Sharing some Knowledge: Too much soy is damaging

[ColdCut]

I usually dont have anything helpful to add (cuz i just starting bb) but finally i found something to contribute to the guys that are such a big help. Here is part of an article on myths about soy and its properties from may 03 mens health magazine.

"Myth: A soy burger is healther than a beef burger

Here's the problem: Soy, in all its forms, contains phytoestrogens-that is, plant estrogens. And while having some of the female hormone in our bodies is okay, and even normal, having high amounts of the plant version isn't. In fact, Australian researchers found that men who consumed a soy-rich diet had significantly lower testosterone levels than beef eaters. And as for red meat's artery-clogging reputation, a study published in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition showed that eating lean beef can help to lower LDL cholesterol levels while increasing HDL levels."

so there you have it bros, skip that girly soy burger and go for some macho BEEF.

 

[ColdCut]

oh and props goes out to twisted: his post made me post this study

his thread is at

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=278134

 

[Mr.X]

I usually dont have anything helpful to add (cuz i just starting bb) but finally i found something to contribute to the guys that are such a big help. Here is part of an article on myths about soy and its properties from may 03 mens health magazine.

"Myth: A soy burger is healther than a beef burger

Here's the problem: Soy, in all its forms, contains phytoestrogens-that is, plant estrogens. And while having some of the female hormone in our bodies is okay, and even normal, having high amounts of the plant version isn't. In fact, Australian researchers found that men who consumed a soy-rich diet had significantly lower testosterone levels than beef eaters. And as for red meat's artery-clogging reputation, a study published in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition showed that eating lean beef can help to lower LDL cholesterol levels while increasing HDL levels."

so there you have it bros, skip that girly soy burger and go for some macho BEEF.

I read that study before and it always supported my view about soy - BAD. Just as in the case when soy is suggested to combat prostate cancer, all that is being said is that you need to lower your testosterone to combat prostate cancer - which is not something I would want to do. In turn, lower testosterone and higher estrogen can increase other cancer risk like breast cancer - yes, men can get breast cancer. That is why all those one-side blinded studies are flawed. Good post ColdCut.

Mr.X

 

[variation]

a blurb in a magazine isn't the most credible source of information...

Now in regards to soy being suggested for treatment of prostate cancer--- It really doesn't help... read...


Minimal effect of a low-fat/high soy diet for asymptomatic, hormonally naive prostate cancer patients.

Spentzos D, Mantzoros C, Regan MM, Morrissey ME, Duggan S, Flickner-Garvey S, McCormick H, DeWolf W, Balk S, Bubley GJ.

Divisions of Hematology/Oncology, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts 02215, USA.

PURPOSE: The effects of a low-fat diet or a low-fat diet with the addition of a soy supplement were investigated in a pilot Phase II study for asymptomatic, hormonally naive prostate cancer patients with rising prostate-specific antigen (PSA) levels. Experimental Design: A two-step intervention was implemented. During step 1 patients were begun on a low-fat diet with a goal to reduce fat intake to 15% of total daily calories. On PSA progression, a soy protein supplement was added to the diet (step 2). The primary end point was PSA reduction by 50%. Secondary end points were PSA doubling time and time to progression (TTP). Serum was analyzed for changes in the sex hormone and insulin-like growth factor (IGF-I) axes. RESULTS: Among 18 evaluable patients, (median follow-up on study 10.5 months), no patient on either step had a PSA reduction by 50% at any time. There was a trend toward a longer PSA doubling time (P = 0.06) and a prolongation in estimated median TTP of approximately 3 months (P = 0.018) during step 2 compared with step 1 of the study. During step 1, free testosterone levels decreased by 5% (P < 0.01), and during step 2, IGF-I levels increased by 22% (P = 0.02). CONCLUSIONS: A low-fat diet with the subsequent addition of a soy supplement did not result in a significant decline in PSA levels. The addition of soy protein had a modest effect on TTP. A potentially undesirable effect associated with the administration of soy was an increase in IGF-1 serum levels.

PMID: 12960113 [PubMed - in process]


however, they did notice an increase in IGF-1, bad for people with prostate cancer, not bad for bodybuilders or people without cancer.. however since they do not get into how substantial this is, don't bother considering it for the time being.

here we go, soy isoflavone effect on women...


Effect of soy supplementation on endogenous hormones in postmenopausal women.

Foth D, Nawroth F.

Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Cologne, Cologne, Germany. [email protected]

AIM: The purpose of this study was to investigate the effect of soy supplementation with isoflavones on plasma hormone levels in postmenopausal women. METHODS: 16 postmenopausal women (mean age 56.21 +/- 5.01 years) were assigned to 24 weeks of dietary soy supplementation. A defined soy protein amount per day (20 g) with a low dosage of isoflavones (20 mg) was used. Plasma samples were analyzed for estradiol, FSH, LH, prolactin, testosterone and DHEAS. RESULTS: After 24 weeks of soy supplementation, plasma levels of estradiol did not increase. Gonadotropins, prolactin and the measured plasma androgens remained unchanged. We did not see any significant treatment effects. CONCLUSIONS: In the postmenopausal hypoestrogenic situation, soy protein consumption with low isoflavones does not influence endogenous hormone levels of estradiol and gonadotropins. Copyright 2003 S. Karger AG, Basel

PMID: 12865591 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


no effect noted on hormone levels.

here we go, soy milk intake effect on men...



oy milk intake in relation to serum sex hormone levels in British men.

Allen NE, Appleby PN, Davey GK, Key TJ.

Cancer Research UK Epidemiology Unit, University of Oxford, Oxford OX2 6HE, UK. [email protected]

Soy beans contain high levels of the isoflavones genistein and daidzein and their glycosides and have been implicated in the prevention of prostate cancer, possibly via their effects on sex hormone metabolism. The aim of this study was to assess the relation between dietary soy intake and sex hormone levels in a cross-sectional analysis of 696 men with a wide range of soy intakes. Soy milk intake was measured using a validated semiquantitative food frequency questionnaire, and serum hormone concentrations were measured by immunoassay. Multiple regression was used to investigate the association between soy milk intake, an index of isoflavone intake, and hormone levels after adjustment for pertinent confounders. Soy milk intake was not associated with serum concentrations of testosterone, free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide, sex hormone-binding globulin, or luteinizing hormone. These results suggest that soy milk intake, as a marker of isoflavone intake, is not associated with serum sex hormone concentrations among free-living Western men.



Now, people often think, that because it contains phytoestrogens... people hear the word estrogen and they freak out, usually most accept these articles bashing it without consideration.

Why?

because it's not a tradition in the american life style, so easily dismissed, and all those that do drink it can be classified as 'wierdos' or 'girly' because they are not like the rest..

Infact the phytoestrogens in soy are very weak, they do bind to both estrogen receptors alpha and beta; however, they exert anti-estrogenic effects on ER-alpha (they bind and are far too weak to cause any mammary duct growth or any estrogen hormone related side effects, and since they are occupying the ER's.

Guess what? estradiol and other potent estrogens are in competition to bind!

Sound familiar?

Yes, it should if you knew anyone using tamoxifen, or even among bodybuilders, when infact few bodybuilders know tamoxifen and clomid are really weak synthetic estrogens, quite like soy...


Now let's get to the issue of the effects on ER-beta.

ER-beta you ask?

Well, to some it's new... researches for many years only knew of ER-alpha, but ER-beta predominates in ER responsive tissues, such as bone and the bladder. phytoestrogens exert more effect, though still little among these tissues, which is good, not bad, however little it be, as well as positive effects on lipid levels.

Maybe you think Bullshit?
Don't believe me?

This is fair, but let's examine a recent study...



Relationship between estrogen receptor-binding and estrogenic activities of environmental estrogens and suppression by flavonoids.

Han DH, Denison MS, Tachibana H, Yamada K.

Department of Environmental Toxicology, University of California, Davis 95616-8588, USA. [email protected]

In this study, we investigated the estrogenic activity of environmental estrogens by a competition binding assay using a human recombinant estrogens receptor (hERbeta) and by a proliferation assay using MCF-7 cells and a sulforhodamine-B assay. In the binding assay, pharmaceuticals had a stronger binding activity to hERbeta than that of some phytoestrogens (coumestrol, daidzein, genistein, luteolin, chrysin, flavone, and naringenin) or industrial chemicals, but phytoestrogens such as coumestrol had a binding activity as strong as pharmaceuticals such as 17alpha-ethynylestradiol (EE), tamoxifen (Tam), and mestranol. In the proliferation assay, pharmaceuticals such as diethylstilbestrol, EE, Tam, and clomiphene, and industrial chemicals such as 4-nonylphenol, bisphenol A, and 4-dihydroxybiphenyl had a proliferation-stimulating activity as strong as 17beta-estradiol (ES). In addition, we found that phytoestrogens such as coumestrol, daidzein, luteolin, and quercetin exerted a proliferation stimulating activity as strong as ES. Furthermore, we examined the suppression of proliferation-stimulating activity, induced by environmental estrogen, by flavonoids, such as daidzein, genistein, quercetin, and luteolin, and found that these flavonoids suppressed the induction of the proliferation-stimulating activity of environmental estrogens. The suppressive effect of flavonoids suggests that these compounds have anti-estrogenic and anti-cancer activities.



Speculation to many of these issues is a thing of the past, I suggest some read up on some newer research if giving opinions on the matter, unstead of referencing articles based on old research on rats.

*note I used no rat or mice research hahhaa...

 

[Nathan101085]

the soy

Though soy proteins contain these estrogenic compounds, it appears that they are "tissue specific." One study that used Rhesus monkeys found that soy proteins had no effects on the reproductive hormones of these animals. Testosterone, DHEAS, sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), testicular weight, prostatic weight, and other measurements were taken. They found no difference between male animals who ate soy protein that contained the plant estrogens and those who ate soy with the estrogens removed, leading researchers to conclude: "thus, the isoflavones (genistein and diadzein) in soy protein improve cardiovascular risk factors without apparent deleterious effects on the reproductive system."

Also, "Genistein's effects appear to be tissue specific, with estrogen agonist effects on plasma lipid concentrations, plasma lipoprotein distributions and preservation of bone mass that are similar in magnitude to mammalian estrogens, but without estrogenic effects..."

They finally conclude "Our data support an interpretation that soy beans estrogens have tissue specificity in part because of their mixed estrogen agonist and antagonist properties." From this and other data, it seems the phyto estrogens in soy can lower cholesterol and improve heart disease risk without systemic estrogenic effects (i.e. gyno, bodyfat increases, etc.) that would normally be seen if say a bodybuilder took estrogen pills or from the conversion of certain steroids to estrogen. This study is a little more relevant to us humans being it was done with male monkeys which are far more similar animals to people than rats.


http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/willbrink4.htm


Though some research has shown changes in T3 and thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), the real effect appears to be with T4 which is elevated consistently in the studies done using animals-and to a lesser degree people-eating soy proteins. Also, some studies have found changes in the insulin/glucagon ratio that would favor reductions in cholesterol and possibly bodyfat. At this time, exactly how soy proteins have this effect on thyroid output is not well understood, but their working on it.

So what does the above information mean to the bodybuilder? There are two points I think are the most relevant to strength athletes. (1) Though thyroid hormones are considered catabolic hormones, they are actually more catabolic to fat and carbohydrates, but stimulate protein synthesis if adequate calories are eaten and the amounts of thyroid hormones are not to high. This could be useful for increasing protein synthesis and reducing bodyfat. More research needs to be done in this area of course. (2) When a person diets the success of that diet is quickly brought to a screeching halt when the body figures out what you are up to and reduces the output of thyroid hormones.

 

[Mr.X]

Studies not done on humans cannot be compared or contrasted to anything. Rhesus monkeys are not humans - enough said.

Mr.X

 

[Nathan101085]

Can someone find some studies that prove that the estrogenic effects of soy are enough to acutally affect a human? Also it should be noted, and you can contact manufacturers on this one that all the "anti-nutrients" found in Soy, are not found in Soy Protein Isolate supplements. The are removed by the manufacturer. Another often added benefit is that the manufacturers add to Soy Isolate is the addition of methionine. Methionine is an essential amino acid that is not synthesized by the body and must be obtained from food. It is one of the sulphur containing amino acids and is important in many body functions. Through its supply of sulphur, it improves the tone and pliability of the skin, conditions the hair and strengthens nails. The mineral sulphur also protects the cells from airborne pollutants, such as smog, slows down the aging process in the cells, and is involved with the production of protein. Methionine is essential for the absorption and transportation and bio-availability of selenium and zinc in the body. It also acts as a lipotropic agent to prevent excess fat buildup in the liver, and is an excellent chelator of heavy metals, such as lead, cadmium and mercury, binding them and aiding in their excretion from the body.

 

[Mr.X]

It's simple: go to a Medical Library and look at:

Robert K. Sammto. "Human Genome in the 21st century." 2001 ed.

He talks about the negative benefits of soy, as well as some of the positives; however, all his work is with humans.


On a side note, Methionine can be obtained from eating Meat, fish, and dairy, which are all good sources of methionine. Vegetarians can obtain methionine from whole grains, but beans are a relatively poor source of this amino acid.

you can skim over this:
McAuley DF, Hanratty CG, McGurk C, et al. Effect of methionine supplementation on endothelial function, plasma homocysteine, and lipid peroxidation. J Toxicol Clin Toxicol 1999;37:435–40.

Mr.X

 

[variation]

Was unable to read the works of Robert K. Sammto, but I did look at the methionine study..


"The aim of the study was to investigate if methionine supplementation causes changes in endothelial function, plasma homocysteine, or lipid peroxidation which may be associated with atherosclerosis."


The concern was over the methionine in acetaminophen tablets..
conclusions were...



Methionine supplementation does not impair endothelial-dependent vascular responses in healthy volunteers. Although high-dose methionine administration causes elevation of plasma homocysteine concentrations, doses similar to those used in combination preparations with acetaminophen do not affect plasma homocysteine concentrations.


but... I don't get the relevance?

 

[Mr.X]

but... I don't get the relevance?

that was in response to Nathan101085's post

Mr.X