the "snake bit" roid

[Temple]

a continuation of the Bratis discussion...
Apparently more of us tolerate it well than previously thought.
According to Lobo girls should alway drink their winny but once one has established that they tolerate it is drinking it really necessary and if so, why???
Does injecting it take the liver harshnees out of it - I would assume so. Is it easier on HDL/LDL levels when injected???
Since many of us respond well to orals at 7mg/d what would be the equivalent injectable dose???
Pappa, do you still consider it "snake bit" or has you opinion of it changed based on the recent info???

 

[wilson6]

"Does injecting it take the liver harshnees out of it"

Not really much difference. It is still a 17-AA androgen and is metabolized by the liver the same as an oral, although the first pass would be less concentrated; none-the-less, it takes very little of a C-17 AA oral androgen to increase hepatic lipase activity and decrease HDL. Even the 19-nor derived progesterones will cut HDL in half.

Is it easier on HDL/LDL levels when injected???"

Nope. Reason same as above.

Decrease in effectiveness has to do primarily with first pass hepatic metabolism, it is about 50% less effective when ingested orally vs injected (animal data from UpJohn). Whether this holds in humans is unknown as no study has ever compared the two forms.

"orals at 7mg/d what would be the equivalent injectable dose"

12.5 mg EOD?

W6

 

[Temple]

Okay so in layman's terms what is going on with the liver is what causes the change in HDL levels and at the doseages women take this is negligible, correct???
Sorry for my ignorance but what are the 19nor progesterones???

 

[MS]

It's pretty hard to extrapolate from animal data to humans. Wilson6, do you know what the animals were??? Certainly rats and mice have a MUCH higher gastric and first pass processing of xenobiotics than humans making many oral drug trials almost impossible in these animals. I'm not sure about the impact on lipoprotein metabolism. I agree that differences in first pass will make little difference in theory, but the fact that the liver has to deal with the total dose of an oral initially versus the much slower drip feed of release from depot makes me wonder if it wouldn't be easier on the liver because it would simulate a lower but more frequent oral dose?? Basically lower blood levels with the injected......I don't suppose there's any data on this in humans

Temple, the impact on HDL is not likely to be negligble in women on 'low' doses of winny. Even OCs at ~30 microgams per day have an impact on HDL, and women are taking winny at 500-1000 times that dose. It's still a lot.

 

[CardioGirl]

"orals at 7mg/d what would be the equivalent injectable dose"

12.5 mg EOD?

Not sure I understood this answer....are you saying that "if" you were taking 7mg/d orally that this would be equal to 12.5mg taken injectable??

 

[MS]

I think W6 was guesstimating the equivalent of 7mg oral per day if you chose to inject. 12.5mg EOD is more convenient than 6.25mg ED, and since injected winny comes in 50mg per ml, it is easier to measure 12.5mg (1/4 of a ml) than something like 10mg (1/5th of a ml).

I think these are minor details. I would be surprised if you suddenly noticed huge side effects by increasing you daily average dose from 6.25mg injected to 7mg oral (or vice versa). No matter how you get it in you, it will impact on you HDL, liver enzymes... and you still run the risk of masculinizing sides.

 

[MS]

The absorption of almsot ALL oral drugs is variable from person to person and day to day. It changes with diet, menstrual phase, fiber and fat intake, other drugs, illness, age, tablet compounding blah blah blah... So does post-absorptive distribution and metabolism. This is one of the reasons why different women (and men for that matter) can have different reactions to the exact same dose of the same brand of winny.

 

[Realgains]

"Does injecting it take the liver harshnees out of it"

Not really much difference. It is still a 17-AA androgen and is metabolized by the liver the same as an oral, although the first pass would be less concentrated; none-the-less, it takes very little of a C-17 AA oral androgen to increase hepatic lipase activity and decrease HDL. Even the 19-nor derived progesterones will cut HDL in half.

Is it easier on HDL/LDL levels when injected???"

Nope. Reason same as above.

Decrease in effectiveness has to do primarily with first pass hepatic metabolism, it is about 50% less effective when ingested orally vs injected (animal data from UpJohn). Whether this holds in humans is unknown as no study has ever compared the two forms.

"orals at 7mg/d what would be the equivalent injectable dose"

12.5 mg EOD?

W6

YUP!!! I agree with W6 but I think injecting it is a little easier on the liver since it is detoxified over a longer period of time. If taken orally it goes directly from the small intestine to the portal vein and then WHAM it hits the liver all at once.

As W6 said it takes about 50% more oral winny to see the same results.

The main problem with taking it IM is that it takes about a week to clear due to the slow absorbtion of the crystal like deposit(it is not esterfied) so if bad sides come on then you have to rid it out over a week as opposed to a day with the oral.

RG

 

[Realgains]

I remember reading an article on T-mag in regard to oral winny vs IM........
The scientific study concluded that about 52% more oral wintrol is needed to achieve the same nitrogen retention as the IM. The study was done on dogs.

I will try to dig it up.

RG