Wilson 6 and others comments please

[Realgains]

Can you comment on my training partners lab work?
He had this blood work done after week 4 of an 8 week cycle of test/tren

AST 83 Norms 10-36
ALT 54 Norms 10-55
GGt 10 Norms 0-50

I do believe that AST is more muscle related than liver related.

Cholesterol 4.7 mmol/L (or 181mg/dl) Norms below 5.2
Trigylcerides .57 considered low

HDL .3 (11.5mg/dl) increased risk below 1
Chol/HDL ratio 15.7 !! Increased risk from anything above 4.9
LDL 4.14(160) considered in the high range

PSA 4.8 Norms 0-2.5 That really is bothering him. I hope I said the right thing when I mentioned that a small increase in PSA is normal when on a heavy cycle since the juice causes benign prostatic hypertrophy.

He is the same age as me, 40.
He has decided to never do a long cycle again but stick to very short two week cycles.

Comments are appreciated.

RG

 

[MS]

Has he got any off-cycle blood work to compare it to? Agreed, the AST is most likely training related, but he really needs to take a break from gear and have everything tested again. What's his diet like? How much gear are we talking about here?

 

[Realgains]

Has he got any off-cycle blood work to compare it to? Agreed, the AST is most likely training related, but he really needs to take a break from gear and have everything tested again. What's his diet like? How much gear are we talking about here?

Yes he does have other base line blood work.

off cycle for 6 months he had this....

cholesterol 3.7.....or.....142
HDL.97...........or......37
LDL2.4.....or.....92
Chol/HDL ratio 3.8
LDL/HDL ratio 2.5

AST 34
ALT 24
Note: re AST etc.... during this time he was on a "lay off" from the weights for a two months but did his running.

what concerns him the most is the very low HDL and the poor ratio of Chol to HDL. ALSO the elevated PSA

forgot to mention that his platelets were 487 ...norms 150-400
Creat was 90 norms 60-110


He was "on" 75mg of tren per day and 800 of test per week. He did not use any 17aa roids.

 

[wilson6]

The tren is what is mostly likely screwing up his HDL, 800 mg of test might decrease his HDL into the low 30's, but probably not to where it is at now. The ALT and AST are not grossly elevated but likely a function, in part of the cycle, probably tren. His baselines would probably be at least double those values if he were lifting at the time.

The HDL is a concern as is the high LDL. Not a good combination long term.

The PSA is just above the normal limit. PSA values should always be viewed with caution. Having a PSA less than 2 doesn't mean no prostate cancer and a PSA slightly over 4 doesn't mean prostate cancer. Many things can elevated PSA. Personally, he should have a digital exam just to make sure. If the prostate is tender, then a course of antibiotics could help. If enlarged but otherwise normal, then it may be the cycle.

From Bhasin's work, 600 mg a week of test for 20 wks had no effect on the prostate and only small but significant effects on HDL.

If he is bent on continuing his cycle, I'd drop the tren, give it about 4 weeks and have his blood retested and have a digital prostate exam, or stop the cycle, give it a solid 8 weeks and retest.

Perhaps he should stick with just test on his next cycle and see what effects it has on his blood work. Then he'll have some idea of what the tren may or may not be doing.

Just because an AAS is not c-17 aa, doesn't mean it won't effect HDL or LDL. Even deca will have some effect on HDL at some point.

Personally, I like to see a PSA < 2.0 along with yearly digital exams, perhaps every 6 months in heavy juicers.


W6

 

[Realgains]

Wilson6........Wouldn't it stand to reason that test would be harder on the old prostate than tren?

I had a feeling the tren was the major culprit in regard to hdl/ldl.

Pre cycyle blood work was Cholesterol 143, HDL 37 and LDL 93, Chol/HDL ratio 3.8 and LDL/HDL ratio 2.5

AST 34, ALT 24

Strangly triglycerides were a bit higher at .71

He also took 20 of nolva per day to offer some lipid support and maybe that is why the total cholesterol was pretty good.

RG

 

[wilson6]

Nolva can also affect the liver in some subjects as well.

Regarding the prostate, test in theory may be a culprit because of both the 5-alpha reduction to DHT and aromatization to E2, both can adversely affect the prostate. However, any androgen may cause problems. I have to look up more data on Tren regarding androgenicity and the effects on the rat prostate.

Having said that, he still has to sort out which androgen is doing what and if his prostate problems, if there is one, is really related to the androgens or to a possible infection. Even sex prior to a PSA test can elevate PSA.

He should probably stop everything, have his prostate checked and then everything rechecked in about 8 - 10 weeks.

W6

 

[Realgains]

Wilson6 thanks for the good info as usual!

RG

 

[BigEasy]

I saw this awhile back and filed it away for some reason..... I guess this was why.


Effect Of Exogenous Testosterone And Prostate Volume
THE JOURNAL OF UROLOGY; 1998;159:441-443

Abstract:
Purpose: We investigate and define the effects of exogenous testosterone
on the normal prostate.

Materials and Methods: A total of 31 healthy volunteers 21 to 39 years old
were randomized to receive either 100, 250 or 500 mg. testosterone via
intramuscular injection once a week for 15 weeks. Baseline measurements of
serum testosterone, free testosterone and prostate specific antigen (PSA)
were taken at week 1. Semen samples were also collected for PSA content
and prostate volumes were determined by transrectal ultrasound before
testosterone injection. Blood was then drawn every other week before each
testosterone injection for the 15 weeks, every other week thereafter until
week 28 and again at week 40. After the first 15 weeks semen samples were
again collected, and prostate volumes were determined by repeat
transrectal ultrasound.

Results: Free and total serum testosterone levels increased significantly
in the 250 and 500 mg. dose groups. No significant change occurred in the
prostate volume or serum PSA levels at any dose of exogenous testosterone.
Total semen PSA levels decreased following administration of testosterone
but did not reach statistical significance.

Conclusions: Despite significant elevations in serum total and free
testosterone, healthy young men do not demonstrate increased serum or
semen PSA levels, or increased prostate volume in response to exogenous
testosterone injections