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When do you think the end of the world will come?

FreakMonster

New member
According to Sir Isaac Newton, Britain's greatest scientist, analyzed the Bible, which he believed contained God's secret laws of the universe. He concluded that the end of the world will happen in the year 2060. According to Malcolm Neaum, the producer of a TV documentary on Newton: "He spent something like 50 years and wrote 4,500 pages trying to predict when the end of the world was coming. But until now it was not known that he ever wrote down a final figure. He was very reluctant to do so."
 
Only ONE knows sir, if you can, check out the book "A Life God Rewards" by Bruce Wilkinson. peace
 
let me check my PDA..... I have it down as 2112, May 5th.
 
What do you mean by "end of the world"?

From a Christian view, the world will never end. If you are speaking of Rapture,Tribulation, Armageddon,etc then I believe it is very near BECAUSE THERE ARE NO MORE PROPHECIES TO BE FULFILLED before the return of Christ (Rapture).
 
alien amp pharm said:
What do you mean by "end of the world"?

From a Christian view, the world will never end. If you are speaking of Rapture,Tribulation, Armageddon,etc then I believe it is very near BECAUSE THERE ARE NO MORE PROPHECIES TO BE FULFILLED before the return of Christ (Rapture).

Really? Can you list em and when these were fullfilled? I really would like to here this. No kidding.
 
Wodin, although I have such a brilliant mind (j/k):D I cannot recall now, but I will look that up again. I'm at work right now, but will get that info. up here sometime soon.
 
For real alien, I am fascinated with eschatology and the various end time notions.
 
alien amp pharm said:
What do you mean by "end of the world"?

From a Christian view, the world will never end. If you are speaking of Rapture,Tribulation, Armageddon,etc then I believe it is very near BECAUSE THERE ARE NO MORE PROPHECIES TO BE FULFILLED before the return of Christ (Rapture).

Bless you my son, I am already here.

Seriously though, I suspect it will end when Iran detonates hundreds of nuclear weapons over Europe, America, and Asia as American armies close in on it. The world will freeze over, killing plant and animal life in a nuclear winter. The last people will die after running out of food because they've eaten all the dead bodies and captured and cannibalised all the other people who are left.
 
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Ick....

WODIN said:
Really? Can you list em and when these were fullfilled? I really would like to here this. No kidding.
You don't ask for much, do you?

There is oh so much to list. I'd be easier to say what's left to happen (major events).

1. A war that kills 1/3 of humanity (might begin when we go into Iraq).

2. Last 7 years begins when a covenant is confirmed. This covenant will enable Israel to build a temple on the Temple Mount. The person who does this should be the antichrist. This deal should last for 7 years, but I'm uncertain if the year span will be expressly mentioned when it's done.

3. 3 1/2 years into this last 7 years, Israel will have competed the temple and begin blood sacrifices. The antichrist will enter the temple, stop the sacrificing, and declare himself as god.

4. After this, vast persecution of Christians will begin. Those that won't be part of the ecumenical movement will be targeted. At this point, there will be an effective global-level government, global economy, and global religious ethic.

5. There will be a new world power that somehow is composed of 10 leaders or 10 nations. The antichrist will head this power. He will be a head over the revived Holy Roman Empire and the Pope in the Vatican at that time will be the False Prophet (even Catholic prohecies uphold this....he will be the last Pope).

6. Everyone in the world will be required to take a mark to buy or sell. As "mark" means to be punched or to break the skin, it mean the implantation of something. The VeriChip being pushed now is 100% capable of doing this job. Take this and they can track you anywhere and identify you with a simple scan of the implanted chip. Those who refuse to take the chip will be excluded from the global economy. Taking this mark will require some kind of loyalty oath, and doing so will eternally condemn you becuase you will be taking an oath to the antichrist.

Spend some time checking out www.endtime.com for more on this in better detail. Listen to past broadcasts archived on the webpage.
 
Darktooth said:



Almost impossible. Dinosaurs didn't have telescopes, NASA, and other forms of space technology :D

I hope I live to atleast 35 before I die.

With the funding, astroners are only able to track about 4% of the entire sky.
 
Re: Ick....

Baby Gorilla said:
You don't ask for much, do you?

There is oh so much to list. I'd be easier to say what's left to happen (major events).

1. A war that kills 1/3 of humanity (might begin when we go into Iraq).

2. Last 7 years begins when a covenant is confirmed. This covenant will enable Israel to build a temple on the Temple Mount. The person who does this should be the antichrist. This deal should last for 7 years, but I'm uncertain if the year span will be expressly mentioned when it's done.

3. 3 1/2 years into this last 7 years, Israel will have competed the temple and begin blood sacrifices. The antichrist will enter the temple, stop the sacrificing, and declare himself as god.

4. After this, vast persecution of Christians will begin. Those that won't be part of the ecumenical movement will be targeted. At this point, there will be an effective global-level government, global economy, and global religious ethic.

5. There will be a new world power that somehow is composed of 10 leaders or 10 nations. The antichrist will head this power. He will be a head over the revived Holy Roman Empire and the Pope in the Vatican at that time will be the False Prophet (even Catholic prohecies uphold this....he will be the last Pope).

6. Everyone in the world will be required to take a mark to buy or sell. As "mark" means to be punched or to break the skin, it mean the implantation of something. The VeriChip being pushed now is 100% capable of doing this job. Take this and they can track you anywhere and identify you with a simple scan of the implanted chip. Those who refuse to take the chip will be excluded from the global economy. Taking this mark will require some kind of loyalty oath, and doing so will eternally condemn you becuase you will be taking an oath to the antichrist.

Spend some time checking out www.endtime.com for more on this in better detail. Listen to past broadcasts archived on the webpage.

Does the AntiChrist have to be a person or can it be a country?

It seems that the USA is the closest thing to a world government we have seen. It rules the world. Even the Roman empire only ruled the Western world. The USA is the only country to dominate the entire world.

The global religious ethic could be money and globalisation.

The US dollar could be the Global currency. Maybe it is the "mark".

The USA could be a possible metaphor for God by claiming to be the global advocate of truth, human rights and freedom.

The antichrist is responsible for the last world war leading to armeggeddon. This may be what the USA is about to start in the Middle East.
 
Baby Gorilla, thanks for pointing out some of that info.

I have tons of info/researched on this very subject.

I will bump this thread up again whenever I can get my stuff together. Right now work prevents me from doing so.

Some points I'd like to express are the things written in the bible that until VERY recently were thought of as impossible and laughable. Here's what I mean.....

The Antichrist will make someone in his image.
-This was thought of as impossible, but recently cloning has been discovered. Now a duplication of someone isn't too hard to believe is it?

The two witnesses that stand and preach during the tribulation. It is said that after a while they will be killed and the whole world will watch and celebrate.
-until recently people wondered how this could be that the whole world could witness this event. With all the satelites, the number of televisions, the internet, etc. It is very possible for the world to witness one event at one time.

The mark of the beast in the hand or forehead
-just look at computers and now they are even begining to place microchips into people!

Tracking people with the chip (buying and selling, etc.)
-They are currently developing a super computer that is capable of doing approx. 100,000 billion calculations per second. This is how they are going to keep track once the one world government/religion takes affect.

I could go on, and this is just from my memory as I don't have the resources to cite scripture or news articles confirming these with me right now.
 
If by the end of the world you mean the complete destruction of the planet itself, it will come no later than roughly 6 billion years from now when the Sun uses up all its hydrogen fuel and expands large enough to completely consume the first 3 (or possibly 4) inner planets (i.e. us).

Though incredibly stupid, I don't think humanity is powerful enough to completely destroy the planet, so barring an alien invasion (highly unlikely) or collision with a very large object (also highly unlikely), we're looking at about 6 billion years.

-Warik
 
FreakMonster said:
According to Sir Isaac Newton, Britain's greatest scientist, analyzed the Bible, which he believed contained God's secret laws of the universe.

I stopped paying attention after that. the Bible is not an accurate method of forecasting the future. Christians have been predicting the end of the world for 2000 years and it never happened. The last mainstream date was 2000. nothing happened, before that it was 1948, nothing happened.

I remember there being a post about all the failed prophecies about the end of the world that were made (large ones, i'm sure there were 10x more smaller ones) that never happened.

And, lets all face it, the antichrist is going to be labeled whomever we aren't getting along with. The british used that same shit against napoleon, the french used it against hitler, now we are using it against Bin Ladin & Hussein. In 40 years, when uruguay is a nuclear power with a mad dictator people will be spouting anagrams of how you can change the number of letters in his name to get 666. I think the sky is falling. I hate to admit i fell for that shit in the 2000 hoopla, but i am wiser now.


The end (of life at least) will probably come hundreds of years from now, i'm guessing 2400 or so. Either we will leave the earth, or we will fuck it up somehow.
 
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2004 goddamnit.

We're all gonna day. SEE YOU ALL IN HELL!!!


HAIL SATAN! Horns UP! :garza:
 
nordstrom said:
I stopped paying attention after that. the Bible is not an accurate method of forecasting the future. Christians have been predicting the end of the world for 2000 years and it never happened. The last mainstream date was 2000. nothing happened, before that it was 1948, nothing happened.

The 2000 years prediction was concluded because it is written that 1000 years is like a day to God. It is said that Christ will return in 2 days. This is why this was assumed. Of course I think it was total garbage to claim it (and obviously it didn't happen) just as they thought the world would end with Y2K.

1948, correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the date when Israel became a nation. I don't know where you got the info that that date was predicted to be the return of Christ. However it is written in Revelation, I believe, that the generation that sees God's chosen people (Israel) become a nation will live to see the return of Christ.

The truth is that NOBODY knows an exact date for the return (in relating to Christianity) however, whenever one sorts through all the garbage and uninformed info, we know it is very close.

btw, there will always be poeple claimimg the end of time, the return of Christ, just as it says in the bible that there will always be false prophets and preachers. Don't let the ignorant, selfish idiots ruin one's outlook on Christianity.

Wodin, can't find the info I wanted to use, but some of what I've written does pertain to the last prophecies before the return of the Lord, according to Christianity.
 
I'm wondering how Christians would react if Christ came back and said that Christianity was a corruption of what he taught and needs to be dismantled.

I wonder what Christians would do if Christ came back as a homosexual man because he considers homosexuality to be a natural form of human sexuality that has been persecuted by the corrupt christianity he wants to overthrow.

In any case there are so many different Christian sects that those who didn't like what Christ had to say would deny he is christ. As such I doubt Christ will come back in the way they think. When he does come Christians are unlikely to consider him Christ in any case.
 
HansNZ said:
I'm wondering how Christians would react if Christ came back and said that Christianity was a corruption of what he taught and needs to be dismantled.

True indeed. There has been and always will be people who corrupt Christianity. Even people claiming to be completely faithful. Only Christ knows each person's true intentions. That is why you must sort through various opinions, false doctrines, etc.

I wonder what Christians would do if Christ came back as a homosexual man because he considers homosexuality to be a natural form of human sexuality that has been persecuted by the corrupt christianity he wants to overthrow.

I don't judge anyone's actions (i.e. preferences) and I don't consider myself "better" than anyone else. If you read the bible you will know how God feels about homosexuality - he destroyed cities & people over just this sin.

In any case there are so many different Christian sects that those who didn't like what Christ had to say would deny he is christ. As such I doubt Christ will come back in the way they think. When he does come Christians are unlikely to consider him Christ in any case.

That's very true, unfortunately. Just look at how the people acted AFTER Moses led them into the new land. Seeing the sea part would make most people repent and believe, but sadly the people went back to their sinful nature shortly thereafter. That's just human nature sad to say.
 
Short answers....

Both the antichrist and the false prophet will be persons. They will head the revived Holy Roman empire (looking like the EU will become that).

The USA does not rule the world. We can only influence affairs within foreign nations. The world power to emerge will have the ability to force its will within nations. The UN is working to become this as most every treaty they want nations to sign compels them to stay in line with the UN mandates on any issue they've legislated on.

The global religious ethic will be panthiesm and humanism. The move being done now is to declare all religions equal, and any denomination or sect that won't acknolwedge the validity of other faiths is to be eradicated as dangerous to humanity.

No. The mark is what you must take to participate in the global economic system. The US Dollar is not a global currency by any argument. In fact, the US economy is in very bad shape.

I think God created the USA to be a safe haven for truth. In the end, freedom of religion will not exist. Devout Christians will be singled out for persecution. The only hope for anyone going on in these times would come from a place that has the military power to refuse to partake in a global system and respects such liberties. Bible prophecy identifies the USA in the endtime, but it's unclear if we survive to see the end or not. It's clear we are not part of the global system that emerges in the end.

No. We might be triggering the event that will lead to the fulfilment of the 6th trumpet of Revelation (1/3 of humanity killed). This war won't start the WAR, but given world affairs, it will be the trigger that sends the world into WAR. Another nation will likey start lobbing heavy ammo around and get things out of control while we're busy in Iraq.

Armeggeddon is the very final battle of this age when the world government comes in force against Israel to crush it. Just as they are about to fall, Jesus returns and slaughters the armies opposing Israel. After that, the kings of this world will be put under Jesus' authority for the next 1,000 years.
 
KA-BAR said:
2013 end of world as we know it.

Hey KA-BAR where the hell did u get this year from?? I was thinking the same exact thing. I think I saw it on the discovery channel where the aztecs or somtin predicted this?
 
Re: Short answers....

Baby Gorilla said:
Both the antichrist and the false prophet will be persons. They will head the revived Holy Roman empire (looking like the EU will become that).

The USA does not rule the world. We can only influence affairs within foreign nations. The world power to emerge will have the ability to force its will within nations. The UN is working to become this as most every treaty they want nations to sign compels them to stay in line with the UN mandates on any issue they've legislated on.

The global religious ethic will be panthiesm and humanism. The move being done now is to declare all religions equal, and any denomination or sect that won't acknolwedge the validity of other faiths is to be eradicated as dangerous to humanity.

No. The mark is what you must take to participate in the global economic system. The US Dollar is not a global currency by any argument. In fact, the US economy is in very bad shape.

I think God created the USA to be a safe haven for truth. In the end, freedom of religion will not exist. Devout Christians will be singled out for persecution. The only hope for anyone going on in these times would come from a place that has the military power to refuse to partake in a global system and respects such liberties. Bible prophecy identifies the USA in the endtime, but it's unclear if we survive to see the end or not. It's clear we are not part of the global system that emerges in the end.

No. We might be triggering the event that will lead to the fulfilment of the 6th trumpet of Revelation (1/3 of humanity killed). This war won't start the WAR, but given world affairs, it will be the trigger that sends the world into WAR. Another nation will likey start lobbing heavy ammo around and get things out of control while we're busy in Iraq.

Armeggeddon is the very final battle of this age when the world government comes in force against Israel to crush it. Just as they are about to fall, Jesus returns and slaughters the armies opposing Israel. After that, the kings of this world will be put under Jesus' authority for the next 1,000 years.

It appears that basically anything evil is anything that disagrees with or has a different agenda than Christianity.

I think this is perfect example of the way christianity controls people - by branding as evil anything that opposes it.
 
Re: Short answers....

Baby Gorilla said:
Both the antichrist and the false prophet will be persons. They will head the revived Holy Roman empire (looking like the EU will become that).

The USA does not rule the world. We can only influence affairs within foreign nations. The world power to emerge will have the ability to force its will within nations. The UN is working to become this as most every treaty they want nations to sign compels them to stay in line with the UN mandates on any issue they've legislated on.

The global religious ethic will be panthiesm and humanism. The move being done now is to declare all religions equal, and any denomination or sect that won't acknolwedge the validity of other faiths is to be eradicated as dangerous to humanity.

No. The mark is what you must take to participate in the global economic system. The US Dollar is not a global currency by any argument. In fact, the US economy is in very bad shape.

I think God created the USA to be a safe haven for truth. In the end, freedom of religion will not exist. Devout Christians will be singled out for persecution. The only hope for anyone going on in these times would come from a place that has the military power to refuse to partake in a global system and respects such liberties. Bible prophecy identifies the USA in the endtime, but it's unclear if we survive to see the end or not. It's clear we are not part of the global system that emerges in the end.

No. We might be triggering the event that will lead to the fulfilment of the 6th trumpet of Revelation (1/3 of humanity killed). This war won't start the WAR, but given world affairs, it will be the trigger that sends the world into WAR. Another nation will likey start lobbing heavy ammo around and get things out of control while we're busy in Iraq.

Armeggeddon is the very final battle of this age when the world government comes in force against Israel to crush it. Just as they are about to fall, Jesus returns and slaughters the armies opposing Israel. After that, the kings of this world will be put under Jesus' authority for the next 1,000 years.

It appears that basically anything evil is anything that disagrees with or has a different agenda than Christianity.

I think this is perfect example of the way christianity controls people - by branding as evil anything that opposes it.

Most of what is cited here as being bad I think would be an improvement.
 
The destruction of humanity, IMO will not happen for a very long time if ever...there is an entire universe waiting for us. We are still in the infant stage.
 
Re: Re: Short answers....

HansNZ said:
It appears that basically anything evil is anything that disagrees with or has a different agenda than Christianity.

I think this is perfect example of the way christianity controls people - by branding as evil anything that opposes it....
What's wrong with that?

If God is who He's supposed to be, anything contrary to His will is evil. How is that controling or oppressive unless you disagree with who God is?

Christians believe they follow the one true God. So, they are bad people for believing that?
 
Re: Re: Re: Short answers....

Baby Gorilla said:
What's wrong with that?

If God is who He's supposed to be, anything contrary to His will is evil. How is that controling or oppressive unless you disagree with who God is?

Christians believe they follow the one true God. So, they are bad people for believing that?

I don't believe that christians are "bad" (unless of course they start to force their beliefs on me).

Yes, I do believe that cults of whatever type employing forms of mental manipulation, i.e. fear, guilt, claiming omnipotence, threatening people with hell and damnation if they don't follow, etc., etc., in order to control people are inherently bad.
 
Ah....

HansNZ said:
...Yes, I do believe that cults of whatever type employing forms of mental manipulation, i.e. fear, guilt, claiming omnipotence, threatening people with hell and damnation if they don't follow, etc., etc., in order to control people are inherently bad.
This explains a lot. :)

A cult isn't as broadly defined as you see it. A legitimate faith can believe in an omnipotent God that has His standards that we are expected to adhere to.

Cults involve control of members by those in leadership....a denial of free will. Many monotheistic faiths do not have this element, and when found, it is a rare exception where a church leader is seeking power for himself.
 
Re: Short answers....

Baby Gorilla said:
Both the antichrist and the false prophet will be persons. They will head the revived Holy Roman empire (looking like the EU will become that).

The USA does not rule the world. We can only influence affairs within foreign nations. The world power to emerge will have the ability to force its will within nations. The UN is working to become this as most every treaty they want nations to sign compels them to stay in line with the UN mandates on any issue they've legislated on.

The global religious ethic will be panthiesm and humanism. The move being done now is to declare all religions equal, and any denomination or sect that won't acknolwedge the validity of other faiths is to be eradicated as dangerous to humanity.

No. The mark is what you must take to participate in the global economic system. The US Dollar is not a global currency by any argument. In fact, the US economy is in very bad shape.

I think God created the USA to be a safe haven for truth. In the end, freedom of religion will not exist. Devout Christians will be singled out for persecution. The only hope for anyone going on in these times would come from a place that has the military power to refuse to partake in a global system and respects such liberties. Bible prophecy identifies the USA in the endtime, but it's unclear if we survive to see the end or not. It's clear we are not part of the global system that emerges in the end.

No. We might be triggering the event that will lead to the fulfilment of the 6th trumpet of Revelation (1/3 of humanity killed). This war won't start the WAR, but given world affairs, it will be the trigger that sends the world into WAR. Another nation will likey start lobbing heavy ammo around and get things out of control while we're busy in Iraq.

Armeggeddon is the very final battle of this age when the world government comes in force against Israel to crush it. Just as they are about to fall, Jesus returns and slaughters the armies opposing Israel. After that, the kings of this world will be put under Jesus' authority for the next 1,000 years.

This is actually in the bible or this is bible code?
 
Re: Ah....

Baby Gorilla said:
This explains a lot. :)

A cult isn't as broadly defined as you see it. A legitimate faith can believe in an omnipotent God that has His standards that we are expected to adhere to.

Cults involve control of members by those in leadership....a denial of free will. Many monotheistic faiths do not have this element, and when found, it is a rare exception where a church leader is seeking power for himself.

I find that a cult is usually defined as a religious sect that is small. Once It has millions of members and has been around for a while people stop calling it a cult and start calling it a religion.

If God has His standards that we are expected to adhere to then we don't have free will. I will decide my own standards. If those standards differ from Christian standards then I am not a "sinner". To say that a set of beliefs/opinions are God's word is inherently controlling.

This control and manipulation is not a rare exception. It is the basis of all religions.

In any case I don't want to get into a religious debate.
 
Re: refutation of premillennial thought

Rogue Warrior said:
Premillennialism is another black eye to the name Christian. The rature, 1000 years, tribulation, etc. are misapplication of scripture to say the least.

De-bunk your belief! Click here

http://www.bible.ca/rapture.htm

Well then perhaps Islam is the antichrist. Islam does not recognise that Jesus is the son of God. In fact this claim is considered blasphemous by Muslims.
 
Re: Re: Short answers....

Needhelp said:


This is actually in the bible or this is bible code?
Baby Gorilla rather effectivly summarized the New Testament chapter of "Revelations of St. John".
It's all there.
 
Re: Re: refutation of premillennial thought

HansNZ said:


Well then perhaps Islam is the antichrist. Islam does not recognise that Jesus is the son of God. In fact this claim is considered blasphemous by Muslims.

Revelations makes it pretty clear the Antichrist is a demonically possessed human in a position of both religious and political authority.
Something like if the Vatican Pope became the head of the EU.
 
Anything opposing Christ is anti-Christ.

The anti-Christ is a form. Example :Islam denies Christ is the son of God. Thus, anti. Anti-Christ is not what you have seen at the movies/TV. Thats entertainment.

You think God's way is controlling? Let me ask you, what do you live for and what do you do in order to attain it? How would you view yourself if you don't attain it?

Ultimately, we all serve something we hold it high esteem. Whats at the top of your list? Your answer = what controls you.

By the way, we do have free will.
 
Re: Re: Re: Short answers....

john937 said:

Baby Gorilla rather effectivly summarized the New Testament chapter of "Revelations of St. John".
It's all there.

Yea, and did a very good job. The only part that I was no aware of was that a "mark" means to be a cut or a slice in the skin. Man, that chip is it(the mark). I mean the projections for the company that makes the digital angel are astronomical and the reason why is because the antichristi is going to force everyone to take one.

ou know another that is scary. Take a look the around the next grocery store you go into. I mean there are hundreds of cameras everywhere. I mean why would a grocery store go to that expense to catch a few shop lifters? I don't think that is the reason. I think it is too catch people who have not taken the mark that are stealing food to survive.
 
WODIN said:
Really? Can you list em and when these were fullfilled? I really would like to here this. No kidding.

I found the info I wanted. However it's written down and not in text format (it's not stuff pulled from the internet).

This is very good stuff & I will post this at the first of the week (when I return to work and actually have time to type it).

It identifies ALL prophecies in the past that have been fulfilled and those yet to come. Also states where we currently are in relation to prophecy & explains how we are very near to the last days before the Rapture & uses scripture & current events to back it all up.

so stay tuned..........
 
Rogue Warrior said:
Anything opposing Christ is anti-Christ.

The anti-Christ is a form. Example :Islam denies Christ is the son of God. Thus, anti. Anti-Christ is not what you have seen at the movies/TV. Thats entertainment.

You think God's way is controlling? Let me ask you, what do you live for and what do you do in order to attain it? How would you view yourself if you don't attain it?

Ultimately, we all serve something we hold it high esteem. Whats at the top of your list? Your answer = what controls you.

By the way, we do have free will.

How do you know it is God's way? Because the bible says so? If this is the case then you have surrendered your free will to the authors of that book.

Have you ever met a member of a cult who believes (s)he is being controlled? I rest my case.
 
Accepting something does not constitute surrender of free will.

Christ died for all that we may be saved by grace. We can't add to the ultimate sacrifice because it is all sufficient.

We CHOOSE to live for Him or not live for Him. This choice is perpetual until He comes again or we die which ever comes first.

We do not turn into robots when we convert to Christ. In fact, the apostles warn many deciples from "falling away" from the teachings of Christ. If it could not happen, they would not need to warn them.
 
HansNZ said:


How do you know it is God's way? Because the bible says so? If this is the case then you have surrendered your free will to the authors of that book.

Have you ever met a member of a cult who believes (s)he is being controlled? I rest my case.

The arthor of the book was God. He just used men as secretaries to write it. And you are not surrending your free will you still have a choice to commit sins or not. People always look at God as just a mean rule maker. That is not what God is at all. God is simply the most loving intelligent father a kid could have. Did you think your dad was mean when he told you not to touch the stove yea probably at the time but later you found out that he was right it would hurt if you did it.

Same thing as God since He is an all knowing smart God. He knows what things are good for you and what are bad. Look at just a couple of the rules. Don't commit adultry. If you do, you could possibly lose your wife, kids and half of your possession not to mention hurting terribly the person you commited your faithfulness to when you got married.

Seems like a good rule to me. What about you?

Another one do not be drunken with wine. And what happens when you get drunk you act like a fool and do and say some things you regret later. And you get this nasty little thing they call a hangover the next day . Again, it seems like a very wise rule to me. What about you?

Tell me any rule in the Bible that you do not agree with and I'll show you the cosequences of not following that rule.

Like I said, try looking at God as the perfect Father instead of some pie in the sky dictator and He will make more sense to you.
 
Rogue Warrior said:
Accepting something does not constitute surrender of free will.

Christ died for all that we may be saved by grace. We can't add to the ultimate sacrifice because it is all sufficient.

We CHOOSE to live for Him or not live for Him. This choice is perpetual until He comes again or we die which ever comes first.

We do not turn into robots when we convert to Christ. In fact, the apostles warn many deciples from "falling away" from the teachings of Christ. If it could not happen, they would not need to warn them.

If you have accepted someone's notion that you must behave or believe certain things otherwise you are a sinner then you have lost your free will.
 
So far the most accurate and intellegent answer awards go to; the logic king - ie .. my main man Warik, the nordstromator - busting out the cold hard truth, and lets not forget about the Hansmeister who's definitely holding his own, with style. To the other less than knowledables thumping on the holy book of placebos, fiction is fun but at the end of the day reality unfortunately always seems to prevail.

I'm not sure if the original inquiry was relating to the destruction of humans or the earth, but earth will have run its coarse after all of the sol's H fuel get fused into He and swells into a red giant to consume the near by terrestrial planets, but we really wont be around for that light show, and will have died regardless close to 8 minutes post-burnout as no sun, no electromagnetic radiation, no heat, no plants, no oxygen, destroyed ozone = no life.

Humans biggest threat, aside from our own retarded selves, would be the eventual ELE asteroid impact. Its happened 6-7 times before, and will again, variable populations get vamped and restructured. Homo sapiens are so far the farthest any animal on this planet has evolved on earth’s watch, and could be the last depending on what numbers our shooting gallery of a universe has planned. Permian was @ 96%. To get a very rough frequency estimate [*] , you could take all the previous extinction dates to get the mean average and compare the last event to our present date. Because just like our old dino brolys knew all too well, when that shit happens - its game over.
 
Actually curling, those cameras you see at the grocery store.....theyre there for a good reason. People steal from a grocery store probably about 5 times more than any department store, etc.... I used to work LP for dominicks, in Hanover Park, IL no less, and it was a nightmare. People used to just load up carts and baskets FULL of fresh meats and sea foods, not to mention liquor(not to be racist, but hennesy, cognac...never saw a white person even touch the bottles on the shelf, and rarely ever saw a back person try to pay for it), baby formula(stolen to sell cheap in ghettos, plus it is mixed in with cocaine and heroin to make the drug less pure, and to sell more), film, the expensive razor blade cartriges...and so on. im talking in the 7 months i was at that one store, 50 hours a week in a 24 hour store, I prevented close to 75,000 dollars worth of theft. now imagine what i missed, wasnt there for, who slipped by me. Sensormatics securrity system i think is close to 100,000 plus labor to set up for dominicks, i was making 10 an hour.....I think the cost is worth it at that rate, dont you think?

Back to the subject at hand, reading a little bit of Nostradamus, I read about this final pope, the false prophet. According to the man himself, this pope would be none other than...french. That seems to fit huh? LOL

I look at the bible as the worlds oldest game of telephone. Gods word is pure, true, perfect. But the bible isnt written by God, its written by man, who is imperfect, and has been known to use anything he can go put himself in a position of power...just some food for thought.
 
Hmmm....

HansNZ said:
If you have accepted someone's notion that you must behave or believe certain things otherwise you are a sinner then you have lost your free will.
I do respect your views, but don't you see the irony of your position?

If I accept what you are contending above as correct, consider this.

Let's say as some would contend, Lucifer is the true god. I reject Lucifer because I choose to believe Jehovah is the true God. Wouldn't that make me a "sinner" according to Satanists? So either I still have free will, or agnostics are the only ones who still have "free will."
 
Needhelp said:
How exactly is the United States refered to in the book of revelations?
And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Daniel 7:3-7 (KJV)
In prophecy, God uses beasts to symbolize kingdoms.

"The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it."

The official symbol of England is the lion. The official symbol of the USA is the American Bald Eagle. The USA came out of England and became independant via the Revolutionary War. Unlike any other nation, when the USA conquers an enemy, we turn around and rebuild that nation. We give more humanitarian aid than any other nation on earth. We also have the Uncle Sam persona.

"And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh."

The bear is the known symbol of Russia (and the Soviet Union). Russia has three territories in dispute with China on one side.

"After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it."

Germany being the leopard is harder to see. This beast has four heads and four wings. It is also given dominion. Germany is in it's fourth reich today. It is also a leader in European economic matters.

"After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns."

This beast is currently emerging, but not yet identified. It is believed to be the UN, but the ten horns indicates ten powers will lead it. This pattern has yet to be understood, but the UN is far from being fully formed. The UN is responsible for more destruction in the world than any other nation. In the name of peace, they have caused more conflict than anyone else.

ALSO, FOR FREE....

The four horsemen of the apocalypse....

Black ... The offical color of capitalism
White ... The offical color of Roman Catholicism
Red ... The official color of communism/socialism
Death/Green ... The official color of Islam

In other words....the four powers dominant in the world when the end comes/Jesus returns.
 
Revelation 9

14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." ---

Interesting......The mouth of the Euphrates is in Turkey.[

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Didn't GW start this whole thing about a year ago...

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them

Sounds about right for the troop deployments going on with this coaltion

17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

Breastplates might be kevlar.
Horses migh be Humvees with missle mounts.




18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

sounds like a black hawk helicopter to me.....
 
You guys have gone a little off the deep end with your predictions.

Remember, when you read the bible consider the audiance and the purpose of the delivered message.

Think about it. Why would people 2000 years ago need to know about world events today?

Lets look at what sound interpretation of scripture had revealed to people of that day.

The lion represented Babylon (winged lions have been recovered from babylonian ruins)

The bear that ravaged the lion was Medo-Persia.

leopard was Greece (the swiftness of Alexander the great).

The eagle represented Rome.

Many other claims made above are nothing more than bogus. I can go over more in detail, but i must go to work.

Please, be careful where you get your info. Test all things with scholarly studies.
 
Spirit of error....

Rogue Warrior said:
....Remember, when you read the bible consider the audiance and the purpose of the delivered message.

Think about it. Why would people 2000 years ago need to know about world events today?....
Your views on the beasts of Daniel and Revelation have long been debunked as error.

The endtime prophecies were written for the last generation, not the people living 2,000 years ago.

Much error is taught on this because many "scholars" insist that they know what the Bible means and that's the explanation they came up with.
 
BG, your views defy logic.

The only prophacy we have to look forward to is Christ second coming which He himself proclaimed, no man knows the hour.

People have tried to do for years what you are doing and have failed. Everytime there was a major war people tried to stick the latest headline behind some scripture that was woefully out of context.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have predicted the second coming of Christ several times and failed. (1914 & 1975) Many who criticize Jw's for this, are guilty of exactly the same thing with their "signs of the times" speculation. Both groups use exactly the same passages to predict exactly the same thing: the second coming. Both groups are wrong. The Bible passages they use have absolutely nothing to do with the second coming but are ripped completely out of context!
A man wanted to study the Bible, so he placed his Bible on his lap & prayed for guidance. He closed his eyes, opened the Bible at random then dropped his index finder anywhere on the page. This he did three times. Here was the result. 1. "Judas went and hung himself" 2. "go and do likewise" 3. "what you do, do quickly". This kind of random collection of totally unrelated scriptures is exactly what is done to try to prove their point on current signs and Bible prophecy. The subject is not really that difficult if it is approached with care.



Just out of curiosity, what makes you think this is the last generation?
 
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Okay brolys, I began typing some of this info on prophecy & why it's believed we are living in the end of time (pre-rapture). There is simply way too much for me to type, so I am typing & summarizing some of the most significant and particular info that relates to some of our discussions in this thread.

_____

Let me start by giving 'major' events both past & yet to come that has either been fulfilled or will be fulfilled in the future. (beginning to end)

Death enter the human race
(Gen. 6-8, Gen 2:17)
Birth of the jewish nation
(Gen. 9:26; 12:2; 17:4-6)
Israel's enslavement in and exodus from Eqypt
(Gen. 15:13,14,16; Ex. 3:8; 6:6)
Israel receives the Law and enters the Promised Land
(Gen 15:18-21; Ex. 3:12; 15:14-16; 17:14-16; 23:29,30 Num. 14:23,32-35 Deut. 7:1-5,17-26 Josh. 1:6 Judg. 1:2)
Birth if Kingdom of Israel
(Deut. 17:14 1Sam. 13:14;15:23,28; 25:30,31 2Sam. 7:12, 13)
The Kingdom divided
(1Kin. 11:11-13, 30-32)
Kingdom of Israel falls
(Hos. 1:4-6; 2:11-13; 10:4-8 Amos 3:11,12; 5:2, 3, 27 Mic. 1:3-7)
Judah's worship of God is restored
(1Kin. 13:2,3)
Judah falls to Babylon
(Deut. 29:22-28 Is. 2:6-21; 6:11, 12; 39:6,7 Jer 5:19; 18:15-17; 21:7; 32:28-32 Ezek. 5:11-17; 7:1-27 Amos 2:4,5 Mic 3:12 Hab 1:5-11 Zeph 1:4-18)
Remnant of Judah returns from exile
(Is. 1:9; :13; 43:5-7 Jer 3:18; 16:14,15; 25:11; 29:10 Ezek 11:17; 34:11-16; 36:22-24 Mic 4:10 Hab 3:16-19 Zeph 3:20 Zech 8:7,8; 10:9,10)
The temple is restored
(Jer 27:22 Obad 17 Hag 2:23 Zech 1:16; 4:8-10; 6:15; 8:9)
Birth of Christ the Messiah
(Is 6:1; 7:14; 9:6; 61:1-3 Dan 9:25 Mic 5:2 Mal. 3:1)
Birth and ministry of Christ
(Is 6:1;7:14; 9:6, 7; 11:1-3; 61:1-3 Jer 31:15 Mic 5:2 John 1:26-34)
Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension of Christ
(Gen 3:15 Ps 22:1, 7,8,14, 16-18; 34:20; 69:21 Is 50:6; 53:1-12 Dan 9:24-27 Zech 9:9; 11:12,13)
Pentecost and Descent of the Holy Spirit
(Joel 2:28-32 Luke 24:49 John 16:7-15)
Destruction of Jerusalem
(Dan 9:26 Matt 24:2)
Return of the Jews
(Is 11:11-16; 60:8-16 Jer 3:18; 16:14,15; 23:3-8; 31:8 Ezek 20:40-44; 34:11-28; 36:24-32; 37:1-28 Hos 3:4,5; 6:1,2 Amos 9:11,12)
Rapture
(1Cor 15:51,52 1Thess 4:16-18)
Judgement seat of Christ
(1Cor 3:13-15 2Cor 5:4,10 1Pet 5:4)
Tribulation
(Is 2:19-21; 28:20,21 Dan 12:1 Joel 2:1-11 Matt 24:4-26 Rev. 6:1-19:6)
Armageddon
(Is 11:4,5; 63:1-6 Ezek 39:1-29 Joel 3:1-17 Zeph 3:8 Zech 14:1-3 Rev 19:17-21)
Second coming of Christ
(Dan 7:9-14 Zech 12:9-14; 14:4-11 Mal 3:1-3; 4:1-6 Matt 24:27-30 Rev 19:11-16)
Judgement of Nations
(Matt 25:31-46)
The Millennium
(Ps 8:6 Is 2:2-4; 11:4-10; 35:1-10 Jer 31:27-34; 33:12-26 Ezek 36:33-38; 40:1-48:35 Joel 2:21-27; 3:18-21 Amos 9:13-15 Mic 4:1-7 Hab 2:14 Zeph 3:20 Hag 2:6-9 Zech 8:3,4; 14:16-21 rev 20:4-10)
Great White Throne Judgement
(Rev 20:11-14)
Destruction of the earth by fire
(2Pet 3:5-13 Rev 20:11; 21:1)
New Jerusalem
(Is 60:13-22; 65:17; 66:22 Rev 21:1-22:5)

_____

Now, to be more precise, there are over 8,300 verses in the Bible which contain predictive prophecy.
I have a list of over 600 of these currently. Again, I am not going to type hundreds of prophetic scriptures and thier fulfillment scriptures also. (I have not got that much time).

_____

How do we know we are living in the last days before the second coming of Christ?

1. Knowledge shall increase and people will travel to and fro (Dan. 12:4) Just look at how much knowledge has increased in the past few decades. I can't recall exactly, but it took several hundreds of years for knowledge to double. Now it doubles every 10 months or so. Look at travel, we now have supersonic planes,
automobiles, space shuttles, monorail speed trains, etc. From the Garden of Eden until 1900, men walked or rode horses. Within just a few years, mankind has invented all the above travel methods mentioned above.

2. The prophet Zechariah didn't know how to describe what he say in his vision, so he called it a plague. This "plague" was sent out to all who came to fight against Jerusalem in the last days.
The plague would consume a man's flesh while he was left standing. His eyes would dissolve in their sockets and his tongue would dissolve in his mouth. (Zech. 14:12-15) This was a mystery until the invention of the atomic bomb which can produce a 150 million Fahrenheit temperature in one millionth of a second! Atomic, nuclear, neutron weaponry will be used in the Middle East.

3. In the last days, there will be famines and pestilence. (Matt. 24:7,8) Although I don't believe this has fully hapened yet, it is ever increasing. The starving is on an increase. Also look at all the new & widespread diseases that have occured recently.

4. Mass deception: Jesus warned "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name....and will
deceive many....for false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect" (Matt. 24:4,5,24). Secular humanism, new age theroies and philosophies are all deception. The apostate church, which has a form of godliness, but denies the power of God, is deception.

5. As I described in a previous post, the two witnesses in Revelation whom are executed and whos dead bodies are seen for 3 1/2 days by all of the world at once. This was thought of as impossible until the inventions of televisions, satellites, and internet. This could never had happened in any other
previous times where people thought the end of the world was coming, not even 30 years ago. It is now, however, very possible.

6. Jesus said in Matthew, "But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (Matt. 24:36,37). In the days of Noah, according to Genesis, man's wickedness on the earth was very great and that "every intent o fthe thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Gen. 6:5). I think the current news headlines speak volumes on this subject, so I won't elaborate.

7. Probably the one of the most important prophecies to ever come true was the rebirth of Israel. Every major prophet in the Old Testament testified that God would bring the Jewish people out of their Gentile graves (nations) and bring them back to Israel before the coming of the Lord. This is also prophesied in Isaiah 66:8. This happened in May 1948.

8. The bible predicts that Jerusalem will not be under Gentile rule in the last days. The Jewish people did not control the Holy City from 70 A.D. (when Romans took control) until the Six-Day War of 1967. Jesus said that Jerusalem would be "trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke 21:24). king David said, "For the Lord shall build up Zion (Jerusalem); He shall appear in his glory" (Ps. 102:16). Jerusalem is under Jewish control for the first time in nearly two thousand years.

_____

There is also a lot of info I'd like to share concerning the battle of Armageddon (when nations come against Israel). I may type this if I get the time to.

_____

references: King James Version Bible, John C. Hagee Prophecy Study Bible, Jack Van Impe Ministries various publications, Dr David Jerimiah publications, and various excerpts from other sources
 
Error....

Rogue Warrior said:
....The only prophacy we have to look forward to is Christ second coming which He himself proclaimed, no man knows the hour.

People have tried to do for years what you are doing and have failed....
To be brief (gotta get to something soon), Jesus said no man could know THE DAY OR HOUR, but the Bible makes it clear that God intends His people to be aware of the time and season of Jesus' return. Reason? The power of evil to deceive will be so powerful in the end that Christians need to be prepared.

If you study scripture, you can't nail down the day or hour of Jesus' return. You can't even fortell a year. However, it is clear that Jesus returns at the battle of Armageddon. This happens at the end of Daniel's 70th week (last 7 years). At the beginning of this seven years is the confirmation of a covenant that enables Israel to build it's third temple.

Don't know the day or hour? Yep.

Know when we're in the last 7 years? Yep.

No conflicts.

Past people try to set dates without understanding prophecy. Oh, and the Jehovah Witness is a schizm of Christianity full of unbiblical doctrine and practices....not surprised at the result.
 
Re: Error....

Baby Gorilla said:
.

If you study scripture, you can't nail down the day or hour of Jesus' return. You can't even fortell a year. However, it is clear that Jesus returns at the battle of Armageddon. This happens at the end of Daniel's 70th week (last 7 years). At the beginning of this seven years is the confirmation of a covenant that enables Israel to build it's third temple.


Sorry for the stupid question but what is the significance of Daniel's 70th week? Who is Daniel? Where are Israels 2 other temples? So your saying that when Israel builds it's third temple when Jesus returns?
 
Re: Re: Error....

FreakMonster said:
Sorry for the stupid question but what is the significance of Daniel's 70th week? Who is Daniel? Where are Israels 2 other temples? So your saying that when Israel builds it's third temple when Jesus returns?
Daniel Chaper 9 details this....
And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;
Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Dan 9:20-27 (KJV)
The "week" spoken of here are 7-year periods. 69 have passed, one remains. The consistency is the Jewish Temple.

The temple was constructed on the Temple Mount (acheologically proven in spite of some people's effort to propagandize otherwise). It was destroyed when Israel went into captivity in Babylon. The temple was rebuilt (2nd temple). That one was destroyed shortly after Jesus (the Messiah) was crucified.

One temple remains that must be built on the Temple Mount. This third temple comes at the end of human history (before Jesus returns to rule). When you see a treaty or agreement that makes a "lasting" peace between Palestinians and Israel and enables the Temple Mount to be shared, you will know two things....

1. We are now in the last 7 years before Jesus returns (more or less).

2. The man who made the peace agreement possible is very likely the Antichrist. This would be confrimed 3 1/2 years later when the temple is completed, animal sacrifice resumes, and this man enters the temple, stops the animal sacrificing, and tells Israel to worship him as god.

Powerful stuff if you see it with understanding. The whole humanistic and atheistic world is trying to forge peace in the Middle East. They are fulfilling Bible prophecy and don't even realize it. Why is a chunk of dirt smaller than the size of Rhode Island the biggest disputed over real estate in the entire world? It's because it's a spiritual matter. What happens in the spiritual reflects and manifests in the world. Satan wants for himself what God has claimed as His own. When God chose to place His name in Jerusalem, it became Satan's top priority to claim it for himself. Hence all the wars fought over that little nation.
 
The 70 weeks have already been fulfilled:

* 160AD Clement of Alexandria (On Daniel 9:24-27 ; The 'Seventy Weeks' of Daniel) "And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfillment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place." (Miscellanies 1:21)
* 160AD Tertullian "Vespasian, in the first year of his empire, subdues the Jews in war; and there are made lii years, vi months. For he reigned xi years. And thus, in the day of their storming, the Jews fulfilled the lxx hebdomads predicted in Daniel ." (An Answer to the Jews 8.) (On the Seventy Weeks of Daniel)
* 200AD Hippolytus of Rome (70 weeks) "21. For this reason, then, the angel says to Daniel, "Seal the words, for the vision is until the end of the time." But to Christ it was not said "seal," but "loose" the things bound of old; in order that, by His grace, we might know the will of the Father, and believe upon Him whom He has sent for the salvation of men, Jesus our Lord. He says, therefore, "They shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall; "which in reality took place. For the people returned and built the city, and the temple, and the wall round about. Then he says: "After threescore and two weeks the times will be fulfilled, and one week will make a covenant with many; and in the midst (half) of the week sacrifice and oblation will be removed, and in the temple will be the abomination of desolations." 22. For when the threescore and two weeks are fulfilled, and Christ is come, and the Gospel is preached in every place, the times being then accomplished, there will remain only one week, the last, in which Elias will appear, and Enoch, and in the midst of it the abomination of desolation will be manifested, 179 viz., Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world. And when he comes, the sacrifice and oblation will be removed, which now are offered to God in every place by the nations. These things being thus recounted, the prophet again describes another vision to us. For he had no other care save to be accurately instructed in all things that are to be, and to prove himself an instructor in such." (The interpretation by Hippolytus, (bishop) of Rome, of the visions of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar, taken in conjunction, paragraphs 21-22)
* 200AD Hippolytus of Rome (On The "Iron Kingdom" of Daniel 7) "Speak with me, O blessed Daniel. Give me full assurance, I beseech thee. Thou dost prophesy concerning the lioness in Babylon; for thou wast a captive there. Thou hast unfolded the future regarding the bear; for thou wast still in the world, and didst see the things come to pass. Then thou speakest to me of the leopard; and whence canst thou know this, for thou art already gone to thy rest? Who instructed thee to announce these things, but He who formed thee in (from ) thy mother's womb? That is God, thou sayest. Thou hast spoken indeed, and that not falsely. The leopard has arisen; the he-goat is come; he hath broken his horns in pieces; he hath stamped upon him with his feet. He has been exalted by his fall; (the) four horns have come up from under that one. Rejoice, blessed Daniel! thou hast not been in error: all these things have come to pass. ? "After this again thou hast told me of the beast dreadful and terrible. 'It had iron teeth and claws of brass: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it.' Already the iron rules; already it subdues and breaks all in pieces; already it brings all the unwilling into subjection; already we see these things ourselves. Now we glorify God, being instructed by thee." (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist," Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. V, p. 210, pars. 32, 33. )
* 200AD Hippolytus of Rome (70 weeks) 43. With respect, then, to the particular judgment in the torments that are to come upon it in the last times by the hand of the tyrants who shall arise then, the clearest statement has been given in these passages. But it becomes us further diligently to examine and set forth the period at which these things shall come to pass, and how the little horn shall spring up in their midst. For when the legs of iron have issued in the feet and toes, according to the similitude of the image and that of the terrible beast, as has been shown in the above, (then shall be the time) when the iron and the clay shall be mingled together. Now Daniel will set forth this subject to us. For he says, "And one week will make a covenant with many, and it shall be that in the midst (half) of the week my sacrifice and oblation shall cease." By one week, therefore, he meant the last week which is to be at the end of the whole world of which week the two prophets Enoch and Elias will take up the half. For they will preach 1, 260 days clothed in sackcloth, proclaiming repentance to the people and to all the nations. (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist," Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. V, p. 210, pars. 43.)
* 225AD Origen "The weeks of years, also, which the prophet Daniel had predicted, extending to the leadership of Christ, have been fulfilled" (Principles, 4:1:5). (On the Seventy Weeks of Daniel)
* 403AD Sulpcius Severus (On Daniel's Seventy Weeks) "But from the restoration of the temple to its destruction, which was completed by Titus under Vespasian, when Augustus was consul, there was a period of four hundred and eighty-three years. That was formerly predicted by Daniel, who announced that from the restoration of the temple to its overthrow there would elapse seventy and nine weeks. Now, from the date of the captivity of the Jews until the time of the restoration of the city, there were two hundred and sixty years." (p. 254, ch. 11, Sacred History)
 
Iraq in prophacy?

The invasion of Kuwait by Iraq has set off a barrage of speculations and predictions by our purblind seers and self-inspired prophets.

1. Pat Robertson told the viewers of his "700 Club" television show that the confrontation with Iraq, coupled with recriminations against Israel over the shooting at the Temple Mount, point to fulfillment of Bible prophecies that the nations of the world are going to come against Israel.'
2. Jack Van Impe told his national TV audience that four major prophecies in the Bible pinpoint Iraq and the Persian Gulf as the prelude to the Battle of Armageddon, a conflict he says will begin at the Euphrates River in Iraq.' Van Impe believes that Iraq is modern Babylon.
3. Ken Fleming, a professor at Emmaus Bible College, Dubuque, Iowa, identifies Iraq as the prophetic Babylon of Scripture. He wrote, "Prophetically, in the future Babylon will once again be a great nation. The Bible foresees that it will prostitute its political and religious and commercial power in association with a world leader called The Beast (Rev. 14:8-9; 17:11-12). . . Likewise we note things of interest in Iraq (Babylon) which may have a bearing on the approach of the events surrounding the Second Coming."'
4. Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, Editor-in-Chief of Pulpit Helps, advertises a cassette of his entitled, "Iraq in Prophecy." The ad states, "These lessons provide the biblical information to identify Iraq as the modern Babylon."

Is Iraq modern Babylon? Is Iraq in Bible prophecy? It is true that Iraq is located in the area that was once occupied by ancient Babylonia, but that proves nothing, unless the Bible teaches that Babylon would be revived once again into another nation, specifically in the nation of Iraq. This concept we will clearly show is without biblical support, being concocted in the wild imaginations of men.

Babylon's Past Glory

Babylon was situated on the Euphrates River, about 50 miles south of modern Baghdad, the capital of Iraq. Baghdad is located on the Tigris River, approximately 40 miles east of the Euphrates. The Tower of Babel was built there and Hammurabi, the great lawgiver, reigned there in the nineteenth century before Christ. It was from Ur in Babylonia that God called Abraham to go into a land that he would show him.

In the Neo-Babylonia era, Nebuchadnezzar was the ruler (605-562 B.C.) in the height of its glory. It was during his

time that Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed (586 B.C.) and the Jews were taken captive for 70 years. From there Daniel was prime minister and from there Cyrus the Persian issued an edict allowing Jews to return to their homeland. It was there that Alexander the Great died (323 B.C.), while planning a new capital. Babylon was overthrown in 539 B.C. by the Medo-Persians.

Babylon's Rebirth

After hundreds of years of lying in oblivion, we are now told that ancient Babylon has been reincarnated in modern Iraq. They tell us that over the past ten years Saddam Hussein, Dictator of Iraq, has spent enormous sums of money in restoring many historical sites, such as the Southern Palace of Nebuchadnezzar, the Processional Way and the Ishtar Gate.

We are informed that Hussein wants to restore Babylon as a symbol of the greatness of the people of Mesopotamia, making it a prime attraction of the Middle East. Hussein would like to move his capital to Babylon, it is reported, in the future. He considers himself as a twentieth century Nebuchadnezzar, leader of a strong empire.

Millennialists reason that since prophecies about Babylon have not been fulfilled, namely, Isaiah 13, 14; Jeremiah 50,51 and Revelation 17,18, we are to look to Iraq for their completion. But let us focus our attention on the prophecies about Babylon and see whether or not they have been fulfilled.

Isaiah and Babylon

The prophet Isaiah, through inspiration, looked beyond 150 years into the future and saw the downfall of Babylon. Listen to him: "The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see. . . . Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty" (13:1,6).

God's judgment upon Babylon is depicted in vivid, figurative language as "the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine" (13: 10). Jesus employs identical language in foretelling the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. (Matt. 24:29). These symbolic expressions denote the fall of political rulers, the destruction of nations and the termination of their government (cf. Joel 2: 10; 3:15-16).

Using the Medes as his instrument (13:17), God said Babylon would be as when he "overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall neither be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch his tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there" (13:19-20). This does not sound like there is going to be a revival of the Babylonian Empire. God said it was finished, forever!

In Isaiah 14:21-22 God says that Babylon will never rise again to possess the land, nor build cities. God will cut off from Babylon the name, remnant, and son, and nephew. In v. 23 it would be swept with the "besom of destruction." A besom is a small broom to sweep out corners and clear out trash. In light of Isaiah's declaration, Saddam Hussein is not the modern Nebuchadnezzar and the Iraqi people are not the Babylonian nation, millennialists to the contrary.

Jeremiah and Babylon

It is claimed that Jeremiah's prophecy concerning Babylon in chapters 50, 51 has not been fulfilled because the city of Babylon was to be left without inhabitants as the result of being overwhelmed by a horde of great nations from the north (50:1-10). Babylon did not cease immediately to have inhabitants when Cyrus captured the city in 539 B.C., hence, it is concluded that the prophecy remains to be fulfilled. In fact, there was no fighting when Babylon fell.

Nobody is saying that Babylon was immediately ravaged after its capture by Cyrus. But both Isaiah and Jeremiah's prophecies were totally fulfilled concerning the city shortly after Alexander the Great's untimely death in Babylon in 323 B.C. The city, because of a series of events, was weakened and allowed to decay. McClintock and Strong state the following:

The great city of Seleucia, which soon after arose in its neighborhood, not only drew away its population, but was actually constructed of materials derived from its buildings I . . . Since then Babylon has been a quarry from which all the tribes in the vicinity have perpetually derived the bricks with which they have built their cities. . . . The "great city," "the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency," has thus emphatically "become heaps" (Jer. 51:37) - she is truly "an astonishment and a hissing, without an inhabitant" (1:606).



Jeremiah's prophecy has Babylon invaded by great nations from the north (50:9). Those stationed in Saudi Arabia do not fit this description. Too, the northern armies would use the bow and arrow, lances and ride upon horses (50:9, 14,42). 1 don't think the United States and its allies will restort to such antiquated weaponry to fight Saddam Hussein and his guns, missiles, tanks, poison gas and planes.

Millennialists also argue that the prophecy pertaining to Babylon in Jeremiah 50,51 has not come to pass because the children of Israel and the children of Judah are to be restored to their homeland (50:4-5), which, they tell us, did not materialize when the remnant returned under Zerubbabel in 536 B.C. Israel is to be restored after the defeat of Babylon. Israel has not been fully restored, hence, Babylon must yet be defeated, they surmise.

But the Jews have been restored. Jeremiah stated, "For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you to return to this place" (Jer. 29:10). Notice that the Jews would return after 70 years to this place. Jeremiah did not say, " 1948, " or "the 20th century," but "after seventy years" they would return to this place. Ezra 1: 1 and 2:1 show this was fulfilled. They came to Zion under Zerubbabel, and others later with Ezra, joining themselves together in a perpetual covenant (50:4-5).

If Babylon in Jeremiah 50,51 is Iraq, then why does Jeremiah tell Israel to "flee out of the midst of Babylon" (51:6) when there is probably not one Jew today within a hundred miles of Iraq? What will Jews be doing in Iraq?

Revelation and Babylon

Ken Flemming said, "Jeremiah's prophetic vision of Babylon is clearly linked to John's in Revelation 17 and 18 regarding events that take place during the great tribulation. Thus we look for a literal Babylon of world importance during the tribulation. 114

In Revelation 17:5 Babylon is designed as "Mystery Babylon. " A.T. Robertson says in regard to "mystery" (musterion), "Babylon is to be interpreted mystically or spiritually . . . for Rome" (Word Pictures, Vol. 6, p. 430). The wickedness of ancient Babylon is personified in Rome, the oppressor of the church when John wrote Revelation.

The characteristics ascribed to the Babylon of Revelation fit better the city of Rome than any other city. (1) Rules over the kings of the earth (17:18). (2) Corrupts the nations (17:2; 18:3; 19:2). (3) Sits upon seven mountains (17:9). Rome sits upon seven hills. (4) Center of the world's merchandise (18:3,11-13). (5) Persecutes the saints (17:6). These traits do not fit Baghdad or Iraq. Only the convoluted logic of premillennial preachers could find Iraq in the book of Revelation, or any other book of the Bible.

Nevertheless, these soothsayers go on confounding and being confounded. They will never stop. Their total failures of the past have not deterred them. They just falsely reinterpret Scripture to fit current events, whether it be a Napoleon, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, or now, Saddarn Hussein.

According to U.S. News & World Reports the Middle East turmoil has sparked a run on end-time prophecies. Hal Lindsey's book, The Late Great Planet Earth, has shot up in sales by 83 percent since August, and Zondervan Publishing House is updating the book, Armageddon, Oil, and the Middle East Crisis by John Walvoord. Other books on the Middle East are selling well. As Jeremiah said, "The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so; and what will ye do in the end thereof" (5:31).

Footnotes

* U.S. News & World Report, Nov. 1990, p. 67.
* Ibid.
* Interest, Dec. 1990, p. 14.
* Ibid., pp. 13-14.

Weldon E. Warnock, Truth Magazine, Feb 7, 1991
 
De-bunking previous post:

First, the word Rapture is not even to be found in the Bible; Nor is the doctrine taught there.

Secondly, the Lord's return will not be. secretive or silent. Revelation 1:7 states that, "every eye shall see him', 1 Thessalonians 4:16, says that His coming will be heralded with, "a shout'. with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God".

Thirdly, the "tribulation" often referred to is based upon an erroneous interpretation of Matthew 24. This "tribulation' was associated with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 according to the first question the Lord answered in Matthew 24:1-3. That "tribulation" did in fact come before that generation passed, Matthew 24:34.

Fourthly, according to the Bible there is but one resurrection and that will include both the good and evil., John 5:28-29, states, "all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth".

Fifthly, based upon the Bible, Christ's Kingdom is not future. It has already been in existence for nearly 2000 years and it is a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly one. Jesus stated it in John 18:336 "My kingdom is not of this world." Christ promised Peter in Matthew 16:18-19-that he could open the doors of the kingdom, and this the apostle exercised in Acts 2:38-47. John, the apostle, stated in Revelation 1:9 that he was "in the Kingdom". Now all of these books were written in the First Century and the kingdom was spoken of as existing then. Mark 9:1 is a passage that definitely puts the beginning of the kingdom in that generation.

Lastly, the idea of a thousand year reign of Christ on earth is a gross distortion of Revelation 20:1-7. This is a highly figurative context within a very symbolic book. The reign viewed in Revelation 20 is not an "earthly" reign of the Lord at all. It is a spiritual reign with victorious saints (Revelation 20:4). In Revelation 6:9-11 these martyred souls were, "underneath the altar", crying for vindication; in Chapter 20, however, they were on, "thrones reigning with their Lord." This was a prophetic indication that Christianity would be triumphant over its enemies. The 1,000 years is likely a symbol of the completeness of that victory. The number 1,000 is used more than 20 times in the book of Revelation, but not in a literal sense. The whole concept of the so-called Rapture contradicts scores of Bible passages of the clearest import.
 
Re: Hmmm....

Baby Gorilla said:
I do respect your views, but don't you see the irony of your position?

If I accept what you are contending above as correct, consider this.

Let's say as some would contend, Lucifer is the true god. I reject Lucifer because I choose to believe Jehovah is the true God. Wouldn't that make me a "sinner" according to Satanists? So either I still have free will, or agnostics are the only ones who still have "free will."

I think you have missed my point. In both cases you have surrendered your free-will. You are assuming that someone has to consider something or the other "God".

What I am suggesting is that people take responsibility for what they believe instead of investing that power in someone else to do on their behalf.

When trying to discover "truth" (in itself a dogmatic concept), instead consider what is said by those you admire to be opinion or advice rather than "truth". Take the validity of everything said by people/ideologies you respect or admire on a case by case basis.

Construct your own idea of what is right instead of becoming dependent on lucifer or Jehovah to do that for you.
 
Scholars?

Rogue Warrior said:
....Lastly, the idea of a thousand year reign of Christ on earth is a gross distortion of Revelation 20:1-7. This is a highly figurative context within a very symbolic book....
If you want to believe that, fine, but there is a counterpoint.

Endtime prophecies were written to those living in the end times. So many "scholars" have claimed that these things are past basically because they could not explain what they meant.

How many saw Jesus fulfill the prophecies concerning Him but rejected Him as the promissed Messiah? LOTS.

Likewise (I contend) is so here. I care little for the opinions of "scholars" solely because I've heard tons of bunk theologically from those who basically are up on their own ego. "I've studied for years on this topic....thus, I am correct." :rolleyes:

I believe Revelation was written in code for many reasons....

1. It could be applied to every generation as a message of hope.
2. It was a way to communicate a message in code.
3. Just as Jesus taught in parables to keep truth from the wicked but not to those seeking, prophecy is often similarly "coded" to prevent it from being revealed to those who have wicked hearts or who are not meant to know the meaning of the prophecies.

Either way, we'll find out soon enough.
 
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