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use of antiestrogens...
- Thread starter Magick69
- Start date
Magick69 said:
It may have a slight effect. dexx decreases SHB G as well. Using UNLEASHED would help as well.
I don't think 6 OXO does anything at all.
Nolva is site specific and not a great anti e and can kill libido.
A natty supp like Derma sustain or POST-CYCLE will accomplish this without making e levels too low. To be sure, have a blood test and see exactly how high your e is and judge from there.
funkyfresh
New member
I also wondered this too. Although you'd want to keep the dose very low right?...say 0.25 or even 0.125mg ED as reducing estrogen levels too much would have a negative effect.
nemesis 2027
New member
I found this in an Anthony Roberts book and website some time back concerning N.olv P.C.T and natural testosterone level. It may not apply to someone younger who has a naturally high level, but in my mid 40's this can help me raise my natural test level on or off a cycle in a small reasonable dosage. I do also understand the risk and yes try to be careful.
Here is the site link: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/post-cycle-therapy.htm
"One of the first drugs we’ll consider for this purpose is what is typically called a SERM. Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, which means that it has the ability to act as an anti-estrogen with regard to certain genes, yet also acting as an estrogen with respect to others. That’s the “selective” part I guess. It does this by blocking gene transcription in some cases, and initiating gene transcription in others (3). Luckily for us, it has estrogenic effects on bones (meaning it increases their density), and blood lipids -meaning it lowers cholesterol-, (4)(5)as well as preventing gynocomastia by preventing estrogen gene transcription in breast tissue. However, it acts as an anti-estrogen in the pituitary, thus increasing LH and FSH, which results in an increase in testosterone. 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Nolvadex actually has quite a few applications for the steroid using athlete. First and foremost, it’s most common use is for the prevention of gynocomastia. Nolvadex does this by actually competing for the receptor site in breast tissue, and binding to it. Thus, we can safely say that the effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue (7).
Estrogen is also important for a properly functioning immune system, and not only that, but your lipid profile (both HDL and LDL) should also show marked improvement with administration of tamoxifen (34).
Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed (35)It can also block a bit of estrogen in the pituitary, which is a great benefit when used with HCG (more on that later) (36)(37). The increase in testosterone Nolvadex can give someone with a dysfunctional is basically that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Why don’t we use Clomid, another SERM? Well, basically because it takes much more to do the same thing. In comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone) (6). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect Nolvadex has at the pituitary. Although both Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary (7), which as you can guess, is less than ideal. It should be avoided for the PCT I’m suggesting…and in fact, avoided in general…it’s simply not as good as Nolvadex."
Here is the site link: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/post-cycle-therapy.htm
"One of the first drugs we’ll consider for this purpose is what is typically called a SERM. Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, which means that it has the ability to act as an anti-estrogen with regard to certain genes, yet also acting as an estrogen with respect to others. That’s the “selective” part I guess. It does this by blocking gene transcription in some cases, and initiating gene transcription in others (3). Luckily for us, it has estrogenic effects on bones (meaning it increases their density), and blood lipids -meaning it lowers cholesterol-, (4)(5)as well as preventing gynocomastia by preventing estrogen gene transcription in breast tissue. However, it acts as an anti-estrogen in the pituitary, thus increasing LH and FSH, which results in an increase in testosterone. 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Nolvadex actually has quite a few applications for the steroid using athlete. First and foremost, it’s most common use is for the prevention of gynocomastia. Nolvadex does this by actually competing for the receptor site in breast tissue, and binding to it. Thus, we can safely say that the effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue (7).
Estrogen is also important for a properly functioning immune system, and not only that, but your lipid profile (both HDL and LDL) should also show marked improvement with administration of tamoxifen (34).
Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed (35)It can also block a bit of estrogen in the pituitary, which is a great benefit when used with HCG (more on that later) (36)(37). The increase in testosterone Nolvadex can give someone with a dysfunctional is basically that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Why don’t we use Clomid, another SERM? Well, basically because it takes much more to do the same thing. In comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone) (6). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect Nolvadex has at the pituitary. Although both Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary (7), which as you can guess, is less than ideal. It should be avoided for the PCT I’m suggesting…and in fact, avoided in general…it’s simply not as good as Nolvadex."
This is one of the few areas where Anthony and I disagree. Nolvaa can increase testosterone UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS. Same deal with Clommid. The problem is, if those conditions aren't optimal, it can have a host of negative effects.
Bottom line, if Nolvaa (or Clomid) increased T enough to grow muscle, people would be using it all the time and making great gains on it. That's just not the case.
Bottom line, if Nolvaa (or Clomid) increased T enough to grow muscle, people would be using it all the time and making great gains on it. That's just not the case.
nemesis 2027
New member
Hey Nelson,
I'm obviously in no postion to debate or challenge nor am I inclined too, and also I am not promoting the use in such a way, but I was just looking at it purely from the standpoint of like you mentioned, "Nolvaa can increase testosterone UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS", and that is exactly how I am pursuing it. I would have never considered gear/N.olv, in my teens and twenties because I was fairly happy with the natural gains I made with the 'percieved' flood of natural test I had back then. Now of course just on the backside of 50, my natural test is low, and just a bump of light gear or natural raise of test through N.olv or clomid gets me where I 'want' to be, and that is not 'great gains' at this point in my life. Just breaking a plateau or old barrier has been very satisfying for me thus far. Believe it or not, it has been working for me. The problem I see of course is I obvioulsy won't use it for a long time, and that I will go back to my natural level then..
But for the vast majority here on this board your words ring loud and clear. This is not the best way, nor is it conventional, but for me it is so far anyway helping with the also low dose of gear.
btw.. Great book, TBBT I just ordered the other night. That's going to help greatly as well.
I'm obviously in no postion to debate or challenge nor am I inclined too, and also I am not promoting the use in such a way, but I was just looking at it purely from the standpoint of like you mentioned, "Nolvaa can increase testosterone UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS", and that is exactly how I am pursuing it. I would have never considered gear/N.olv, in my teens and twenties because I was fairly happy with the natural gains I made with the 'percieved' flood of natural test I had back then. Now of course just on the backside of 50, my natural test is low, and just a bump of light gear or natural raise of test through N.olv or clomid gets me where I 'want' to be, and that is not 'great gains' at this point in my life. Just breaking a plateau or old barrier has been very satisfying for me thus far. Believe it or not, it has been working for me. The problem I see of course is I obvioulsy won't use it for a long time, and that I will go back to my natural level then..
But for the vast majority here on this board your words ring loud and clear. This is not the best way, nor is it conventional, but for me it is so far anyway helping with the also low dose of gear.
btw.. Great book, TBBT I just ordered the other night. That's going to help greatly as well.
nemesis 2027 said:
Glad you liked the book. And glad to hear the therepy is working. Can you give more insight? You had a blood test and had T and e checked and the use of Nolvaa lowered e and increased T ? But you are also taking HR T? How much? That makes it tough to determine. Still, what are your numbers?
nemesis 2027
New member
Bear in mind I am very sensitive to any meds, and they do have sometimes extreme sides or even paradoxical effects on me. It.s always a gamble on anything.. Sometimes fun, sometimes not.
In July I had a blood test for test and not e. I don't have the results here at work for all the readings, but the overall test was 310, at which time I asked for hrt, and was flatly refused because I was in the 'normal range'. Pissed as I was that this normal range may be holding me back from advancing, I sought 'these other means' as the otc supplements weren't cutting it. Btw, I had always 'felt' I had more than normal e already anyway, as I am very moody, too sensitive, have always had slight gynecomastia symtoms without ever touching a chemical, and of course I love dark chocolate. But at the drop of a hat I could rip off someones head, spit down their neck, and then feel bad about it later.. lol..
Being a newb to gear and just looking for a bump to get back any advantage like I had when I was younger (as I mentioned) I tried D.bol at 15 mg ed for 2 weeks, and had bp sky high and splitting headaches, bloated more than I thought, but the gains in strength and mass were noticable to me. Went to the doc for bp meds, didn't work out too well, so I did more research (found many debates/info for and against N.olv & Clomid) on the estrogen/water retention/natural test/bp etc..
After two weeks off the d.bol I started again at 20 mg ed, and again the bp went sky high, so on the 3rd day I took added 20 mg of n.olv for one week and have since dropped it to 10 mg ed. That was three weeks ago. Since that time I have not bloated as much as anticipated, bp is elevated but not 'dangerously' high as before, and the strength and size gains have been not only noticable to me, the tape measure, but also my family and friends noticed in the last week or so. Now the only reason I had another blood work done was a tingly feeling in my balls after 4-5 days on the n.olv. and I was shooting about double my normal load amount. (nothing close to Peter North however) I will say it also happend faster as well, but not premature ejact or anything, but more like 20-25 mins intead of 45 or more. I just knew it felt different. Anyway the results from the bloodwork 1-1/2 weeks ago was 658 total test. Not exactly 150% increase but still I was ecstatic (still headaches though) and I guess I haven't looked at any other negatives at this point. Maybe naive at this point, but as long as I've been trying to move forward, this has been very positive for me. I am planning on adding Anavar - oxandrolone - next week and backing off the d.bol. Haven't decided how long to run the N.olv or Clomid as I have several months supply of both.
Once again the gains are not "great" as some younger guys or bro's into competition would want, but just feeling like I did twenty plus years ago has been like a trip to disney world for a kid.. I do realize however that like that the trip won't last forever.
In July I had a blood test for test and not e. I don't have the results here at work for all the readings, but the overall test was 310, at which time I asked for hrt, and was flatly refused because I was in the 'normal range'. Pissed as I was that this normal range may be holding me back from advancing, I sought 'these other means' as the otc supplements weren't cutting it. Btw, I had always 'felt' I had more than normal e already anyway, as I am very moody, too sensitive, have always had slight gynecomastia symtoms without ever touching a chemical, and of course I love dark chocolate. But at the drop of a hat I could rip off someones head, spit down their neck, and then feel bad about it later.. lol..
Being a newb to gear and just looking for a bump to get back any advantage like I had when I was younger (as I mentioned) I tried D.bol at 15 mg ed for 2 weeks, and had bp sky high and splitting headaches, bloated more than I thought, but the gains in strength and mass were noticable to me. Went to the doc for bp meds, didn't work out too well, so I did more research (found many debates/info for and against N.olv & Clomid) on the estrogen/water retention/natural test/bp etc..
After two weeks off the d.bol I started again at 20 mg ed, and again the bp went sky high, so on the 3rd day I took added 20 mg of n.olv for one week and have since dropped it to 10 mg ed. That was three weeks ago. Since that time I have not bloated as much as anticipated, bp is elevated but not 'dangerously' high as before, and the strength and size gains have been not only noticable to me, the tape measure, but also my family and friends noticed in the last week or so. Now the only reason I had another blood work done was a tingly feeling in my balls after 4-5 days on the n.olv. and I was shooting about double my normal load amount. (nothing close to Peter North however) I will say it also happend faster as well, but not premature ejact or anything, but more like 20-25 mins intead of 45 or more. I just knew it felt different. Anyway the results from the bloodwork 1-1/2 weeks ago was 658 total test. Not exactly 150% increase but still I was ecstatic (still headaches though) and I guess I haven't looked at any other negatives at this point. Maybe naive at this point, but as long as I've been trying to move forward, this has been very positive for me. I am planning on adding Anavar - oxandrolone - next week and backing off the d.bol. Haven't decided how long to run the N.olv or Clomid as I have several months supply of both.
Once again the gains are not "great" as some younger guys or bro's into competition would want, but just feeling like I did twenty plus years ago has been like a trip to disney world for a kid.. I do realize however that like that the trip won't last forever.
Last edited:
nemesis 2027
New member
I will also admit that my libido is down somewhat, but it hasn't actually caused any real dysfunction at this point.
