When to add Deadlift and squat

[watevrpal]

I have been mainly doing vanity muscles in the gym for the past 6months and now I want to add deadlift and squat into my routine. Below is my basic routine.

Mon/Thur- chest and tri's followed by 3 mile run
Tue/Fri- bicep's and shoulders followed by 3 mile run

I am currently takeing wed/sat/sun off from the gym. I want to add the deadlift to my workout I am just curious if I should just add it on WED long with squat. I have not done either of those exercises in many years. any ideas?

 

[ceo]

I have been mainly doing vanity muscles in the gym for the past 6months and now I want to add deadlift and squat into my routine. Below is my basic routine.

Mon/Thur- chest and tri's followed by 3 mile run
Tue/Fri- bicep's and shoulders followed by 3 mile run

I am currently takeing wed/sat/sun off from the gym. I want to add the deadlift to my workout I am just curious if I should just add it on WED long with squat. I have not done either of those exercises in many years. any ideas?

You must have some excellent recovery abilities. But, my guess would be you're just overtraining.

You should've added deads and squats 6 months ago when you started.

My best advice would be to find and train with an established powerlifter. Train the way he trains, eat the way he eats (if you want to get big). But, since you probably won't do that, and you'll never be able to not do curls, I'd go with the 3x5 or 5x5, which you can find out about in this thread:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/w...xercises-articles-more-start-here-484815.html

 

[*The_West*]

vanity muscles lol, i love it. what a lot of people realise, is that if they dont train heavy on compund movements such as squat and deadlift, that they will be hindering any gains to their "vanity muscles"

 

[cobracock1979]

I excercise may face...is that a vanity muscle?

 

[Big_BK]

I used to no train bi's for the longest time, the only reason i do curls now is just to kill time.

 

[goal200]

I would have a dedicated LEG day and a dedicated BACK day. Let the vanity muscles get worked by the compound movements for a while and see how you progress. Don't ever NOT do back cuz you already overtrained your arms or whatever...you need to focus on back and biceps will follow. Focus on chest and triceps will follow. One or two pump sets of bis or tris AFTER they're already tired from compound movements is ok but I wouldn't overdo it.

 

[lockdownd7]

You must have some excellent recovery abilities. But, my guess would be you're just overtraining.

You should've added deads and squats 6 months ago when you started.

My best advice would be to find and train with an established powerlifter. Train the way he trains, eat the way he eats (if you want to get big). But, since you probably won't do that, and you'll never be able to not do curls, I'd go with the 3x5 or 5x5, which you can find out about in this thread:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/w...xercises-articles-more-start-here-484815.html

Yes, because everyone wants to be a powerlifter. And the training program of an advanced powerlifter is ideal for someone who hasn't done squats and deadlifts in a long time.

Sarcasm's fun, isn't it? Anyway, to answer the OP, good to hear that you've realized the importance of squatting and deadlifting. However, if you're lacking experience in these lifts, you'll definitely want to work them at least twice, preferrably three times a week. You need to get frequent stimulation so that you can learn the movements. Once a week would not be nearly enough. In fact, you may even consider hitting them as much as 5 or 6 times a week, with a few light sessions just for the purpose of grooving the motor pattern and helping you learn the lifts faster.

 

[watevrpal]

Thanks for the comments. And as overtraining is concerned I think everybody is different I do not believe That I am overtraining but who knows. I am trying to get huge while cutting some fat.

 

[SouthernLord]

Yes, because everyone wants to be a powerlifter. And the training program of an advanced powerlifter is ideal for someone who hasn't done squats and deadlifts in a long time.

.

I don't know bro... This is pretty solid advice. If he wants to properly learn how to Squat and Deadlift, then who would be the best teacher? The best thing I have ever done for my training is seek out experienced powerlifters. I have had the opportunity to train with local bench press heros and WPO champions. Although I am not a powerlifter myself, they have taught me more about proper training than any geek at any commercial gym ever has. I can promise you that if you found a group of powerlifter the last thing they would do is put you on a circa max heavy band tension training program lol. More than like they would put you through the most basic of the 5x5 type routines. Guess what? You would get strong as fuck too.

btw welcome to the forum

 

[ceo]

Yes, because everyone wants to be a powerlifter. And the training program of an advanced powerlifter is ideal for someone who hasn't done squats and deadlifts in a long time.

Sarcasm's fun, isn't it? Anyway, to answer the OP, good to hear that you've realized the importance of squatting and deadlifting. However, if you're lacking experience in these lifts, you'll definitely want to work them at least twice, preferrably three times a week. You need to get frequent stimulation so that you can learn the movements. Once a week would not be nearly enough. In fact, you may even consider hitting them as much as 5 or 6 times a week, with a few light sessions just for the purpose of grooving the motor pattern and helping you learn the lifts faster.

No sarcasm in my reply. I said what I said and I meant every word. In my opinion, what I said is the best advice I'd give him. If he were able to train with an established powerlifter (someone who knows how to DL and Squat), that PL'er could train him the right way how to squat and DL...without injury. Of course he would start with a weight he could handle, but his weights would go up leaps and bounds over him going out and doing it on his own, I can guarantee that 100%. Tell me where the sarcasm is in that advice?

Since he might not have access to, or time to work with, or the desire to work with an established PL'er, I told him to do the 5x5. Again, IMO he is overtraining. Even though watevrpal thinks he is not overtraining, he most likely is. I'd bet money if he followed my advice he'd gain more muscle quicker.

So again...explain to me the sarcasm in my post (not yours).

 

[lockdownd7]

No sarcasm in my reply. I said what I said and I meant every word. In my opinion, what I said is the best advice I'd give him. If he were able to train with an established powerlifter (someone who knows how to DL and Squat), that PL'er could train him the right way how to squat and DL...without injury. Of course he would start with a weight he could handle, but his weights would go up leaps and bounds over him going out and doing it on his own, I can guarantee that 100%. Tell me where the sarcasm is in that advice?

Since he might not have access to, or time to work with, or the desire to work with an established PL'er, I told him to do the 5x5. Again, IMO he is overtraining. Even though watevrpal thinks he is not overtraining, he most likely is. I'd bet money if he followed my advice he'd gain more muscle quicker.

So again...explain to me the sarcasm in my post (not yours).

While I understand what you're getting at, my point was that it seemed like you were being elitist/judgmental with comments like

You should've added deads and squats 6 months ago when you started.

But, since you probably won't do that, and you'll never be able to not do curls

Also I thought your comment about overtraining was sarcasm, since there is no way he could be overtraining on a systemic level doing strictly upper body stuff but I guess you were referring to overtraining the upper body muscles specifically.

Setting aside that useless debate, my other point was simply that while powerlifters are great at what they do, their training style is not ideal for everyone. Especially not an elite powerlifter on a complicated conjugate periodization cycle using max and dynamic effort, bands/chains, and all other sorts of methods that are necessary for them to progress. Someone who hasn't squatted or deadlifted before can up the weight on the bar 3x a week and all the complicated stuff is more of a distraction than any sort of necessity.

 

[SouthernLord]

While I understand what you're getting at, my point was that it seemed like you were being elitist/judgmental with comments like




Also I thought your comment about overtraining was sarcasm, since there is no way he could be overtraining on a systemic level doing strictly upper body stuff but I guess you were referring to overtraining the upper body muscles specifically.

Setting aside that useless debate, my other point was simply that while powerlifters are great at what they do, their training style is not ideal for everyone.Especially not an elite powerlifter on a complicated conjugate periodization cycle using max and dynamic effort, bands/chains, and all other sorts of methods that are necessary for them to progress. Someone who hasn't squatted or deadlifted before can up the weight on the bar 3x a week and all the complicated stuff is more of a distraction than any sort of necessity.

Do you know any powerlifters? I guarantee any "experienced" powerlifter would take this guy who has never done a squat or DL and put him on the most basic progressive overload program, and at the same time teach him proper form and technique. Would you rather "Johnny Half Squatter" down at the local Y show this guy how to squat, or some one who bases thier whole training program on it? I think that is the point CEO is tryin to make.

OP- buy Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" and teach your self how to squat and pull with correct form. This book will teach you how to do the lifts and "coach" others on proper technique. Follow the beginner 3x5 program that is included. *beginner doesn't necessarily mean easy*

If doing this isn't an option...Check out the training vault sticky CEO posted. Read everything in the link to Madcow's site and do the beginner 3x5 or 5x5 workout. Good luck in your quest for big legs and a big back.

 

[ceo]

While I understand what you're getting at, my point was that it seemed like you were being elitist/judgmental with comments like

Nope. I was serious. He should've added squats and deads 6 months ago when he started.

I was also serious when I said he probably will not seek out an experienced powerlifter who would be willing to train him, and he probably won't ever be able to not do curls (I can hope, but I'm also a realist).

Fine, do the 3x5 or 5x5 and add in a couple sets of curls.

Also I thought your comment about overtraining was sarcasm, since there is no way he could be overtraining on a systemic level doing strictly upper body stuff but I guess you were referring to overtraining the upper body muscles specifically.

I stand by that comment as well.

Setting aside that useless debate, my other point was simply that while powerlifters are great at what they do, their training style is not ideal for everyone. Especially not an elite powerlifter on a complicated conjugate periodization cycle using max and dynamic effort, bands/chains, and all other sorts of methods that are necessary for them to progress. Someone who hasn't squatted or deadlifted before can up the weight on the bar 3x a week and all the complicated stuff is more of a distraction than any sort of necessity.

Where did I say that he would be doing maxes and using bands and chains? Nowhere. At least not right away! I also said established PL. If an elite PL wants to take time to train a new lifter, great, but probably not likely. So give me and the established PLer's some credit man...we wouldn't throw a newbie to the wolves and skip over form and stick him under max efforts and use chains, etc. right away. Who put these ideas into your head? Certainly wasn't me. Dunno how you could've got them from reading my posts.

So...do the 3x5 and eat big. When you stop progressing on that (maybe a year), advance to the 5x5. There's a guy here who did this, and gained 40 lbs in his first year. User name is Sculelos. Haven't seen him around in a little while, but he has both a 3x5 log and a 5x5 log here. Proof.

 

[SaiBoT]

The reason I never trained with a powerlifter is because I never met one, plus there is always the issue of the powerlifter is willing to train you.

So I agree with ceo and SL that to get good at squats and DLs a powerlifter teacher it's the best way to go. Or would you think a bodybuilder would do it better? Don't forget that a large group of successful bodybuilder has a powerlifting background...

 

[Rage-Of-Sparta]

i think some powerlifting should be included in any
bodybuilders training arsenal.
most PLs are big and strong
2 things BBs want size and strength

just dont take pre contest diet advice from them

 

[ceo]

i think some powerlifting should be included in any
bodybuilders training arsenal.
most PLs are big and strong
2 things BBs want size and strength

just dont take pre contest diet advice from them

Don't forget that a large group of successful bodybuilder has a powerlifting background...

Damn good points. A PL'er guy named Ronnie Coleman did pretty well in BB'ing if I remember correctly.

 

[lockdownd7]

Do you know any powerlifters? I guarantee any "experienced" powerlifter would take this guy who has never done a squat or DL and put him on the most basic progressive overload program, and at the same time teach him proper form and technique. Would you rather "Johnny Half Squatter" down at the local Y show this guy how to squat, or some one who bases thier whole training program on it? I think that is the point CEO is tryin to make.

OP- buy Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" and teach your self how to squat and pull with correct form. This book will teach you how to do the lifts and "coach" others on proper technique. Follow the beginner 3x5 program that is included. *beginner doesn't necessarily mean easy*

You just recommended exactly what makes sense - self-education. Learning to squat is not as complicated as some people make it out to be. As long as you're not lazy and you've got a modicum of common sense, the rest is just repetition. If you're terribly out of shape it may take a little while to get there, and depending on your motivations you may want to emphasize various things (i.e. high bar vs. low bar, narrow vs. wide, etc.) so there's not just one correct way to squat.

Remember that powerlifters only objective is to move as much weight as possible. This implies a certain technique - one that reduces the distance the bar travels and emphasizes the strongest muscles.

Where did I say that he would be doing maxes and using bands and chains? Nowhere. At least not right away! I also said established PL. If an elite PL wants to take time to train a new lifter, great, but probably not likely. So give me and the established PLer's some credit man...we wouldn't throw a newbie to the wolves and skip over form and stick him under max efforts and use chains, etc. right away. Who put these ideas into your head? Certainly wasn't me. Dunno how you could've got them from reading my posts.

Hmmm....I think it was this right here.

Train the way he trains, eat the way he eats (if you want to get big).

The only reason this debate even started was because I didn't like how you came in with a condescending attitude. Oh my god, his first 6 months, he didn't lift properly? What a f*cking pussy. Lighten up, realize everyone starts somewhere, and lose the judgemental tone. It doesn't help anyone.

 

[dabuffguy]

I am a "bodybuilder" type.

But, I have moved into a powerlifting phase. Heavy heavy sets at low reps. I want to build up my power and strength. I think it is important to go into phases of power and strength, and phases of hypertrophy. It will improve your physique and give your body a different type of stimulation for development.


Always always do deadlifts and squats.

 

[Scotsman]

You just recommended exactly what makes sense - self-education. Learning to squat is not as complicated as some people make it out to be. As long as you're not lazy and you've got a modicum of common sense, the rest is just repetition. If you're terribly out of shape it may take a little while to get there, and depending on your motivations you may want to emphasize various things (i.e. high bar vs. low bar, narrow vs. wide, etc.) so there's not just one correct way to squat.

Remember that powerlifters only objective is to move as much weight as possible. This implies a certain technique - one that reduces the distance the bar travels and emphasizes the strongest muscles.



Hmmm....I think it was this right here.



The only reason this debate even started was because I didn't like how you came in with a condescending attitude. Oh my god, his first 6 months, he didn't lift properly? What a f*cking pussy. Lighten up, realize everyone starts somewhere, and lose the judgemental tone. It doesn't help anyone.

Drop the pissing match with ceo right now or I'm going to start deleting both of your posts.

This is a warning to both of you. If you wish to advise the original poster than by all means do, but drop the hostile interaction.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[OneBreath]

Learning to squat is not as complicated as some people make it out to be.

Safety and proper form. Out of all the guys i see at my gym maybe 2 or 3 have good proper and safe form. The rest are rocking forward on their toes, putting pressure on their knees, etc.

THE WORST thing you can do OP is to start squatting with bad form and make it a habit. I did this and its a hard thing to break. Luckily i found plenty of material put out by westside barbell and started box squatting immediately (you might want to check this out)

Start right off the bat and take the advice of ceo and sl. Research proper form and if possible get a PL to teach you these lifts.

Good luck and welcome!

 

[ceo]

The only reason this debate even started was because I didn't like how you came in with a condescending attitude. Oh my god, his first 6 months, he didn't lift properly? What a f*cking pussy. Lighten up, realize everyone starts somewhere, and lose the judgemental tone. It doesn't help anyone.

not my intention at all bro. Hard to get one's tone on the internet. I'm often misunderstood even IRL though because of my straightforward delivery...no sugarcoating. Not trying to be a dick. I think I have and do help quite a few folks here in my 7+ years on EF (that's probably why they made me a mentor). No sarcasm intended, btw. Hang around long enough and read enough of my posts and you'll figure it out. Hell, we may even become e-friends!

No worries bro, I'm lighter than Scotsman...dude's got like 70 lbs or more on me I think.

 

[ceo]

Drop the pissing match with ceo right now or I'm going to start deleting both of your posts.

This is a warning to both of you. If you wish to advise the original poster than by all means do, but drop the hostile interaction.

Cheers,
Scotsman

Sorry Scots. No hostility here at all. I don't have time for that and this forum isn't the place anyway.

Man, I may have to give up on this internets thing. No one here gets me anymore.

 

[Scotsman]

Sorry Scots. No hostility here at all. I don't have time for that and this forum isn't the place anyway.

Man, I may have to give up on this internets thing. No one here gets me anymore.

I knew you meant no harm, I've read your posts long enough to understand where you are coming from. I just wanted to nip that in the bud before it blossomed.

Trust me I understand the no one getting you thing. I have to put the kid gloves on at all times.

BTW- I thought you were giving great advice and pretty much the same that I would.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[SaiBoT]

The thread starter said at beginning he was lifting for many years... and also said he was doing "vanity muscles training" for the past few months... He needed a change in direction and by assuming he has to learn how to do and incorporate squats and deadlifts to his rouine that alone has merit! Who is better to teach them? Certainly a seasoned powerlifter or a certified strength coach...

 

[highlander555]

There's been some great advise here on many diffrent sides. I'd recomend getting Mark Rippetoe's book "Starting Strength". It's an awesome info resource on squats and deadlifts with great advice on how and when to do them.

 

[needtogetaas]

I love Scotsman. I hate hate hate not being strong. Really for the longest time its all I have cared about. Just being big and powerful. Sadly a power lifters is not as marketable as a BB guy.

 

[dabuffguy]

I love Scotsman. I hate hate hate not being strong. Really for the longest time its all I have cared about. Just being big and powerful. Sadly a power lifters is not as marketable as a BB guy.

Very true, you don't see Andy Bolton on the cover of FLEX ever.

Guys absolutely fucking insane strength and shit, but put him on a magazine cover and people will be like "WTF is there a fat guy on a fitness magazine cover?" Guys a fucking monster of a man, but not 6-8% BF and ripped with BBer curves. That's what people want to see.