Unions

[VooDoo Lady]

What are your thoughts about unions? Do you think they are still useful in the 21 century?

Are you union? Is there a union where you work as "management?"

Thoughts?

 

[Warik]

I think we all know how helpful unions are in this day and age. Airline unions striking whenever they feel like getting yet another raise sounds familiar. So does incompetent teachers maintaining employment regardless of their pathetic teaching skills for administrative fear of a goon-ion retalliation.

Unions should be abolished.

-Warik

 

[gymrat]

I agree with the fact that unions are needed to protect employs, but fuck some of these unions get so caught up in the power, that they lose sight of what they even want.

 

[danielson]

necessary, in that workers could be exploited without them, and it allows qorkers to apply direct financial pressure to employers without risk of all of them being sacked

but annoying in that they can cripple everyday life with their strikes etc

i also love how its perfectly acceptable for train workers or firemen etc to strike, as someone will always come in and fill their role (not saying its always unjust but people can strike effectivly when they want to here)

but when its healthcare workers or military personell who are ROUTINELY taken forgranted by the government or the public for that matter, they arent even given th option to strike as if they did, people would die. and if they do strike the media paints them to be the bad guys (theyve never striked and whenever their unions have staged walkouts, most of them ignore it and continue to work)

 

[saint808]

Smaller unions would be fine... but with power comes corruption and yes it still exists today. I will say the teamsters treated my father really nicely when he was homebound with hospice, and they were very nice to my mother after he passed away.

 

[gymrat]

My bro's union is on strike right now. When their union leader came to talk to their local devision, she asked if they had done any "secondary" picketing action. She went on to say "have you put holes in the "scabs" tires, and have you picketed on their front lawns?"

She serioiusly asked them this?

Crazy union leaders should be shot.

 

[VooDoo Lady]

anyone out there in a union and feel without it the management would take advantage/mistreat them?

 

[Warik]

necessary, in that workers could be exploited without them, and it allows qorkers to apply direct financial pressure to employers without risk of all of them being sacked

This sounds like paranoia to me. Employers aren't out to "get" their employees. They're out to "get" the competition. You're not going to have much luck competing if you make a habit of exploiting your employees. I seriously doubt that the abolition of unions today would cause workers to be exploited. Of course, teachers about whom 99% of the parents and students complain who will be fired will certainly call it exploiting. People who know what they're doing will call it a wise business decision.

The other problem with unions is that its members have the wrong idea about them. One day, my HS history teacher was talking about unions. Someone asked him what the point of a union was. His response? "If I get fired or I want a raise the union will raise hell and help me."

What a dumb fucker.

-Warik

 

[The Ranger]

I belong to the I. B. E. W.(union steward) and SAG as well...Unions have their place in the workforce, but there are some drawbacks at times...pay raises are generally neg. by union officals, therefore no matter how hard you bust your ass, some lazy fuck gets the same money....I overlook this as much as I can and try to take pride in my work....

Unions haven't got the best of reputations this day and time, but let us not forget that major companies fire employees all the time, close shop and move the company to mexico, lay off elderly people and replace them with much younger personal....Unions can protect the rights of these people, but even then, at times it's not enough....

Generally speaking, the further North you go, the more closed shop states you encounter...the further South, the less of a Union force you'll see....

Just a few of my thoughts.....and yes, I have been on strike....it sucks waiting day in and day out not knowing what's going to happen.....After going through this, my opinion is...both sides lose.

Ranger

 

[dimitrios]

I belong to the I. B. E. W.(union steward) and SAG as well...Unions have their place in the workforce, but there are some drawbacks at times...pay raises are generally neg. by union officals, therefore no matter how hard you bust your ass, some lazy fuck gets the same money....I overlook this as much as I can and try to take pride in my work....

Unions haven't got the best of reputations this day and time, but let us not forget that major companies fire employees all the time, close shop and move the company to mexico, lay off elderly people and replace them with much younger personal....Unions can protect the rights of these people, but even then, at times it's not enough....

Generally speaking, the further North you go, the more closed shop states you encounter...the further South, the less of a Union force you'll see....

Just a few of my thoughts.....and yes, I have been on strike....it sucks waiting day in and day out not knowing what's going to happen.....After going through this, my opinion is...both sides lose.

Ranger

I am also in the IBEW Local 349 Miami Florida. I will have to agree with you about the farther South you go the weaker we get. People seem to think if your Union you work slow and get paid alot of money. The idea of union is that the get a person who went to school and was certified to do that job. We down here do not get our "A" ticket until we past the Journymens exam. So yes you might be paying a little more but you are getting a worker that has been in apprentice school for 5 years and has past a state or city exam. As far as working slow, it is safer and you get a better job if you think about what your doing and not rush your work. We make sure the job is done the way it is supposed to be and not half ass.

 

[WODIN]

Unions are as necessary now as ever

 

[Rex]

-My dad is in the FAA union. They are not allowed to strike b/c of security purposes so I'm not too sure what his union does b/c he doesn't like to talk about it. I do know that if he wants to be a radar tech in PA, then he has to be union.

-I'm thinkin of joining the Carpenter's Union after I get out the military, or starting my own contracting business. I believe I can do both as long as I hire Union workers.

-Unions like SEPTA piss me off. Always striking. The teachers union at my school piss me off too. They're bitching about money again. They're idea of protesting is clocking in every morning at 7:45, and leaving every afternoon at 3:00. Their contract states that is the minimum they have to stay in school. I don't grasp what point they're making by doing their jobs according to the contract.

-North Eastern US has very strong ones.

-Unions have a bad stigma attached to them. Violent, lazy, and associated with organized crime.

 

[Norman Bates]

There was a time in the beginning of industrialization when striking and unions were illegal.
The employers were simply exploited and child work was common.
These conditions changed because of the unions.

 

[Whiskey]

I think that unions are a good thing. Companies now a days would pay minimum wage if they could get away with it. I was in the steel workers, for Firestone. The managment new better than to give anyone any shit, and that is how it should be. I think that unions make companies treat their employees how they should be treated. If it wasn't for unions, kiss all that medical insurance good bye.


Whiskey

 

[danielson]

This sounds like paranoia to me. Employers aren't out to "get" their employees. They're out to "get" the competition. You're not going to have much luck competing if you make a habit of exploiting your employees. I seriously doubt that the abolition of unions today would cause workers to be exploited. Of course, teachers about whom 99% of the parents and students complain who will be fired will certainly call it exploiting. People who know what they're doing will call it a wise business decision.
-Warik

if a company wants to downsize and in the process of doing so ruins a community, unions would help, or if they try anything nefarious (privatise, inpinge on saftey etc).....thats what i see unions for

so what did you get for history? your teacher sounds like a dumbass

 

[Whiskey]

Warik---- your teacher was pretty much right. With the exception of the pay part. It was harder than hell to get fired at Firestone. YOu had to really fuck up in order to get fired. Like get in a fight or something. But they could never fire you for just making mistakes or doing someting on accident, union wouldn't let them, the would try, but union was always there.

Whiskey

 

[NateDogg]

I think that unions are a good thing. Companies now a days would pay minimum wage if they could get away with it. I was in the steel workers, for Firestone. The managment new better than to give anyone any shit, and that is how it should be. I think that unions make companies treat their employees how they should be treated. If it wasn't for unions, kiss all that medical insurance good bye.


Whiskey

I am in 100% agreement with Warik on the union issue. These statements I disagree with 100%. I am sure not everyone in a union is lazy and I am sure there are hard workers in unions. However, here are my disagreements with the above:

1. Companies should pay minimum wage to someone with minimal skill. If you want to get paid more, learn a marketable skill.

2. Management is there to manage. If management feels that someone is not slacking off, and they truly are, then they should be fired. I actually worked for a company a while back, while in college. Yes, I was in the union, but I worked my ass off. There was one guy there that did absolutely nothing, I mean NOTHING, EVER, laziest person on the planet. They had been trying to fire him for three years, but could not...because of the union. BULLSHIT!

3. As was stated earlier, companies are not out to get their employees, they are out to get the competition. That said, if someone is useless, they should and would be fired (from an non-union job), if they work hard, they should and would recieve raises, and other accolades.

My $.02, actually I guess that's more like 5 bucks.

ND

 

[dimitrios]

Tell me what union your in and where and what your local number is and I will send my fellow Union Brothers some karma.


IBEW Local #349 Miami, Florida

 

[The Ranger]

I.B.E.W. Local 50......And God said..." Let there be light, and it was good! " And lo from the dark came forth Lineman, and unto the world they went forth to distribute it....

Ranger

 

[Warik]

I don't see what's so hard about maintaining employment through solid work ethic and productivity. What jackass would fire a skilled worker?

You know who goes first in the time of crisis? The lazy workers who whine about raises all the time and never work hard enough to deserve their current salary.

-Warik

 

[dimitrios]

I.B.E.W. Local 50......And God said..." Let there be light, and it was good! " And lo from the dark came forth Lineman, and unto the world they went forth to distribute it....

Ranger

You got your karma brother

 

[spongebob]

wodin, your a wise man.

and so was these two great leaders,....

" If I went to work in a factory, the first thing I'd do would be to join a Union."
- President Franklin D. Roosevelt

" All that serves labor serves the nation and all that harms is treason. If a man tells you he loves America yet hates labor, he is a liar. If a man tells you he trusts America yet fears labor, he is a fool. There is no America without labor, and fleece to one is to rob the other."
- Abraham Lincoln

to sit here an argue the bad points of a union is rediculous IMO.
the good far outwieghs the bad. 95% of union employees are hard working individuals.

i work for a petrochemical company, and im in the AFL-CIO 347. ive worked for a non union chemical company as well. BASF. the company i work for now filed CH11 last year. just five or six years ago, this company was turning more than a million dollars a day in profits in good months. now thier CH11. the top brass ran it into the ground with stupid decisions. now its contract time for the hourly employees. guess what? they wanna cut wages and benefits across the board for hourly. you say, "well they are in CH11". but wait, they just gave an across the board raise for all its already over paid salaried people, plus just recently handed out retention bonuses to some of them. now why should i take a paycut? you see, companies sometimes are out to get you. to make such blanket statements to the contrary is rediculous. for some companies, 2 billion is not enough, they need 2.000001 billion. and they'll cut your throat to get it. me, if this company im working for now doesnt give me at least a 3% raise for this year with 3% for the following three years, then im walking, plain and simple. thats just keeping up with inflation.too many other jobs out there for me.

 

[Warik]

so what did you get for history? your teacher sounds like a dumbass

I think I got a B or something. Didn't learn shit and got a passing grade. He spent 4 weeks on the Holocaust and had guest speakers and everything, but completely skipped every other aspect of World War II including Pearl Harbor, the bombing of Hiroshima... hell, even who the fuck was fighting who!!! Can you guess his religious preference?

-Warik

 

[danielson]

I think I got a B or something. Didn't learn shit and got a passing grade. He spent 4 weeks on the Holocaust and had guest speakers and everything, but completely skipped every other aspect of World War II including Pearl Harbor, the bombing of Hiroshima... hell, even who the fuck was fighting who!!! Can you guess his religious preference?

-Warik

shintoism?

(J/K)

thats bad teaching. great he did so well for that one aspect but negated the rest of history. now im out of HS i dont have to put up with stupid techers and instead get bumblimg lecturers

 

[Warik]

shintoism?

(J/K)

thats bad teaching. great he did so well for that one aspect but negated the rest of history. now im out of HS i dont have to put up with stupid techers and instead get bumblimg lecturers

Actually his teaching of the Holocaust sucked too. He spent a month talking about "Hitler was bad. He killed many Jews. He was psycho. They put Jews in concentration camps and cooked them." God damn man... everybody knows all of this already. Why not talk about HISTORY? Why did Hitler do it? What were the results of it? What effect did it have on the fucking war that you never said jack shit about!!!! What a dumbass.

-Warik

 

[huntmaster]

Teamsters Local 767 here---Ft Worth, Tx.

This year is contract year at UPS and it looks like it is going to be a dandy. They are saying $4 an hour accross the board raise for part timers. And it is not just rumors---all the stewards are backing it and the company knows that they will have to do this b/c they screwed the p/timers in the 80's. so now it is payback time.

Anyway, overall I like the Union. there are some things I dont like about how they effect the workplace. Some peole think they dont have to work b/c they are union, but these people get weaded out where i work.

I did not agree with the strike in 97 looking back now and neither does hardly any of us. There is no way on earth that we will strike this year. I heard they are trying for 20 and out---that would be cool!!

My job would not be what it is if John Casey, founder of UPS would not have asked the Teamsters to organize back in the 30's---thats right, he asked them to organize.

 

[IanStuart]

I think we all know how helpful unions are in this day and age. Airline unions striking whenever they feel like getting yet another raise sounds familiar. So does incompetent teachers maintaining employment regardless of their pathetic teaching skills for administrative fear of a goon-ion retalliation.

Unions should be abolished.

-Warik

If it wasnt for unions you wouldnt have weekends off your shitty job. nor would you work 9-5, you would work for scraps pal. If you think big business actually *cares* about your days off, fair pay, and overall wellness you need to pull your head out of your ass (sorry to be so blunt)

 

[huntmaster]

I would say that the biggest thing that I despise about my union is that they give so much money to the damn Democratic Party.

 

[IanStuart]

Actually his teaching of the Holocaust sucked too. He spent a month talking about "Hitler was bad. He killed many Jews. He was psycho. They put Jews in concentration camps and cooked them." God damn man... everybody knows all of this already. Why not talk about HISTORY? Why did Hitler do it? What were the results of it? What effect did it have on the fucking war that you never said jack shit about!!!! What a dumbass.

-Warik

Ever notcie how shrill jews get when pushing their favorite subject, the holocaust? maybe they are begining to realize we are getting tired of listening to the same old song and dance.

 

[Warik]

If it wasnt for unions you wouldnt have weekends off your shitty job. nor would you work 9-5, you would work for scraps pal. If you think big business actually *cares* about your days off, fair pay, and overall wellness you need to pull your head out of your ass (sorry to be so blunt)

Actually, I make my own hours, which often do not include weekends, and are often not from 9-5 straight, take as many breaks as I want, and probably make more than you just for sitting behind a desk. Big business cares about what makes them money. Fucking good employees in the ass doesn't make good money. Be a good employee and you won't get fucked. Plain and simple.

-Warik

 

[danielson]

Actually his teaching of the Holocaust sucked too. He spent a month talking about "Hitler was bad. He killed many Jews. He was psycho. They put Jews in concentration camps and cooked them." God damn man... everybody knows all of this already. Why not talk about HISTORY? Why did Hitler do it? What were the results of it? What effect did it have on the fucking war that you never said jack shit about!!!! What a dumbass.

-Warik

wierdly enough we dint spend any time on it (in any detail) while we were in class, its only when history wasnt made compulsuary others did

but i have simialr experinces in 'religious education' (really shouldnt be a plural)

2 years on bible
2 weeks on islam (purely because we were doing it in history think we only spent 2 lessons on it)
1 day on hinduism (well, 1/2 an hour on divali)
no time on buddism
no time judaism (unless u count old testament)


this was under 'state education'....under private schooling from a now bishop i think (then priest/reverent) i learnt more about other faiths than with an R.E. teacher/wannabe missionary

 

[Norman Bates]

In school i wished there were some lessons on chinese or japanese history and culture.
Instead of talking 5 times about WW2 some time should have been spent on those.

 

[dimitrios]

Teamsters Local 767 here---Ft Worth, Tx.

This year is contract year at UPS and it looks like it is going to be a dandy. They are saying $4 an hour accross the board raise for part timers. And it is not just rumors---all the stewards are backing it and the company knows that they will have to do this b/c they screwed the p/timers in the 80's. so now it is payback time.

Anyway, overall I like the Union. there are some things I dont like about how they effect the workplace. Some peole think they dont have to work b/c they are union, but these people get weaded out where i work.

I did not agree with the strike in 97 looking back now and neither does hardly any of us. There is no way on earth that we will strike this year. I heard they are trying for 20 and out---that would be cool!!

My job would not be what it is if John Casey, founder of UPS would not have asked the Teamsters to organize back in the 30's---thats right, he asked them to organize.

Sorry hunter, I can not give you more karma until after I spread it around. I will as soon as I can

 

[Puc]

I agree with Warik

talk about a first.

If an employer can find someone to do your job cheaper than you it is because you are overpaid.

The only real job security is being good at what you do. So good that your employer wants to keep you.

I am a computer consultant. My employers disagree with damn near everything I do (the hours I keep, my attire, my language, my hobbies). I rock the boat with the best of them. But, throughout the .com bust I have remained employed while everyone else I started with has been laid off (I have watched our company workforce go from 100 to 20). The reason is simple. I am brilliant and cheap. They can't afford to fire me.

 

[vinylgroover]

Unions are socialist criminals.

They had there place in the dim dark ages but they are nothing more than a hinderance to progress now steeped in corruption, blackmail and an ethos of supporting the mediocre.

 

[Bigsatan13]

If it wasnt for unions you wouldnt have weekends off your shitty job. nor would you work 9-5, you would work for scraps pal. If you think big business actually *cares* about your days off, fair pay, and overall wellness you need to pull your head out of your ass (sorry to be so blunt)

Very true! You would also have to eat dog food in your golden years. Proud member of IBEW 456 here!

 

[bigguns7]

Be a good employee and you won't get fucked. Plain and simple.

-Warik

THAT I have to disagree with. Warik you've been out of corporate America too long if you believe this. Good employees are getting fucked every hour on the hour. I hate unions, but the naivete of your above statement is surprising.

 

[Prometheus]

gotta disagree with Warik here.

what you say might be true for specialty workers in certain fields (high-tech, programming, etc.) - but that's not the case with jobs such as factory workers or unskilled labor, where managment views workers as fungible commodities.

 

[Kahn]

What a fucking moron, I thought this said Onions.

 

[aurelius]

This sounds like paranoia to me. Employers aren't out to "get" their employees. They're out to "get" the competition. You're not going to have much luck competing if you make a habit of exploiting your employees.

Do explain turn of the century working conditions.

you see, companies sometimes are out to get you. to make such blanket statements to the contrary is rediculous. for some companies, 2 billion is not enough, they need 2.000001 billion. and they'll cut your throat to get it.

Didn´t you read this post, Warik?

There´s another thread on here about "using" people. THis is the perfect example. Management "uses" wokers for profit until they thing they´re "usefulness" is gone. Then the worker is gone. Not good or bad, just the way it is. I don´t know if unions are as useful for all professions necessarily.

What you would notice is how much stronger labor is in Europe than the US, where organized labor almost seemed invisible to me.

 

[Warik]

THAT I have to disagree with. Warik you've been out of corporate America too long if you believe this. Good employees are getting fucked every hour on the hour. I hate unions, but the naivete of your above statement is surprising.

So...

Fact 1: A company consists of good employees and bad employees.
Fact 2: Companies are fucking employees.
Fact 3: Good employees are getting fucked.

So, companies are fucking good employees, but leaving bad employees alone?

... and I'm being naive?

-Warik

 

[Warik]

but that's not the case with jobs such as factory workers or unskilled labor, where managment views workers as fungible commodities.

If my whole argument was about good employees being safe and bad employees being at risk for termination, then how can you attempt to refute that with examples of factory workers and unskilled laborers? If a job requires no skill, how can someone be "good" at it?

Isn't it possible that management views such workers as fungible commodities because they ARE fungible commodities?

fungible - "being of such a nature that one part or quantity may be replaced by another equal part or quantity in the satisfaction of an obligation"

Assume that your job is to put a big stamp on something as it comes down the assembly line. The assembly line moves in such a way that any speed or efficiency beyond a certain point will not improve the way the job is done. (i.e. if you can stamp 2000 things an hour that doesn't matter because the conveyor belt doesn't move that fast) Also assume that the conveyor belt moves slow enough so that even granny can stamp things.

Given the above, please tell me how anyone working that line is not "fungible?"

If you want job security, get a job that requires skill, and do it well. Factory jobs? "Unskilled labor" jobs? I can walk in there today and do the job just as good as anyone else with little training. Can they do my job? Probably not in this lifetime. Now think about a doctor or a chemist. Can I waltz on in and do their jobs? No, hence the reason they're still employed.

Not trying to be a dick, just stating fact. If you're going to refute an argument, use a valid counterexample.

-Warik

 

[Warik]

Management "uses" wokers for profit until they thing they´re "usefulness" is gone.

Yawn.

Is it so difficult to work in such a way that you will be useful to a company? If you ran your own corporation, would you hire useless people? How would you feel if someone forced you to employ someone who wasn't useful to you?

Oh wait... you support the concept of unions... I'm sure you welcome useless employees with open arms, and the fact that employee A is 10x as productive and efficient as employee B has nothing to do with whether or not you'd want either of them to continue working.

Yup... sound logic at work here.

-Warik

 

[Norman Bates]

When there is a surplus of workers with high unemployment ,manager will be able to enforce low salaries with high working hours good workers ,too.If you quit you won´t find another job and someone else ,who is also capable ,will be more than willing to take it.

The only way for workers in that situation, which CURRENTLY isn´t so actual, is to organize themselves in a union.

In the IT it isn´t that way at the moment, there are not enough people out there, so you will get a good salary. Because managers are competing for you.

This won´t stay that way forever.
History is full of examples, like Germany after WWI or shortly after the industrial revolution.
I´m sure there are examples in the US ,too.

 

[Steroid_Virgin]

Two words:

Eastern Airlines.....

'nough said.

 

[aurelius]

Is it so difficult to work in such a way that you will be useful to a company? If you ran your own corporation, would you hire useless people?

I had many friends who got work in SF during the dot com thing and did NOTHING all day. They were hired so the company could point to "growth" and secure more loans.

How would you feel if someone forced you to employ someone who wasn't useful to you?

What are you talking about?

Oh wait... you support the concept of unions... I'm sure you welcome useless employees with open arms, and the fact that employee A is 10x as productive and efficient as employee B has nothing to do with whether or not you'd want either of them to continue working. Yup... sound logic at work here.

Well, you´ve resorted to the dgreenhill technique of fabricating a ridiculous argument that I never made and proceeded to call it ridiculous. Seriously, there´s a lot of people here who have no concept of rhetoric techniques, and you are one of them. I would suggest taking a class or at least getting a book on the subject.

 

[dimitrios]

AMERICAN
BY
BIRTH
UNION
BY
CHOICE

 

[VooDoo Lady]

To me unions were one of the most necessary organizations to arise in America. Much of what they did and fought for make our lives better every day we go into the work place. With that said every stride that was made by unions is now a law and typically has a federal agency backing it.

40 hour workweek. Labor relations
Time and 1/2 for OT
Child labor - Child labor laws
Minimum wage
Safety OSHA
Environmental EPA

In all honesty the government would have to undo all of these safe gaurds in order to open the work force up to the sins of the past. Unions IMO no longer stand for or do what they were designed to do.

I own three businesses and can tell you it is never mine nor any other business owners desire to hurt our workforce. In fact I try and do all I can for my people. The more happy an employee the more productive an employee.

Dex