Suston & CCJ - Come to my rescue

[Tom Treutlein]

Okay, obviously there's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to leg strength vs. explosiveness when fighting is concerned. Now, I'm wondering at what point one should really start emphasizing flexibility and speed over strength?

I mean, you can have someone who can squat 500-600 lbs. (an average powerlifter, let's say) and they'd be damn strong, but obviously as you grow bigger and stronger, you'll be sacrificing speed and explosive ability.

So. It's kind've open-ended, but I'm wondering at what point you guys suggest a line be drawn, assuming fighting ability is the main goal, between strength and explosiveness.

Lots of rambling there. Hope I got some kind've point across.

 

[bignate73]

maybe you should look into OLY lifts. im sure thats why you asked for CCJ to help. but accomplished OLY lifters have tremendous explosiveness.

 

[Tagio]

i don't think there is a point where increased strength leads to LESS explosiveness. there is a point where increased strength won't help anymore because the added strength can't be activated in the necessary timeframe. With fighting as you are trying to manipulate your own body and someone else's as well, you'd want to maximize explosiveness with fairly heavy loads (as opposed to training just for a good vertical jump).

for example the snatch is an explosive movement, but adding 100 lbs to your squat will make your snatch go up if you continue to train it. this seems to be true to the limits of human capacity. You'll notice the biggest guys in OL back squat the most, clean the most, and snatch the most. also powersnatch or powerclean the most.

the vertical jump is an explosive movement with much less weight. so there is a point where added leg strength won't be applicable but it's pretty high.. over a double bodyweight olmypic squat i'd imagine. I think most olympic sprinters can squat at least double bodyweight, maybe more?

if you do both strength and speed/explosive training in the weightroom your explosiveness will grow with your strength. your size is controlled by your diet and there will never be a point where your strength will be slowing you down, but there will be a point, say at a 2.25x bodyweight olympic squat, where you know you'd have to sacrifice time from fighting or explosive training to get the squat to go any higher. for you that would probably be the time to switch to maintenance of strength on that particular movement because the squat is not an end in itself for you. (or take some time to get it to go up in the 'offseason' and then refocus on explosive/fighting training again)

does that make sense/ help at all?

 

[coolcolj]

Hard to say, as I'm no expert on such things, butI have 2 articles for you to read - that will give you something to chew on, and help steer your training

Power Training Basics
by Dietrich Buchenholz

Being successful as an athlete is simple; How much power can you produce? Strength development is one piece to solving the puzzle but it’s definitely not the “holy grail” of performance development. Sure, some coaches may trick you into thinking they know a lot about “sports training” by flooding your mind with their knowledge of “strength training”. But don’t be scared to use the “bullshit meter” if you have to. Just ask yourself; “Does it make me a better player on the field?” Forget about the numbers in the gym, they’re pointless. Does it improve your stats on the field? In other words, don’t worry about the fact your strength coach keeps giving you shit because he can “out-squat” you. If he’s really a bad ass then why can you shake him like Shakira’s booty on the playing field? What you need to worry about is not wasting your efforts in pursuit of your goals. Make the most of your time and you will go the furthest- Very simple advice to train and live by.


I always laugh when NFL strength coaches bitch about how weak their new recruits are and how crappy these athletes old strength programs must have been. These strength coaches obviously don’t have a clue! The athletes’ “piss-poor strength” was good enough to land him a job in the NFL, right? I mean, why didn’t you just draft the insanely strong guy if that’s what’s so important? Trust me, any one of these gym freaks would be glad to give up their nighttime telemarketing job to play in the NFL. The reason you picked up the “weak guy” is because he is powerful as hell. And if you think that the stronger you get the more powerful you’re automatically going to become, get out of the profession now while you’re dignity is still in check!


Bottom line: the more some of you learn about Power the more you realize your strength training efforts have been an over-kill! Heck, you may even be surprised to learn how your strength training efforts have actually hindered your development on the playing field!

“Strength”
“Gee, that’s a strong firecracker you got there!”
Sit in the stands and watch an athletic event- any athletic event- and you’re sure to hear onlookers make claims like; “Boy, that athlete has a strong arm”…or “Look at how strong his leg is!” But unless you’re sitting in the stands of a powerlifting meet their claims of “strength” are often misplaced. What they are seeing is “power”, not strength. Ever see Pedro Martinez throw a baseball? Forget the fact that he can light up a catcher’s glove like a Christmas tree…the guy looks like he should be selling blankets on the beaches of Cancun, not striking out the likes of Jason Giambi, Barry Bonds and Albert Pujols. Ever see Kim Collins run a 100 meters? Once you get past the fact you can literally see the food digesting in his gut if he’s wearing a wifebeater (he’s transparent with his shirt off), it’s hard to ignore the fact that he rakes the track like a madman! Strength? Ha! Put it this way, the guy thinks “box squatting” means sitting down to take a shit.


The truth is that there are different types of “strength”. For instance, if you are looking to develop “explosive-strength” then your efforts should center-around “strength-speed” work. But if you need to raise your “explosive-power” development you would be better served with “speed-strength” work (hold on, I’ll answer your questions in a second). All in all, there are four main types of “strength” work you can employ: “absolute-strength”, “strength-endurance”, “strength-speed”, and “speed-strength”. As a side note, there are two other modalities of work you can employ as an athlete- “restorative warm-up” exercises and “speed endurance” exercises.


Most people understand that absolute-strength is simply a test of how much weight you can lift, and these same people have usually learned by now that strength-endurance is a measure of how much force you can continually produce over a given interval. But most people get confused about strength-speed versus speed-strength, so let’s turn our attention there.



“Power Percents”
The most important value to know when weight training is not how much you can lift but at what percent of your max strength do you produce peak power. This is the divide between speed-strength work and strength-speed work. Research has shown that athletes may put out peak power in a range of 51% AW 1RM and 74% AW 1RM (with some athletes producing peak power with slightly lower or higher values). Yes, this means that you can raise or lower your relative power output. Just as interesting to note is the fact that you can increase the “time to rise” of power achievement (but more on that latter). Getting back to what I was saying, if you use my Appropriated-Weight techniques detailed in “The Sports Book” then you will be able to use the same percents for every movement in the gym. If not, you will have no way of knowing if the athlete is even strong enough to begin power training methods!


The reason why most research keeps drawing out different conclusions about how much weight an athlete needs to work with to achieve peak power in the gym is because they are using straight-weight percents, not appropriated-weight percents. Appropriation of weight simply means that you are taking the athletes bodyweight into consideration for a given movement. For instance, an athlete will have to lift 92% of his bodyweight in addition to bar weight in the squat, and approximately 8% of his bodyweight in addition to bar weight in the bench press. You should already be able to see why using the same straight-weight power-percents for the upper body and lower body is a huge mistake!


As mentioned earlier, most athletes will put out peak power within the range of 51% and 74% of their Appropriated-Weight one rep max (or “AW 1RM” for short). Athletes who have had a long stay with strength training methods will put out peak power with lower percents than athletes who have been using more power based training protocols. In practical terms, this means that you could very well have a pair of 200 lb athletes, one of them a 300 lbs bencher and the other a 442 lbs bencher, and they both produce the same amount of power! That is, they are both moving 217 lbs just as fast as one another even though one guy is obviously much stronger. Which if you put it into boxing terms, the 442 lb bencher had better be stronger because he’ll need to keep pushing himself up from off the canvas!


Even though this example is extreme, there are literally countless athletes with this problem. They pack the strength but lack the power! You will be able to understand this more as we take a look at the neuro-muscular changes in relation to different regimes of strength in future editions of “The Buchenholz Method: Power Training!” series.



Strength-Speed Training
The purpose of strength-speed training is to develop “explosive-strength”, which is defined as “the ability to realize strength quickly”. What this really means is that you will be increasing your “rate of force development”(RFD). Take a pair of NFL lineman who weigh the same and squat the same, both with sound technique and nor a leverage advantage to either one. The one who is going to win the battle at the line of scrimmage is the one who has better explosive-strength development. This is not only because he is going to be delivering more force to his opponent but also because he will reach this point of peak force output quicker. That, my friends, is like playing No-Limit Poker with a pair of Aces up your sleeve! That, my friends, is explosive-strength development!


AW percents for strength-speed training are 20% above your peak power output. Since the average athlete will put out peak power with 63% AW 1RM, the general guideline is to use 63-83% AW 1RM for your strength-speed work. However, some less-explosive athletes will want to use 51-71% AW weights and some more-explosive athletes, such as basketball players, may be better served with 74-94% AW 1RM when looking to develop explosive-strength. Again, it all comes back to your relative-power output in respect to your absolute-strength.



Speed-Strength Training
The purpose of speed-strength training is to develop “explosive-power”, or “the ability to achieve peak velocity as early in the rebound action of the movement as possible”. What’s the difference between an elite baseball player and an elite softball player? We’ve tested them both to be able to swing over 90 mph with a baseball bat, but only the baseball players had enough rate of force development to accelerate the bat head fast enough to achieve peak velocity rapidly after the start of the swing. The softball players had a longer acceleration track, not to mention much slower reaction time scores. It should be noted at this point that explosive-strength development and explosive-power development are both reliant on proficient rate of force development display.


Moreover, take a pair of baseball players and have them bat off the same pitcher, and cut out any other variables you can think of (such as pitch type, pitch location, etc). Assuming both of them are able to put out the same amount of power, the one who can realize it sooner will have the advantage. Watch a living-immortal like Barry Bonds hit and you know what I’m talking about. The ball looks like it’s almost past his front knee before he even thinks about swinging! The critical factor isn’t his 95 mph bat speed- lots of guys do that- the critical factor is his ability to go from 0 to 95 mph with his bat head quicker than most of us “humans” can blink an eyelash! That, my friends, is explosive-power! The critical factor is teaching your system to develop force faster. You do this by stimulating your neuromuscular system to achieve peak-twitch as quickly as possible within the given movement.


Let’s take another example- not so much to help you but because I’m having fun with these! You have two basketball players who can jump just as high as one another. They are driving the lane stride-for-stride, one on offense and one on defense. The offensive player can achieve peak-twtich 20 ms into the concentric phase of the jump and the defensive player takes 45 ms into the concentric portion of the jump to achieve peak-twitch. Knowing that the quicker the achievement of peak-twitch the greater the rate of force development of the athlete (which means the quicker the athlete will achieve peak velocity and consequently get off the ground quicker); Who do you think is going to win this battle? Can you smell chin-nuts, anyone?


The fact is that there are lots of baseball players who can swing 90 mph and lots of basketball players who can jump 35 inches. But when they have to display these abilities at “game speed” only a few of them survive. Why? Poor explosive-power development (read: not enough speed-strength work in their training programs).


Speed-strength training embodies everything below your relative-peak power AW percent. The goal is two-fold: teach your system to activate peak-twitch sooner and teach your system to release peak tension quicker. Most athletes will work with 63% AW 1RM and below, with only 43%-63% AW 1RM having a strong direct-impact on their peak power scores and explosive-strength development (even though all speed-strength percents will feed into explosive-power development). Again, some athletes may work with 54-74% AW 1RM to influence their relative power output whereas others need to work with 31-51% AW 1RM.



Closing Thoughts
It’s easy for us as coaches to sit back and yell “quick feet” or “explode to the ball.” But is any of this really doing the athlete any good? Let’s say an athlete weighs 200 lbs and squats 150 lbs. Is he strong enough to move quickly, let alone start a speed-strength training program?


The answer is “no!” Always take the lower AW percent value to answer these types of questions. For him, this means that he squats 334 lbs(bodyweight included). 51% of that is 170.34 lbs. Take out his bodyweight (92% of 200 lbs, or 184 lbs) and you can see that he would have to work with negative-weights (-13.66 lbs) to try and develop explosive-power! Now you can either chop off an arm or train him in an exo-skeleton, but why not just get him strong! Remember, a good coach never has to scream about technique because all technical aspects are rooted in the nervous system. In other words, manipulate your nervous system properly and you will take care of your technical problems!


Finally, remember what Alexsei Medvedyev said when looking to build peak power; “there are no special exercises to develop speed or strength; they all develop speed-strength to a greater or lesser extent.” Training is a relatively simple thing to do. Sure your training prescriptions have to get more and more precise the closer you get to achieving the most of your performance capacity. But if you ever get confused don’t go digging deeper and deeper for answers, take a step back to make sure you’re headed in the right direction to begin with!

Hopefully some of these “Power Training Basics” have given you a nice refreshing break from Flex Fantasy Magazine, and maybe even helped steer you back on course!

 

[coolcolj]

more stuff - trimmed for relevant info


The Power Development Cycle
The number one factor for power production is power absorption (e.g. high velocity/high force yielding, a.k.a. “eccentric power output”) because it leads to the greatest degree of stretch-reflex potential in the muscle-tendon complex. And it's no secret that the more energy you take in the more energy you can put out. Just think about a quarterback throwing the ball like a drunken dartsman versus a quarterback who throws like, well, a quarterback. Or it may help you to relate the concept to jumping out of a chair versus a typical down-up vertical jump?


The number one factor for power absorption development is strength development. Research shows that as your muscles get stronger your ability to absorb more force increases, which in turn gives you the potential to absorb more power. And this if obviously important because the more power you can absorb, the more power you can produce!

Power is defined as the product of force and velocity whereas force is defined as the product of mass and acceleration(or mass and “deceleration” in this case). Just think, force plate studies show a sprinter will encounter about 5 times his bodyweight in force on a single leg at peak velocity. That's tremendous force executed at tremendous velocity...or "power" as some of us like to call it. Consequently, the main difference between power absorption and force absorption is the velocity component. It's best to think of force absorption as slow-negatives with relatively heavy weight (Force = MASS x deceleration), even though it can also be thought of as lighter weight with a greater deceleration component (Force = mass x DECELERATION) and a moderate mass yielded at a moderate deceleration value (Force = mass x deceleration). But, it helps me to think about how fast the body or loaded-limb is moving prior to the point at which the object is slowed down (decelerated) whenever I want to get my arms around the power absorption concept.

If you take a power movement and perform it in “reverse” or just the first-half of the movement then you will absorb a good deal of power. The landing of a depth-drop from a high box; the catching of a barbell during a beta-snatch movement or drop-squat movement and of course AMT landings (i.e. 'over-speed depth drops’) are all good examples of power absorption movements. In terms of methods explained in “The Sports Book”, amplitude-drop-absorption (ADA) methods where you drop, absorb and stabilize can all be classified as power absorption methods. Force-drop-absorptions (FDA), also detailed in “The Sports Book” are another group of power absorption methods. In terms of force, which may be easier for many of you to understand, power absorption methods can be thought of as “Force = mass x DECELERATION”. That is, the force register during power production and power absorption movements isn't necessarily high because the mass of the object being moved is great but, rather, because the acceleration/deceleration factor is so big.

Think of them as fast acting eccentrics where a good deal of force is taken into the muscle and you should be able to understand what a research scientists is talking about when he uses the term power-absorption. In example, the reactive (REA) method and the reactive-acceleration (RA) method also contain a good deal of power absorption. Again, the more velocity going into the absorption/yielding phase of speed-strength and strength-speed movements the greater the chance you have to absorb power (or put out “eccentric power” as science calls it). You can absorb a lot of power during full range movements, as well, just be sure to focus on rapid yielding-to-overcoming transitions- "Plyometrics" should ring a bell?


Another way to distinguish between force absorption and power absorption is to compare a heavily weighted squat jump with a reactive box jump and the vertical jump improvements each one makes. Use a force plate to make sure the force values for the weighted squat jumps equal that of the depth-jumps. What you'll find is that the altitude drop-and-jumps increase your vertical jumping ability more than the loaded counter-movement-jumps because more power is absorbed with the former (or less power was absorbed with the latter…however you prefer to look at it). Again, the interesting concept is that the force absorbed is the same but the power absorbed is different.

This is yet another reason why AMT jumps out-perform other jump training methods when looking to raise your run-up approach jumping ability, or “reactive-strength” as sport scientists call it.


Another intriguing concept here is most athletes errantly try to raise performance by simply getting stronger. I'm sure you've heard this one before:

"Hey coach, how do I get better?"

"Easy...get stronger!"

That's bullshit! Even though the strength training approach may help them increase their force absorption potential, especially in terms of being able to lower heavy weights under control, it's only when you increase your ability to absorb more power will you realize the greatest gains in your power production development! So much for your cut and dry powerlifting and/or bodybuilding routine, huh? What may interest you bodybuilders and powerlifters, however, is that as your power production values go up then your hypertrophy potential goes through the roof. Once you capture this hypertrophy potential then you will have raised your strength threshold, once again, setting a new stone for power development. That's one you're sure to hear regurgitated by all of my copy-cat coaches out there!

As you can see, it's nothing more than a big fat cycle of getting stronger to get more powerful to get bigger so that you can get stronger which feeds into more power development! (whew…that sucked the air out of me!)

But hold the press! Before you jump the gun let's see why the application of this merry-go-round process shouldn't be carried out as “color by number" as it may sound. In fact, let's take a look at how and why we don't even "strength train" to make our athletes the best they can become!


Strength Training Problems
The problem comes from the adaptability of your nervous system in respect to strength development methods. Teach it to strain and it strains. Teach it to fire and release and it will quickly achieve peak-twitch and just as rapidly release muscle tension, exactly as you conditioned it to respond. But the loophole is that strength work decreases the rate at which your muscles can activate peak tension and prolongs the duration to which they hold onto peak tension. Why is this a problem? In short, your body will be slow to react and your injury potential will be as high as Snoop Dogg (that's right, I said it!).


Let’s say you are a baseball player and you have .30 seconds from the time the ball leaves the pitchers hand to the time it reaches your contact zone (reaction time equates to about a 90 mph fastball). Through practice you can read the pitcher’s release point to know if it’s going to be a ball or strike almost instantaneously. In other words, you don’t have to burn .20 seconds of your available .30 seconds to read and recognize the pitch- which is how long it generally takes random test subjects to respond in randomized scientific settings that guage visual reaction times. Anyways, being able to optimize your feedforward and feedback mechanisms through actual participation of sport (hmm, that's a novel concept of late) means you have a bit more time to respond. But let’s say that it still takes you .10 seconds to recognize the pitch type and location. That gives you .20 seconds to get the bat head on the ball. If you’ve been performing a bunch of reactive work then your neuro-muscular system can be conditioned to achieve peak twitch of your muscle fibers in .20 seconds- no problem! But if you’ve been focusing on strength work then you may actually de-condition your system to the point that you’re recruiting your muscles slower, delaying peak-twitch activation, and increasing the decay of tension-release. For all of you still trying to pay attention, this means "big problem!" In this case you can see that it doesn’t matter that you are stronger because your explosive-power numbers are going to be down on the playing field! In fact, that's all that really matters. Just ask any precision-skill athlete, especially a power-precision athlete, nothing sucks worse then telling your body what to do but it’s too slow to respond.


Another major problem with strength work is it will teach your system to hold onto tension too long. As a sprinter this can be dangerous. As you “spring” down the track you don’t want to be wasting energy because your muscles won't relax when they need to relax because this will cause you to (a) hit a wall towards the end of the race and (b) produce less power per positive and negative contraction stroke (remember what we said about the relationship between power absorption and power production). A simple way to remember this concept is to know that your reactive ability will be greater following a state of relaxation than a state of tension. One last point about retaining the strength of contraction too long is the poor release of tension has been shown to lead to muscle strains, such as hamstrings pulls.


------

For one, strength work will tell your system to turn on slow and sustain tension. Speed work on the other hand will tell your system to turn on quick and release tension rapidly. These are obviously two completely different “neuromuscular programs”. Which ones do you want to teach your system? Remember, only the “quick to rise, quick to release” athlete will survive in elite sports this day and age, so there’s really no question that your sports training efforts should center around power development strategies.
As a side note, if you were to mix strength and speed in a single training session, single training day, or in "companion session" format the development of each independent element (speed, strength) would decrease since your system doesn’t know if it should adapt to the speed stimulus or to the strength stimulus (i.e. increase its rapid-fire ability or increase its strain-time ability). This basically means that you can waste your time training speed and strength together- there’s plenty of coaches who do that- but you are going to be holding your strength development back with your speed work and you are going to sabotage your speed development with your strength work! Why work your ass off to go nowhere?


If your relative power output scores are closer to 51% AW 1RM than 74% AW 1RM then there is no question what you need to do with your training: emphasize explosive-strength and explosive-power development methods(a.k.a. Strength-Speed and Speed-Strength Methodics).

 

[b fold the truth]

Are you training for Martial Arts?

Trying to increase your kicking speed/strength?

B True

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Training in no specific art yet. Soon I'll be taking a BJJ class with a former UFC champion recommended to me by a very close teacher who's been training in martial arts for years now.

Anyway, I'm looking to train to develop better strikes. More powerful, swifter, deadly strikes. Kicks, punches, elbows and knees...

Anything that would help me win a fight. Whether it be a street fight or a match in the ring. Anything functional.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

"That's bullshit! Even though the strength training approach may help them increase their force absorption potential, especially in terms of being able to lower heavy weights under control, it's only when you increase your ability to absorb more power will you realize the greatest gains in your power production development! So much for your cut and dry powerlifting and/or bodybuilding routine, huh? What may interest you bodybuilders and powerlifters, however, is that as your power production values go up then your hypertrophy potential goes through the roof. Once you capture this hypertrophy potential then you will have raised your strength threshold, once again, setting a new stone for power development. That's one you're sure to hear regurgitated by all of my copy-cat coaches out there!"

He agrees with DC, there.

"...Another major problem with strength work is it will teach your system to hold onto tension too long. As a sprinter this can be dangerous. As you “spring” down the track you don’t want to be wasting energy because your muscles won't relax when they need to relax because this will cause you to (a) hit a wall towards the end of the race and (b) produce less power per positive and negative contraction stroke (remember what we said about the relationship between power absorption and power production). A simple way to remember this concept is to know that your reactive ability will be greater following a state of relaxation than a state of tension..."

What is the above saying? The entire last line, really. Reactive ability will be greater following a state of relaxation than one of tension? Is that like the whole "don't make a solid fist until you're about to land the punch" thing? You know, keeping the hand "loose" until the strike and all?



And finally, I read it all and I'm going to go through it again in an hour to try and grasp more of it because I'm not following some of the vocabulary in there (long day and I have music on some I'm half-focused), but the last line basically talks about how training for both at the same time will kind've slow down your potential gains in either...so what's best? To train for one, then the other? Or will that just ruin you anyway?

I would think strength work, followed by speed work in the future. You know, the entire "building a base" deal, then following up that with tweaking of your speed and RFD and such.

 

[shogun4877]

you training at the gracie academy in manhattan?

 

[b fold the truth]

Training in no specific art yet. Soon I'll be taking a BJJ class with a former UFC champion recommended to me by a very close teacher who's been training in martial arts for years now.

Anyway, I'm looking to train to develop better strikes. More powerful, swifter, deadly strikes. Kicks, punches, elbows and knees...

Anything that would help me win a fight. Whether it be a street fight or a match in the ring. Anything functional.

The MOST important thing that you need to do right now is this...

1) Start training in Martial Arts.

I've been hit by guys who were 150 pounds, skin and bones, and weak in the gym...but they were PERFECT at their fighting. Getting bigger and stronger will help you, a good deal.

Squat
Deadlift
Clean and Press
Overhed Press (standing)
Chins
Barbell Rows
Dips
Incline Bench
LOTS of grip work
LOTS of ab work

Those are the basics...

B True

 

[coolcolj]

He agrees with DC, there.

No, I don't see it. There is no power work in DC!
slow eccentrics actually decreases power...

"...Another major problem with strength work is it will teach your system to hold onto tension too long. As a sprinter this can be dangerous. As you “spring” down the track you don’t want to be wasting energy because your muscles won't relax when they need to relax because this will cause you to (a) hit a wall towards the end of the race and (b) produce less power per positive and negative contraction stroke (remember what we said about the relationship between power absorption and power production). A simple way to remember this concept is to know that your reactive ability will be greater following a state of relaxation than a state of tension..."

What is the above saying? The entire last line, really. Reactive ability will be greater following a state of relaxation than one of tension? Is that like the whole "don't make a solid fist until you're about to land the punch" thing? You know, keeping the hand "loose" until the strike and all?

Well basicly, when you lift heavy weights, the type of contraction used is a long duration and slow release type over 1 sec usually. The body/CNS adapts to how it's being asked to contract.
With his example of someone sprinting, think about the rate of contraction when running. You will hit 4-5 strides per sec, that means you muscles have to contract and relax 4-5 times each stride in 0.25 secs or less. If your CNS is adapted to contracting for 1sec at a time and a slow relaxation, your sure as hell not going to be sprinting too well, and one reason why many gym rats pull hammies and such when they do try, because their muscles are still tensed when the foot lands when it should be relaxed. Plus it wastes energy, you can last a lot longer the more often your msucles are relaxed than contracting.

What he is saying is that if the muscle is relaxed entering into the stretch reflex phase, it will generate more power and a faster contraction. You can see this when doing plyo pushups against a bench. When you land relaxed you can fire out quicker back up, vs when you land with your arms and chest tensed --> no bounce
I would say that would apply to your example of the fist, since a tight fist will induce tension in the arms. I know from my past boxing experience that is teh case.

And finally, I read it all and I'm going to go through it again in an hour to try and grasp more of it because I'm not following some of the vocabulary in there (long day and I have music on some I'm half-focused), but the last line basically talks about how training for both at the same time will kind've slow down your potential gains in either...so what's best? To train for one, then the other? Or will that just ruin you anyway?

I would think strength work, followed by speed work in the future. You know, the entire "building a base" deal, then following up that with tweaking of your speed and RFD and such.

Well training for strength will improve explosiveness, and training for strength speed will improve strength and explosiveness. Whilst training for speed strength will improve strength speed and general quickness. But doing any of these in isolation will get you nowhere after a point in time. You have to figure what you goal is and work your weakness.

Point is, you will get stronger faster if you work on strength a little bit and strength speed a lot, if your strong (have good strain ability) but lack ability to push things fast. And vice versa if your fast, but lack ability to strain --> working more on strain and less on strength speed will get you stronger faster
Every person is different in their neural makeup, and you need to design your training to suit. You can't use cookie cutter schemes and expect to make optimal progress.

Then there comes a point in time when you your no longer training for powerlifter type strength ie, most athletes, the strength work takes a back seat. If you can't apply your strength quickly and relax just as fast, it's useless. As long as power levels keep increasing with speed strength and strength speed work, you never need to worry about strength work. Only when you have plateaued then you go back and gain some more strength, but still maintaing your speed etc.
But strength speed work will eventually get over 75% of your strength levels anyway, so it itself will help increase your strength

In the end it's all about training the CNS, forget about muscles, because the CNS is the controller. You need to program the right software into it.
The elite power athletes all share one thing, a very fast and effcient CNS. Muscle fiber type and size doesn't rate much.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Great response, definitely answered my questions. I confused power and strength gains with the whole DC training remark. I think the same still applies, generally.

Anyway, what would examples of strength-speed and speed-strength work be? Sorry for all the questions, I just want to get this right, and while the article was very helpful, I didn't see any prime examples of how to go about training each. I see percentages and such, but how to go about finding your AW-1RMs and what exercises to use when etc. just baffles me.

I'll pick it up in time, I just have to start researching this stuff now.

 

[coolcolj]

Anyway, what would examples of strength-speed and speed-strength work be? Sorry for all the questions, I just want to get this right, and while the article was very helpful, I didn't see any prime examples of how to go about training each. I see percentages and such, but how to go about finding your AW-1RMs and what exercises to use when etc. just baffles me.

I'll pick it up in time, I just have to start researching this stuff now.

Each type is basicly to do with the quality of contraction speed and load


strength speed is what its name applies, more on the strength side but with speed. Think speed squats, reactive squats, olys etc. Moving moderate to moderate-heavy loads fast

Speed strength is more reactive and on the lighter side, where speed is the more dominant factor. Ie jumpsquats, plyo pushups, bench throws, lighter speed squats and benchs stuff, medball throws, depth jumps, alttitude drops and so on

There is third area called rate work. Where the cyclic speed rather than max power is the main goal, ie how fast you feet and arms move without regard
to the force they exert. Stuff liking rope skipping, sprinting when you reach max speed (not while acclerating though) would be considered rate activities

AW 1RMs is where you just add the correct bodweight % used to the actual barweight.

From Db Hammer's 8th June Q&A-
as far as the words he uses - Duration work is like pure strength and repetition stuff. Magnitude is basicly power/speed work. Rate is as described above. These catergories are more to do with the neural impulse that is triggered in the CNS. Duration - big long slow curve. Magnitude, is a short sharp high rise and decay. Rate is high frequency, shallow blips

if you want to learn more - go to his site here http://www.inno-sport.net/
and read all the articles, but start with the training basics one, or else you won't understand what the hell he is talking about, but his newer articles get easier. You need his book to get the most out of the info, which in itself isn't an easy read without a training science background
but his stuff will explain a lot of the concepts which are just guesswork for other strength coaches

Appropriate Measures
Appropriate Measures

There is a big difference between taking straight weight percents and using my Appropriation of Weight(AW) techniques. For instance, some generic repetition-percent charts will tell that you can only get 2 reps with 90% of your max whereas others will claim that you should be able to get as much as 6 reps per set with the same percent of your max. And not only do these generic charts hold more faults as the training percent get further away from your established one rep max, but there are individual differences that must be taken into account. Moreover, even if the proper chart is adopted for a specific athlete in a specific movement, the chart automatically becomes invalid once the movement is switched up.

This was obviously baffling to the coaches of yester-year who strived to assign loading parameters to their athletes based on percent guidelines for a given repetition count(i.e. 3 x 8 reps @ 77.5% 1RM). They didn't know if they should trust one chart that said the athlete should be able to get 8 reps with 85% of their max or another one that said 75% of their max is best. And frustration really set in when they tried to apply these same chart guidelines to various movements. For instance, one particular athlete may be able to get 11 reps with 80% of his max in the bench press but only get 5 reps with 80% of his max squat, whereas, another athlete may be able to get 6 reps with 80% in the bench and, say, only 3 reps with 80% in the squat. So as the movement and athlete varied so did the reliability of the charts. This quickly resulted in some athletes over-training, others under-training, and a very, very small population of athletes training correctly and seeing the results that go with it! What a crap shoot it was, indeed!

We knew immediately that the problem was rooted deeper than just neuro-muscular efficiency. We know that an athlete can be strong but have no strength endurance just as much as an athlete can have pretty good strength endurance but not so great absolute strength(even though the broad-scope correlation is still there). So these charts were almost immediately found to be a poor resource for duration methodics. Again, this is because we know that we can manipulate the system to decrease magnitude ability through conservation of work techniques. But, hold on tight my friend, that's not the only reason these charts were complete crap. In particular, these charts were less reliable during the movements that involved a large portion of bodyweight lifted in addition to bar weight.

For instance, some athletes can't do a pullup with external resistance. Others can't do a body dip or squat with any "additional" load. This doesn't mean that they aren't encountering any resistance when they attempt to do a free body squat or a parallel bar body dip...it means that a certain percentage of the athletes bodyweight is lifted in addition to any external resistance added to the movement (and this "rule" holds true for every movement in the weight room!).

For instance, if you weigh 150 kg (330 lbs) and you can squat 300 kg (660 lbs) of barweight then in all actuality you are a 438 kg squatter (963.6 lbs)! Some of you are probably still wondering why this particular example athlete isn't considered in my book to just be a 300 kg squatter...whereas others are probably baffled as to why I consider him a 438 kg squatter instead of a 450 kg squatter. For the first crowd, you need to realize that bar weight is only a portion of the total weight lifted. Whether the weight is a "part of you" or stacked on your back, it doesn't really matter, it's all still a portion of the total weight lift. Counting only bar weight is just as stupid a mistake as counting only the proportion of body weight lifted for a given movment and assuming any degree of additional bar weight to be a non-factor. To the rest of you: the answer to your questions is in the immediate information below!

Even though most of my duration methodics use the constant of time and are then "fitted" with the correct amount of additional load, there are some duration methodics(such as paused repetition protocols) that make it mandatory to know appropriation of weight techniques(in addition to knowing how the speed of movement for a certain portion of the lift changes the amount of weight needed for the movement). And without a doubt, magnitude methodics are heavily reliant on knowing how to use appropriation of weight techniques. So let's take a look at some basic bodyweight percent-factors to work with and then discuss how to use 'em.



Approximate Percent of Bodyweight

Head: 10%

Trunk: 45%

Upper Arm: 7%

Forearm: 4%

Hand: 1%

Thigh: 25%

Lower Leg: 6%

Foot: 2%



Now, all you have to do is total the percents of bodyweight lifted for a given movement. For instance, according to this chart, 92% of your bodyweight (everything except the lower leg and foot is "lifted") is needed to be overcome when performing a squat. However, laws of leverages and other finite variances of lifter to lifter and athlete to athlete have lead us to adopt an 85% factor...but, nonetheless, now you should be able to understand why a bodyweight squat is never "loadless." Ever wonder why pullups are so damn hard? Well, look no further than appropriation of weight techniques to understand this. The only body parts not lifted in the movement are your forearms and hands...a measly 5% of your total bodyweight. This means that you are actually lifting 95% of your bodyweight when performing a pullup. That is, a 100 kg (220 lbs) man would need the strength to overcome 95 kg (209 lbs) just to perform a single pullup with his bodyweight alone! And if he cradles a 20 kg (44 lbs) dumbell between his legs or straps it to a loading belt then he isn't just lifting 20 kg's...no sir...he is lifting 115 kg (253 lbs). Now do you see why your years spent with inferior weights on the lat machine have failed to help you become a better "pulluper"?

Now, to appropriate weight you have to calculate the actual load (using the chart above and referencing the above examples if needed) by calculating how much bodyweight is lifted as well as additional loading (such as barbells or dumbells). You then multiply by the training percent desired, followed by subtracting out your bodyweight lifted to result in the appropriate training percents.

For instance, if you want to train in the magnitude modality with speed reps in the bench press and you are a 120 kg (264 lbs) man with a 240 kg (528 lbs) max then you first have to decide what percent you want to work with. Let's say that you are going to use a wave load technique and alternate sets of 74% AW 1RM with 63% AW 1RM. Using the chart above, you can see that only 5% of the bodyweight is "lifted" in this movement. (note: we often use different percents for the same reasons listed above regarding the squat example) This means that only 6 kg or 13.2 lbs are lifted when this athlete lays on his back and presses his arms in a bench press motion. It also means that he is actually lifting 246 kg (541.2 lbs) when he hits a max single. Now, step two calls for multiplying this value by your training percent. We have two in this example: 74% and 63%. So after the math we find values of 182 kg (400 lbs) and 155 kg (341 lbs). We then need to subtract the bodyweight lifted in the movement to finalize how much bar weight is needed to train with. So after subtracting 6 kg from each of these values we find that the appropriate weight (AW) to train with for 74% and 63% mag work, respectively, in this sample bench press workout are 176 kg (387 lbs) and 149 kg (328 lbs). Had we simply taken straight-weight percents then we would have arrived at training weight values of 178 kg (391 lbs) and 151 kg (333 lbs). And even though it is only a 2 kg mistake for each case, this small degree of error eventually leads to overtraining. But more importantly, when you take a movement with a greater percentage of bodyweight lifted, such as a pullup, bodydip or squat, then you will find the degree of error to be much greater if you don't appropriate weight. For instance, the degree of error for an athlete who uses straight weight techniques in the squat who weighs 100 kg man and who can squat 350 kg, assuming a 63% training weight value, is about 35 kg (76 lbs)! Now that is a huge error to make day in and day out, wouldn't you agree?!



And since I brought it up earlier, I may as well leave you with a more advanced application of appropriation of weight techniques. It involves the duration methodic of paused-reps. Now, in the bench press you can get away with using 75% of your 1RM with straight-weight techniques for a set of 6 paused reps, each held at the CJC for a 5 count before pumping a rep. This is because the bodyweight factor is low. However, with a movement like barbell squats, you would get crushed if you tried to use the same percent techniques! So here's what you do:



(1) Determine the "actual load" lifted in your one rep max

A 100 kg man who squats 200 kg has a bodyweight factor of roughly 92 kg, meaning his actual one rep max in the squat is 292 kg (bar weight lifted plus bodyweight lifted). This is the number you will need to go off of in step two:



(2) Take of 2% for every second pause in the isometric and take off 2.5% for every rep.

So if you want to hit 6 reps with a 5 second pause for each then you have a total of 15% off your 1RM because of the number or reps desired and an additional 10% lost because of the "pause durations" in between each rep. That is a lost value of 25%. Which means that you will need to train with 75% AW 1RM. Again, in bench press the bodyweight factor is so low that a straight-shot 75% may be close to working out just fine...but in the squat movement the margin of error would be way too great to even try it.



(3) Use Appropriation of Weight techniques to determine how much bar weight is needed.

In this example we are striving for 75%. So I will spare laying out the math for you because I want you to break out the pencil and paper and learn it for yourself, but I will tell you that the correct answer is 127 kg (280 lbs) of bar weight. Had you taken the old-school straight weight approach then you would have made a 23 kg blunder...which means that you would have strapped on over 50 lbs more than you should have to the bar. And needless to say, this is precisely the reason why you wouldn't have been able to complete the 6 reps as prescribed.


The moral is an easy one to remember: Don't get lazy, use appropriation of weight (AW) techniques whenever appropriate!

 

[Lord_Suston]

My honest opinion of the subject is there is a point where you get too big to fight. I am at that point right now due to all the strongman and powerlifting. But as general rule you need to look at training as off season and pre-season and then comps.

In off season you should work on your strength, and weak or lagging areas, not in a bodybuilding sense but more a functional sense, weak abs need to to be strengthened ect... (Absolute strength)

When you find that you are the apporiate strength then you work on explosive power such as oly lifts, squats with bands or chains. so you maintain strength and work on adding explosiveness into the equation.

Then you start adding in real speed work such as agility drill, sprints, water running ect.....at this ppoint you should not try to bring up aboslute strength, hopefully maintain it and improve explosive strength.

Then technique work of the martial art in question will start and priority will be on speed and your fighting ability and not really on absolute strength and a decreased emphasis on explosive strenght.


Basically if I wanted to grapple in NAGA, which I might do over the winter. (grappling based tournaments) I would stop my powerlifting and turn toward explosive lifting (cause I have enough strenght IMO) and start working on conditiong and technique about 8 weeks out I would lesson the lifting to 3x a week and up grappling to 3x a week at 4 weeks out I lift 1-2x a week whole body and grapple 3-4x a week and work on overall speed 2x a week. then 2 weeks out drop the lifting and work on condition and technique. The thing is I am not trying to learn a new art I know how to grapple proficiently so I would not have to learn new skill, which takes considerable amount of time so I could work on condition and overall speed more than technique

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Ohh just realized I had a question on this, Suston...

You say you already feel you have enough strength - well at what point do you see it as enough? I know it varies a lot, but you did say you feel there's a point where one is too big, so would there be any point where the limit on strength should be placed? Obviously if you can have more, it's better, but in general, going from 650 to 700 in a squat (just random, large numbers) won't do much in a fight.

 

[halfaclue]

maybe do a search on Mike McDOnald..if that is name..the black F-1 fighter with blonge hair. He is big and cut and exsplosive.

 

[Lord_Suston]

Ohh just realized I had a question on this, Suston...

You say you already feel you have enough strength - well at what point do you see it as enough? I know it varies a lot, but you did say you feel there's a point where one is too big, so would there be any point where the limit on strength should be placed? Obviously if you can have more, it's better, but in general, going from 650 to 700 in a squat (just random, large numbers) won't do much in a fight.

you just have to go by feel but i have one thing I measure it against. if I grapple in a 185 and lighter category I try to be stronger than the 185-200 and right in the mid range of 200-220 category. Example my friend who use to fight MMA was 240lbs, I could lift just as much as him so I decided to work on grappling and explosive strength as a primary goal. But on the other hand for speed I try to be just as fast as the group below my weight class.

So in the end I was:
Strength training like a 200-220lbs grappler
Working on speed like a 170-185lbs fighter
And work on skill level equavilent of that of a teacher

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

I have trained in BJJ and a litle bit in boxing. Just enough in each to get the basics down, so I think I can give you a few pointers. In BJJ, overall strength and power to weight is gonna help you the most, ie., get stronger without getting bigger. There are guys that can beat you because their technique is better or they wear you down, but if the technique isn't there, then all they can do is ride you out until you tire out. Endurance doesn't win fights instantly, but besides technique, strength and power can end it FAST. So I'd train primarily as a powerlifter and throw in powercleans, but that's just my opinion. Watch your calories because you don't want to bulk up, you jsut want to get stronger in the same weight class. Besides absolute strength and power, I'd work on ab strength, not endurance. Train your abs heavy and hard with weight. And lastly I'd work on flexibility. Flexibility is VERY important to being good at BJJ. It's hard to put a guy in a triangle choke if your groin, quads and hams aren't flexible enough.