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Roy Jones Jr VS Tito Ortiz

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PolishHammer1977

New member
There both Light Heavyweight champions right now. This is a unification bout. Both warriors have to wear 8 ounce gloves and everything is allowed except for head butts. 5 rounds of 5 minutes.
Who wins and how long does it take?
 
As much as I like Roy, I'd unfortunately have to give the edge to Tito. He has a larger arsenal at his disposal. Just like Roy would tear him a new asshole if it was strictly boxing. I would say Tito in 2 or 3 rounds. Then again, you never know. Roy is so quick and with 8 oz gloves he might fucking tko ol' Tito before he can ever lock him down and put the hurting on him. That would be a sweet fight, never will happen though.
 
Corn,
What do you think would be the determining factor?


Bullet,
Not yet, we have to get this one decided first.

Notorious,
Tremendous response. k on the way.
 
I think the longer rounds would favor Jones as he has tremendous conditioning and I think that would give him the advantage
 
Cornholio said:
I think the longer rounds would favor Jones as he has tremendous conditioning and I think that would give him the advantage
Click to expand...

How do you think Roy would fare with Ortiz's ability to incorporate Muay Thai? He did have a strong showing of the Muay Thai fundamentals when he fought Ken Shamrock.
 
I haven't seen Tito fight. But any good ground fighter should be able to take a boxer off his feet fairly quickly. Once he does, it's over. If Roy has limited ground skills, his only chance is to land one big punch. Highly unlikely, It is not hard to avoid a punch, even from a great fighter. I used to work with Bobby Mashburn who was a top ten heavyweight and fought Larry Holmes. His son is Jamaal Mashburn of the NBA. He said that if a person wants to avoid getting hit, it's not that hard. But he would be disqualified for not fighting. I don't see how Jones could win if this Tito is for real. He certainly couldn't beat a good olympic wrestler.
 
Bite me,
If it is a coincidence, my X's father used to own a piece of Larry when he was the champ. Great boxer in his prime and Don King made all his $.
Watch Tito fight.
 
PolishHammer1977 said:
Bite me,
If it is a coincidence, my X's father used to own a piece of Larry when he was the champ. Great boxer in his prime and Don King made all his $.
Watch Tito fight.
Click to expand...

Yes, Larry was one of the greats. I used to watch all the UFC's when they first came out. Haven't watched any in a while. I remember the gold medal olympic wrestler from one of them. I think his name is Dave Schultz and he weighed 195. He fought a 270 pound mountain of a man, some kickboxer, and destroyed him. It was fun to watch such a small man (comparatively) totally dominate a skilled fighter because of his great skill.
 
THAT IS NO CONTEST...ROY WILL HIT TITO A FEW TIMES BEFORE TITO GRABS HIM, THEN WHEN TITO GRABS HIM, ITS ALL OVER.

BOXERS SHOULDNT EVEN BE CONSIDERED WHEN IT COMES TO PEOPLE LIKE TITO. BOXERS HAVE ONE SKILL. TITO HAS MANY SKILLS.




KAYNE
 
Guys,

Valid points. When I thought of this fight I was thinking it would mainly be a "stand-up" fight. Since Roy is a tremendous puncher and Tito is an excellent striker.

Biteme,
I think I remember that fight. My brother and I watched and it and both bet a beer on the little guy. We won and laughed our asses off.

Oak,
I saw it and I couldn't believe it. Shamrock lost the fight before it even began. Did you see his eyes in the staredown. He already lost.

Kayne,
Interesting point.
 
The only hope Roy would have is to duck and dance and hope to land the big strike which would be possible, which he might be able to run for a round or two. But, I've seen a couple of Tito's fights and he is well conditioned enough, big enough, strong enough to take some shots, get in on Roy and either choke him out, knock him out or make him submit. Roy would be up shit creek if it was taken to the canvas.

But, with that being said, Roy Jones Jr. is my favortie boxer period with Sugar Shane Mosley a close second. Roy is showtime and a world class entertainer as well as world champion boxer. I would like to see him fight the executioner bernard hopkins (again, but it was way back in the day originally), along with a fight against trinidad to help solidify just how good he is.
 
PolishHammer1977 said:


Will, in your opinion, Roy cut weight to fight Felix? Or, will Felix, gain weight to fight Roy?
Click to expand...

I think that it would have to be somewhere in the middle to make it happen, Roy would have to drop and Felix would have to be willing to come up a bit. Probably somewhere around 170's don't you think? I can't remember either of their weights currently though, I was thinking that Trinidad's last fight or two was in the 160's and Roy was around the high 170's. That may not be right, but, I think it would be somewhere in the middle. Roy would probably outweigh Trinidad by a good 15-18 lbs, if not more, by the time they step in the ring the day after weigh in though.
 
strictly boxing and roy wins hands down but in this scenario we would see tito shoot him once and roy goes down followed by a series of ground holds and locks until roy taps out.
 
Big A,
fundamental response. How do you think Roy would fare against a couple knees into the top of his head? Would he tap out or keep fighting?

Notorious,
I think you're right. Both fighters would have to compromise to make the "fight" even. If they didn't if would give people like Larry Merchant a chance to make a parody out of it. It would be a great fight, however, I still want to see Felix fight De La Hoya. Then, the winner fights Roy in a non title bout.
 
IF THE FIGHT WAS IN A BOXING RING WITH BOXING RULES, JONES WOULD KILL TITO. NO QUESTION. HOWEVER, IF THE FIGHT WAS IN AN OCTAGON, TITO WIL KILL ROY. SHIT, IF LENNIX LEWIS STEPPED IN THE OCTAGON WITH TITO, HE WOULD GET HIS ASS BEAT. SIMPLE AS THAT. TITO IS THE BEST FIGHTER IN THE WORLD WHEN IT COMES TO THE OCTAGON. ANY BOXER, NO MATTER WHO IT IS, THAT STEPS INTO TITO'S WORLD WILL HAVE TO BRING A PEN AND PAPER TO TAKE NOTES CUZ TITO IS GOING TO SCHOOL THEM. AND VICE VERSA IF TITO STEPS INTO A BOXING RING.

THOUGH I AM EAGER TO SEE HIM AND HIS GOOD FRIEND CHUCK LIDELL GET IT ON SINCE LIDELL IS HIS NEXT MOST LIKELY OPPONENT AND ALSO HIS GOOD FRIEND.



KAYNE
 
KAYNE said:
THOUGH I AM EAGER TO SEE HIM AND HIS GOOD FRIEND CHUCK LIDELL GET IT ON SINCE LIDELL IS HIS NEXT MOST LIKELY OPPONENT AND ALSO HIS GOOD FRIEND.

Kayne,

Yes. Chuck Lidell may be the toughest man alive. He is well rounded and fearless. A guy I bounce with knows Chuck on a personal level. He said he is a very phenominal individual. He also has the hardest head imaginable. Tito does not want to fight him. Forget about the friendship, he just doesn't want to face him.

What did you think of Tito's warm up music when he entered the arena. My roomate is stuck on it. what do you think about it?
Click to expand...
 
I HEARD HIS MUSIC A COUPLE OF UFC'S AGO BUT I'M SURE IT CHANGED. I DOWNLOADED THE FIGHT WITH SHAMROCK OFF OF KAZAALITE AND IT HAD NOW SOUND. WHAT WAS HIS MUSIC THIS TIME??? I KNOW HE CAME IN WITH DURST.





KAYNE
 
I was in denial after that fight,It was true about the look in his eyes.
The fight only came to because of pride,yes Tito flipped him off but he tried to prove he was king shit but isnt anymore


Kayne I believe it was Break stuff by Limp Bizkit
 
ISNT SHAMROCK 40 YEARS OLD NOW. HE IS FAR FROM HIS PRIME OF @31-32. TITO IS IN HIS PRIME NOW.

BREAK STUFF IS A BAD ASS SONG. MAKES YOU WANT TO HURT SOMEBODY!!! OR LIFT HEAVY WEIGHTS. LOL





KAYNE
 
Kayne,
It was a computerized voice saying, "Tito's in the house". It was hot. He did use the Fred Durst music still though. You're right about the feeling when it's played. I feel so much aggression with, "give me somethin' to break".

Oak,
You are right. I was in denial too until I saw the fight over and over. I still can not belive it but I am forced to. He is a true champion and it would have been intersting to see if he would have fought Shamrock when he was all sauced up and 25 not 39. There is always an argument though. Tito is the man now, bar none.
 
POLISH
YEAH, I HEARD THAT A WHILE BACK. HE USED IT BEFORE. I THINK IT IS FRED'S VOICE MANIPULATED WITH A COMPUTER. HE HAS BEEN HANGING WITH FRED FOR A WHILE NOW.

I WAS KINDA HOPING THAT SHAMROCK WOULD WIN BUT IN MY MIND I KNEW HE WOULDNT. I WAS LOSING RESPECT FOR TITO CUZ OF THE WAY HE WAS ACTING TOWARDS THE WHOLE THING. BUT AFTER THE FIGHT, HE SAID ALL PROBLEMS WITH SHAMROCK HAVE BEEN SOLVED, "WE SOLVED THEM LIKE MEN". AFTER I HEARD THAT, I GAINED THE RESPECT BACK FOR HIM.

YOURE RIGHT THOUGH, SHAMROCK IN HIS PRIME, AND TITO NOW, THAT WOULD BE A BAD ASS FIGHT. I THINK TITO HAS LOST 2 FIGHTS. ONE OF THEM WAS TO FRANK SHAMROCK. WHO WAS THE OTHER ONE TO? I DO KNOW IT WAS A WHILE BACK WHEN TITO WASNT ALL THAT EXPERIENCED. DAMN, NOW I'M HYPED UP TO SEE LIDELL AND ORTIZ. THAT IS GOING TO BE A GOOD FIGHT. LIDELL DOESNT LOOK LIKE MUCH WHEN YOU SEE HIM BUT HE IS A BAD MOFO. ASTLEAST HE LOOKED OUT OF SHAPE WHEN I SAW HIM LAST YEAR BUT STILL BEAT THE HELL OUT OF SOMEONE!!!


KAYNE
 
Ralph Gracie has previously challenged Roy to a fight. Roy said he wasn't opposed to it, but didn't see the point. No money.

Roy vs. Tito ends the same way 90% of the time. Tito takes Roy down, pushes him to the fence and pounds his way to victory.

You have to give Roy a punchers chance.

If you really want to make it interesting, have a 30 or 45 second stand up rule.
 
ZenMachine said:
Ralph Gracie has previously challenged Roy to a fight. Roy said he wasn't opposed to it, but didn't see the point. No money.
If you really want to make it interesting, have a 30 or 45 second stand up rule.
Click to expand...

Z,
Quality points my friend. But who is to say that Roy doesn't have any kickboxing experience. You never know and I think it would be too one sided if the rounds were 30-45 second rounds. I think Roy would win for sure. He is too quick and definitely could evade the onslaught by Ortiz. Very creartive. I never knew about the Gracie challenge. Jones had to have been scared. Hiding behind $.

Kayne,
Frank is his little brother. Not exactly a little guy though. He started competing in his late twenties. Had a good fight against Bas Rutten. He beat Tito. Yes, Tito was less experienced but that's how it goes. It's all about timing. When Tito Fought Ken, he had been training with some very highly regarded professionals. Moreso than Mr. Shamrock. Lidell is a 6-2 205 man of intensity. He won't stop and he can't stop. Excellent striker and a rock head. I love that fight bc of the experience in both men. What a spectacle it will be, if it happens.
 
PolishHammer1977 said:


Lidell is a 6-2 205 man of intensity. He won't stop and he can't stop. Excellent striker and a rock head. I love that fight bc of the experience in both men. What a spectacle it will be, if it happens.
Click to expand...

Lidell had a rather lackluster performance against Murillo Bustamante, whom he had a significant weight advantage over.

Lidell has a incredible sprawl. If he keeps it standing he could beat Tito. If it goes to the ground it is going to be like all of Tito's fights.
 
Does Frank Shamrock still fight? I remember Frank v. Tito. Frank got into him pretty good if I remember right. Did it go the distance or was it stopped in the late 4th or 5th round? Frank was a good fighter, what happened to him?
 
PolishHammer1977 said:
Big A,
fundamental response. How do you think Roy would fare against a couple knees into the top of his head? Would he tap out or keep fighting?

Notorious,
I think you're right. Both fighters would have to compromise to make the "fight" even. If they didn't if would give people like Larry Merchant a chance to make a parody out of it. It would be a great fight, however, I still want to see Felix fight De La Hoya. Then, the winner fights Roy in a non title bout.
Click to expand...

yeah polish i think it would be the same result. A few knees and its over, I mean im a big guy but when i spar with my buddy who is a trained fighter in jeet kun do, hapkido (sp?), among other things when he shoots me i go down and unless you can put a guillotine on youre fucked.
 
notoriousQQ said:
Does Frank Shamrock still fight? I remember Frank v. Tito. Frank got into him pretty good if I remember right. Did it go the distance or was it stopped in the late 4th or 5th round? Frank was a good fighter, what happened to him?
Click to expand...

Frank still fights....sort of. He had a K-1 (kickboxing) style bout with someone who basically wasn't qualified to be in the ring with him. He had a fight scheduled (against Alemedia I think) but pulled out with an injury recently.

I am not sure what round Tito tapped out to Frank. 4th comes to mind. It was mostly a question of cardio. Frank as a great ability to avoid getting hurt and wearing the other fighter out.

He has been training fighters and is still in great shape, I believe.

Of note he currently fights at 185 so he is no longer in Tito's weight class.
 
Personally, I've always believed Frank Shamrock (not a blood brother of Ken) to be the better fighter of the 2. He was due to return to NHB potentially against Sakuraba in Pride but has recently broken his leg.

Tito's other loss was to Guy Mezgar in UFC 13. He was kneeing Mezgar in the head and the fight was momentarily stopped due to a brutal cut on Mezgar's head. When the fight was restarted, Tito shot in and Mezgar caught him in guillotine choke and Tiot tapped. It was only his second fight. He avenged the loss to Mezgar in UFC 19 by ref stoppage. It was after this fight that he put the "GAY MEZGAR IS MY BITCH" shirt on and flipped off Ken Shamrock and the Lion's Den that got all the bad blood started.
 
Unjust,
Nice job of crossing the t's and dottin' the I's man. Sakuraba is a tough dude. He has definitely proven himself to be a force.

BigA,
I agree. No question about it and knees are powerful.

Z,
I can't dissagree with your point, "If he keeps it standing he could beat Tito. If it goes to the ground it is going to be like all of Tito's fights". That pretty much does it.


I don't remember who Chuck Lidell fought on the night of "Vendetta". He was Brazilian. The guy was a human punching bag. I liked his performance.
 
POLISH
I KNOW ALL ABOUT FRANK. DIDNT HE KILL SOMEONE IN THE OCTAGON? HE'S A BAD MOFO. LAST I HEARD, FRANK AND KEN DIDNT GET ALONG ALL THAT WELL.



KAYNE
 
Tito vs. Roy?


Tito wins this match in less than 3 minutes, probably less than 2.

1.Take down.
2.Uncontested mount. (Roy has no experience on the ground to prevent this from happening)
3.The elbows and punches start raining.
4.Roy cannot defend himself and most likely gets cut.
5.Ref Stoppage
or
5.Roy continues to take punishment, gets cut really badly, and eventually gets KO'd.

Boxers aren't very skilled fighters. Boxing is an essential skill needed to become an effective fighter, but when not combined with other necessary skills it is deficient in SOOOOOO many ways.
 
Boxers aren't very skilled fighters. Boxing is an essential skill needed to become an effective fighter, but when not combined with other necessary skills it is deficient in SOOOOOO many ways. [/B][/QUOTE]

Good point.
 
ZenMachine said:
Ralph Gracie has previously challenged Roy to a fight. Roy said he wasn't opposed to it, but didn't see the point. No money.

Roy vs. Tito ends the same way 90% of the time. Tito takes Roy down, pushes him to the fence and pounds his way to victory.

You have to give Roy a punchers chance.

If you really want to make it interesting, have a 30 or 45 second stand up rule.
Click to expand...

I remember first reading about the Gracie brother's in Playboy Magazine way b4 UFC came out. Rorian Gracie challenged Mike Tyson to a fight for no money to prove that Tyson was not the baddest man on the planet as he proclaimed. It would have been funny to see Tyson get his ass handed to him by a little skinny dude. Rorian was around 6'1" and 155.
 
This thread reminds me of time back in school. There was this big black guy, about 6'1" 230, that had the reputation as being the baddest dude in the school and everyone was afraid of him. He got into a fight with a much smaller guy who was very strong and knew how to wrestle. The smaller guy put him in a full nelson and he couldn't move a muscle. It was a funny sight. The big guy just held his hands up as to say, what the fuck can I do. He was so embarrassed. He hated that guy after that. Was always talking bad about him, calling him a pussy and things. We all knew it was because he got his asses kicked by him and his ego couldn't deal with it.
 
biteme said:


I remember first reading about the Gracie brother's in Playboy Magazine way b4 UFC came out. Rorian Gracie challenged Mike Tyson to a fight for no money to prove that Tyson was not the baddest man on the planet as he proclaimed. It would have been funny to see Tyson get his ass handed to him by a little skinny dude. Rorian was around 6'1" and 155.
Click to expand...

IN THIS SITUATION, I DONT THINK THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE CASE. GRACIE WOULDNT BE ABLE TO GET IN ON TYSON IMO CUZ TYSON IS SO POWERFUL, THERE IS NO WAY A 150LB MAN COULD WITHSTAND HIS PUNCHES. GRACIE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN KNOCKED OUT BEFORE HE GOT IN ON TYSON AND GOT HIM TO THE GROUND. SOMETIMES, SIZE AND STRENGTH IS JUST TOO MUCH.

HOWEVER, IF ANY OF THOSE GRACIE BASTARDS GET ANYONE ON THE GROUND, ITS OVER. BUT I JUST DONT SEE THE POSSIBILITY OF A 150LB MAN WITHSTANDING ANY OF TYSONS BLOWS.



KAYNE
 
KAYNE said:


IN THIS SITUATION, I DONT THINK THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE CASE. GRACIE WOULDNT BE ABLE TO GET IN ON TYSON IMO CUZ TYSON IS SO POWERFUL, THERE IS NO WAY A 150LB MAN COULD WITHSTAND HIS PUNCHES. GRACIE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN KNOCKED OUT BEFORE HE GOT IN ON TYSON AND GOT HIM TO THE GROUND. SOMETIMES, SIZE AND STRENGTH IS JUST TOO MUCH.

HOWEVER, IF ANY OF THOSE GRACIE BASTARDS GET ANYONE ON THE GROUND, ITS OVER. BUT I JUST DONT SEE THE POSSIBILITY OF A 150LB MAN WITHSTANDING ANY OF TYSONS BLOWS.



KAYNE
Click to expand...

His brother Royce who weighs 175 fought a big strong guy named Kimo who weighed 280. He was much bigger and and stronger than Tyson, yet Royce defeated him pretty quickly. Granted, Tyson is a different fighter because of his quickness. I still think Royce would have defeated him rather easily.
 
I KNOW ABOUT ROYCE. HE IS UNREAL. HE WOULD HAVE A BETTER CHANCE THAN ANY OF THE OTHER GRACIES ON TYSON. BUT I REALLY DONT SEE A 160LB MAN GETTING PAST ONE HIT FROM TYSON.

THE GUY THAT HE FOUGHT WAS A REGULAR ULTIMATE FIGHTER. I SAW ALL OF HIS EARLY FIGHTS. TYSON IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY.

ROYCE WOULD PROBABLY BE ABLE TO GET IN ON TYSON CUZ HE IS EXCEPTIONALLY STRONG AND FAST. HE COULD PROBABLY WITHSTAND TYSON'S ORIGINAL BLOWS AND GET HIM TO THE GROUND.

ROYCE RETIRED CUZ HE KNEW HE WOULDNT BE ABLE TO BEAT SHAMROCK AGAIN. HE BEAT HIM THE FIRST TIME THEN KEN ADJUSTED HIS STYLE. HE NVR SAW ANY STYLE LIKE ROYCE'S STYLE, THATS WHY HE GOT CHOKED OUT IN UFC 2. HE CAME BACK IN 3 AND FOUGHT TO A DRAW WITH KEN. THEN HE RETIRED. SHAMROCK HAD DEFENSES FOR ALL OF GRACIE'S MOVES.



KAYNE
 
KEEP IN MIND THAT TYSON ISNT VERY TALL. HIS CENTER OF GRAVITY WILL MAKE IT EXTREMELY HARD FOR SOMEONE TO GET IN ON HIM WITHOUT GETTING HIT QUITE A FEW TIMES BY HIS SHORT, FAST, POWERFUL HANDS.

IT WOULD ONLY TAKE ONE SHOT FOR HIM TO KNOCK OUT A 150LB MAN. NO MATTER HOW TOUGH HE IS. TYSON WOULD GET HIS SHOT IN THAT SITUATION IMO.



KAYNE
 
KAYNE said:
I KNOW ABOUT ROYCE. HE IS UNREAL. HE WOULD HAVE A BETTER CHANCE THAN ANY OF THE OTHER GRACIES ON TYSON. BUT I REALLY DONT SEE A 160LB MAN GETTING PAST ONE HIT FROM TYSON.

THE GUY THAT HE FOUGHT WAS A REGULAR ULTIMATE FIGHTER. I SAW ALL OF HIS EARLY FIGHTS. TYSON IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY.

ROYCE WOULD PROBABLY BE ABLE TO GET IN ON TYSON CUZ HE IS EXCEPTIONALLY STRONG AND FAST. HE COULD PROBABLY WITHSTAND TYSON'S ORIGINAL BLOWS AND GET HIM TO THE GROUND.

ROYCE RETIRED CUZ HE KNEW HE WOULDNT BE ABLE TO BEAT SHAMROCK AGAIN. HE BEAT HIM THE FIRST TIME THEN KEN ADJUSTED HIS STYLE. HE NVR SAW ANY STYLE LIKE ROYCE'S STYLE, THATS WHY HE GOT CHOKED OUT IN UFC 2. HE CAME BACK IN 3 AND FOUGHT TO A DRAW WITH KEN. THEN HE RETIRED. SHAMROCK HAD DEFENSES FOR ALL OF GRACIE'S MOVES.



KAYNE
Click to expand...

Kayne,

Your Royce information couldn't be more wrong. Royce is not strong at all. He uses no strength, he is all technique. His takedowns are nothing to write home about either. Royce's older brother Rickson is generally accepted to be the best Jiu Jitsu player in the Gracie family. But none of them are known for their takedown ability. They mostly pull guard.

In the hypothetical Tyson fight, a ground and pound wrestler would end the fight most quickly, in my opinion. Shoot a double leg. Pound into submission.

Interesting note, Tyson is a huge fan of the Mixed Martial Arts and Tito Ortiz's Team Punishment.

Shannon Briggs, former Heavyweight Boxer has joined the Brazilian Top Team (A MMA fight team). Not sure if he is going to be a trainer or will actually fight.
 
ZenMachine said:
[B
Interesting note, Tyson is a huge fan of the Mixed Martial Arts and Tito Ortiz's Team Punishment.

Shannon Briggs, former Heavyweight Boxer has joined the Brazilian Top Team (A MMA fight team). Not sure if he is going to be a trainer or will actually fight. [/B]
Click to expand...

He might be referring to Rickson Graice. He was tough as nails. It ouw dbe very interesting to see how Briggs does in th eMMA scene. Anything is possible.

Tyson, IMO wouldn't have had a shot in hell. For all the reaosn that you guys have listed. Do you think Team Punishment would allow Tyson to join? Lets play a game of make believe?
 
ZEN

MY INFORMATION ISNT WRONG, YOU JUST INTERPRETED IT WRONG. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT STRENGTH, AS FAR AS WEIGHT GOES. I'M TALKING ABOUT WHAT HE CAN TAKE (AS BEING A BIGGER, STRONGER MAN THAN THE 150 BROTHER), AND WHEN HE IS ON THE GROUND.

YOU TALK ABOUT HIM PULLING GUARD, THATS EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS TO DO MOST OF THE TIME. THAT IS WHERE HE IS MOST EFFECTIVE. HE SUBMITTED MOST OF HIS OPPONENTS IN UFC FROM THE GUARD, INCLUDING SHAMROCK. ONCE HE HAS YOU IN A MOVE, YOU WILL NOT GET OUT. THAT IS THE STRENGHT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

I KNOW ITS ABOUT TECHNIQUE AS WELL. THEN HIS STRENGTH COMES INTO PLAY. SOME LITTLE WEAK GUY COULDNT HOLD A MOVE ON SOMEONE WHO WAS VERY STRONG.




KAYNE
 
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