in the year a cutting cycle to finish the job.

I want to look good, not huge (personal preference). I really don't know how I feel about going from 5'8" 180 and well built to 210 or something. I think 200 has to be the limit for me. This is the "no bigger than Thurman Thomas principle."

To each his own, I am hearing a lot from guys getting results from lighter cycles, maybe worth a shot depending on how one's genetics respond to juice.

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The_Iron_Game

Freak

Posts: 1522
From:Great Britain
Registered: Oct 2000

posted January 25, 2001 06:54 AM

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quote:
Originally posted by 2Thick:
Iron Game,

Steroids should only be used by athletes in peak condition (and that includes lifters as well).

If you can get 1-2 pounds of LBM per month on a max of 70mg/week of natural testosterone then what makes you think that 180mg/week will not give at least twice the gains if not much more?

2 thick I agree to an extent with some of what you have said, but, how many teens produce as low as 70mgs of natural test/wk? I am suere you would agree the figure is quite low to say the least, when adding healthy diet, strenous training and multi vitamin minerals to the equation natural test production is increased considerably. Take the squat for example, that is the most powerful excercise possible to increase free test levels within the body.

Surely you would agree much of the effect associated with a 180mgs cycle of raw test/wk is contriubted to the placebo effect. Mind is a strong part in this equation? Do you agree when I say the difference in sides between 250mgs and 500mgs are negligible?.

I quote you here ' If you can get 1-2 pounds of LBM per month on a max of 70mg/week of natural testosterone then what makes you think that 180mg/week will not give at least twice the gains if not much more'?

So do you not think then that the difference between 250mgs and 500mgs is not going to be also 'increased considerably'. It is after all the same point as what you have mentioned above, No?

Regards

------------------

[This message has been edited by The_Iron_Game (edited January 25, 2001).]

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2Thick

Moderator

Posts: 6194
From:Me, To You
Registered: Jun 2000

posted January 25, 2001 10:58 AM

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Humans produce an average max of 70mg/week.

Yes, you will gain more with 500 (and even more with 1000) but you do not 500-1000mg now. You will do fine with lower dosages.

Once again, only athletes at their peak should use steroids so my theories (of moderate dosages) only apply to 10%-20% of board members. This is also why most people use more and think they get more out of it. High dosages are for lazy people...period.

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