Steve thanks for your input. the jcg was in back order, was planning on running it from week 4 to week 10. as for my pct, I chose this since its been around for many years and this stack has been around a very long time. what convinced me about choosing the nolvadex and clomid was a very interesting article by Llewyln where it was the only scientific proven pct here is the article : would you suggest lowering the dosages. why is nolvadex a no no with deca?
PCT Required?; Longjack; Long-Term TRT; Proviron for PCT
Is Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) Really Necessary?
Q: OK, I have been on test cyp for about 6-7 months now. I am going to try to come off. I AM NOT GOING TO PCT, unless can be avoided. Tell me why I should, and what to expect, and look out for, IN A NUTSHELL!!! …Why it is I should actually have to do this, instead of just blindly across the board telling everyone to "do their PCT". I am truly concerned about taking these drugs, and I am not convinced that my particular case will require.
A: The need for PCT (especially following longer cycles) is one of those things that, at least in my opinion, were established through anecdotal observations long before we had studies to look at “proving” it is right. The “post cycle crash” is something every steroid user had to historically deal with. As the cycles dragged on, most experienced steroid users would develop significant stories of crash and muscle loss. This is one of the reasons many steroid users would simply “stay on”. The ups and downs of steroid use can be a bitch, to put it frankly.
But as bodybuilders experimented more and more with other drugs, they began to develop PCT (Post-Cycle Therapy) approaches to restoring hormones more quickly based on theoretical models of what should happen with certain ancillary drugs and our bodies post cycle. Key to this became the use of HCG, Nolvadex, and Clomid, three drugs known to stimulate increased testosterone production in men. As the “early and less informed days” of the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s gave way to the 90’s and on, more people learned of these drugs, and began experimenting and reporting their own results. Consistently, it seemed that using these drugs post cycle was a big help.
But herein lies your dilemma. How do we know these drugs really work for PCT beyond unproven personal reports (which in the science world usually aren’t held in high regard)? While I know of no definitive placebo-controlled study proving a proper PCT program will work, I can give you two very quick bits of evidence that I feel strongly support what bodybuilders have long known – these drugs do help, at least somewhat, and at least most of the time.
1. Studies involving the use of fairly moderate doses of testosterone enanthate (250mg pre week if I recall correctly) showed a very long recovery window after use. The post-cycle androgen-deficient state lasted for as long as 4-6 months before pre-treated testosterone levels were restored. This is a long time to wait for a balanced endocrine system to return, and logically is not going to be a good stretch for maintaining muscle mass.
2. One abstract thus far has been presented discussing the results of a 45-day PCT program following steroid use. It is based on the combined/stepped use of HCG, Nolvadex, and Clomid. All subjects noticed a return to pretreated androgen levels by the end of the 45 day treatment with these drugs, which is significantly shorter time frame than the recovery window noticed with testosterone enanthate without PCT.
By the way, the abstract above is to my knowledge the only study ever conducted on a PCT program following steroid use. Many claim to have developed the “Ultimate PCT Program”, but such drug plans are based entirely on theories about what “should” work. For what it is worth, I recommend avoiding such theories, and instead paying attention to the one PCT program that has actually been studied by physicians (with seemingly good success I might add). Bottom line, for me the data and reports are strong enough to take a program like this seriously. Mind you, we are not talking about 100% muscle retention by any means. But the prospect of a 45-day recovery window is logically a lot more appealing than a 6-month window, even if we can never accurately quantify the end difference between both approaches.
The Long Jack Study? Long-term TRT.
Q: In your recent "Llewellyn on Steroids #7" you say "It is of note that Longjack was recently tested, and proven to increase androgen levels in men. But the increases were within the normal range, not supraphysiological (in excess of normal)". I can't seem to find any studies done on humans. Do you know where I can find them?
Also, if someone were considering going on a TRT program just to get their T levels up to the mid to top of normal range, is this something that they should consider trying first before using Exogenous Testosterone? And if so, what kind of dosage would be appropriate?
A: To answer the first part of your question, below is part of the abstract discussing Long Jack supplementation. As you can see, the supplement has a modest but measurable effect on cortisol and testosterone levels, and seems to support its use in this context. The full abstract can be found in the JIISN conference report at the following link:
http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.or...1-S1-29-06.pdf
“Subjects consumed 100mg of E (N = 15) or a look-alike placebo (P, N = 15) approximately 30 minutes prior to endurance exercise. Cortisol levels were 32.3% lower in E compared to P (0.552+0.665 versus 0.816+0.775 ug/dL, P < 0.05). Testosterone levels were 16.4% higher in E compared to P (86.72+40.90 versus 72.47+33.77 pg/mL, P < 0.05). These results suggest that Eurycoma longifolia extract may help to maintain normal levels of cortisol (low) and testosterone (high) and thus promotean overall “anabolic” hormonal state (versus a “catabolic” state characterized by elevated cortisol and suppressed testosterone) during intense endurance exercise.”
With that said, what direction you should take your personal medical/supplementation is going to be a very individual choice. For what it is worth I will give you my .02. I think that there are many viable supplements that can help someone increase their total and free testosterone levels. In the short term, these appear to offer some measurable value to many individuals. What benefits and risks these may have in the long term, especially with regard to extended therapy to increase androgen levels, however, remains to be seen. There have been no long-term studies in this regard with any testosterone boosting supplements. But such is the nature of progress, especially in the realm of supplementation, which garners far less profits and research dollars than the pharmaceutical industry.
For what it is worth, if it was me, and I were considering my long term options, I’d probably consider basic testosterone replacement therapy. Although still growing, this area of medicine has seen extensive study. We have the long-term studies, and pretty much know exactly what we are getting with testosterone therapy. After all, you are putting into your body the same exact hormone it used to make ample levels of in youth. So in this regard, we know the hormone and how it works. Furthermore, we have little unanswered questions about the mechanism in which this hormone is being elevated. We’re simply supplying more of it with a gel, patch, injection, etc. It may very well be that some of these supplements turn out to be great long-term options for increasing androgen levels as we age, but we simply don’t know (enough) yet to make definitive judgments and recommendations.
Proviron for PCT?
Q: I have read mixed opinions on whether PROVIRON (mesterolone) can be used effectively to assist in post cycle recovery, or whether it has a negative effect on the recovery of the HPTA. If it can be used at what dosage and duration would you recommend?
A: You are probably going to continue to get mixed views on this, due to the fact that no study has ever been done to my knowledge evaluating the effect that Proviron will have during the post-cycle recovery window, and at what dose said effect is established. Whatever is being said about it in this regard is stemming from studies on men with intact hormonal systems. In this area, we can say with certainty that the drug has a weak effect on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis. It will suppress androgen levels, but its weak general effect makes it comparably much milder than most steroids in this regard. Usually any effect it does have is not deemed significant in these studies. But again, these studies involve an intact hormonal axis, with normal levels of testosterone already being produced. What we are trying to determine here is if this weak effect is enough to hinder hormonal recovery following steroid use. The simple answer is, “We don’t know”.
I can tell you what makes sense to me. First, Proviron is a weak steroid in general, with a poor ability to dodge enzymes in skeletal muscle that prevent it from having a strong effect here. So with regard to the main issue of PCT, namely restoring androgen action in muscle tissue as quickly as possible so as to maintain optimal levels of activity and muscle mass, it is going to offer little value as a supplement. It simply isn’t strong enough as an anabolic to appreciably build muscle mass, and on the same note it isn’t going to have enough effect here to inhibit muscle catabolism in the face of suppressed testosterone. At least, that has been my experience and observations. Any effect it seems to have post-cycle is more mental; energy, sense of well being, libido – these may all be positively effected by Proviron during periods of low androgenicity.
But the main question still remains. What will it do to recovery? Again, since science doesn’t know, nobody can say for sure how much it will negatively affect recovery, if at all. We do know for sure that, at the very least, it certainly isn’t going to help hasten recovery. Whatever mild suppressive effect it might turn out to have, therefore, needs to be taken into consideration before use. In my personal opinion, I think the potential for interference (slowed recovery period) here outweighs any value it may have on libido, etc. But again, you are going to get many different opinions. What you feel is right for yourself may differ from what someone else is telling you. For my .02, I wouldn’t bother with it.
Source: mesomorphosis.com
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