Rippetoe's SS: OK to switch power clean with rows?

[sepandee]

What the title suggests.

It's just that power cleans are so technical, and while I've done them for 2-3 weeks, I'm just afraid that i might be doing them wrong. Rows, on the other hand, are easy, though annoying to do since the plates I use are smaller than the 45s, so I have to rest them on stacks of two 45s on each side so that the bar comes higher.

Thanks

 

[bblazer]

No.

Do the power cleans.

It is one of those exercises that I call a "2000 rep movement." Meaning you aren't good at it until your 2000th rep. Keep at it. Rip knows his stuff, and if he thought rows were what he wanted, he would have put them in there instead of cleans.

B-

 

[JDid23]

What the title suggests.

It's just that power cleans are so technical, and while I've done them for 2-3 weeks, I'm just afraid that i might be doing them wrong. Rows, on the other hand, are easy, though annoying to do since the plates I use are smaller than the 45s, so I have to rest them on stacks of two 45s on each side so that the bar comes higher.

Thanks

yeah man you're fine substituting rows for cleans. I did the same thing and Rippetoe even writes that it's fine to make that switch from 5x3 cleans to 3x5 rows.

How are rows annoying with less than 45s? You don't have to touch the ground on each rep although some people do recommend it.

I'd reccomend that you start a log on here. I have one and so do some other people. Really helps you stay focused and get good feedback from people who are a lot more experienced than you are. The help that i've gotten here on EF is really consistently great, and i've also seen nice gains

good luck bro!

 

[NJL52]

Technically it is okay, but you are better off learning cleans. Get a camera, record yourself and post it here. That's what this forum is for, to help you with your shortcomings in your goal for fitness.

 

[sepandee]

Bah, I guess I knew the answer myself

Thanks, guys. but I should've posted a few more questions before asking that one.

First of all, how does this forum compare to bodybuilding.com? The problem i saw over there was that a lot of idiots with little to no experience in lifting were answering a lot of the questions, typing away as if they knew what the hell they're talking about. Same problem here?

Second, let me give a background of myself. 5ft7in, 149lb, probably 17% bodyfat, and I'm a beginner (though I know how to do the squat, deadlift, bench press, standing press, and rows with relatively good form). I've done the SS program twice before, each time for around 2 months, before giving up. And I've given it up both times because of studies, traveling, work, but above all, a lack of motivation. The idea of doing the same thing over and over 3 times a week, esp. squatting 3 times a week, just gets annoying for a newb. I also have very weak shoulders and a rotator cuff problem, and my standing presses were unimpressive and, after a few weeks, would stall or cause some discomfort.

So I started hitting the gym again last month. At first I did my own thing: 3 sets of 8, 3 days of the week, working on chest and tri, back and bi, legs and shoulders, with a mix of compound (deadlift, squats, bench press) and isolation (weighted bench dips, bicep curls, seated cable rows, calf press, etc.) exercises.

Then I came across this workout that has 5 compound exercises + calf raises + bicep curls that you do 3 times a week (all of them at each workout), with the first day of the week lifting the heaviest, the second day 10% less in weight, and the third day 20% less. First week everything is done 4 sets of 8 reps (2 warmup sets, 2 working sets), second week 4 sets of 9 reps, third week 4 sets of 10 reps, etc., until 12 reps.

Then I read up on HST (hypertrophy-specific training) and gave some serious thought into doing that.

But now I'm thinking I'll start with Rippetoe's 3x5 again, because I do play a lot of basketball and strength is more important to me than mass. Plus, when I started SS I gained 8lb the first time in 2 months (from 145lb to 153), and 5lb the second time (152lb to 157lb). I did gain some love handles for the first time in my life though, which I wasn't happy about and have not been able to get rid of ever since (we're talking 3 years now). BUt I'm guessing that has more to do with my diet.

Anyways, what do you guys think? Which program sounds right for me?

Thanks. Sorry for the long post.

 

[JDid23]

Bah, I guess I knew the answer myself

Thanks, guys. but I should've posted a few more questions before asking that one.

First of all, how does this forum compare to bodybuilding.com? The problem i saw over there was that a lot of idiots with little to no experience in lifting were answering a lot of the questions, typing away as if they knew what the hell they're talking about. Same problem here?

Second, let me give a background of myself. 5ft7in, 149lb, probably 17% bodyfat, and I'm a beginner (though I know how to do the squat, deadlift, bench press, standing press, and rows with relatively good form). I've done the SS program twice before, each time for around 2 months, before giving up. And I've given it up both times because of studies, traveling, work, but above all, a lack of motivation. The idea of doing the same thing over and over 3 times a week, esp. squatting 3 times a week, just gets annoying for a newb. I also have very weak shoulders and a rotator cuff problem, and my standing presses were unimpressive and, after a few weeks, would stall or cause some discomfort.

So I started hitting the gym again last month. At first I did my own thing: 3 sets of 8, 3 days of the week, working on chest and tri, back and bi, legs and shoulders, with a mix of compound (deadlift, squats, bench press) and isolation (weighted bench dips, bicep curls, seated cable rows, calf press, etc.) exercises.

Then I came across this workout that has 5 compound exercises + calf raises + bicep curls that you do 3 times a week (all of them at each workout), with the first day of the week lifting the heaviest, the second day 10% less in weight, and the third day 20% less. First week everything is done 4 sets of 8 reps (2 warmup sets, 2 working sets), second week 4 sets of 9 reps, third week 4 sets of 10 reps, etc., until 12 reps.

Then I read up on HST (hypertrophy-specific training) and gave some serious thought into doing that.

But now I'm thinking I'll start with Rippetoe's 3x5 again, because I do play a lot of basketball and strength is more important to me than mass. Plus, when I started SS I gained 8lb the first time in 2 months (from 145lb to 153), and 5lb the second time (152lb to 157lb). I did gain some love handles for the first time in my life though, which I wasn't happy about and have not been able to get rid of ever since (we're talking 3 years now). BUt I'm guessing that has more to do with my diet.

Anyways, what do you guys think? Which program sounds right for me?

Thanks. Sorry for the long post.

i've seen BB.com.... for every good piece of information you'll read, there is probably 20 things that you'll read that are absolute horse shit

Are you training specifically for basketball? If you are, maybe do HIIT on your off days so it would be

M: Rippetoes
T: HIIT
W: Rippetoes
T: HIIT
F: Rippetoes
weekend off if you'd like, or you can run

 

[bblazer]

Just wondering if you actually own a copy of Starting Strength. If not, please do yourself a favor - buy it, and read it from cover to cover, twice. While you are at it, get a copy of Strength Training Anatomy. This one will really help make sense of all the exercises out there in nice big color drawings of the body and the muscles involved in each movement.

B-

 

[sepandee]

i've seen BB.com.... for every good piece of information you'll read, there is probably 20 things that you'll read that are absolute horse shit

Are you training specifically for basketball? If you are, maybe do HIIT on your off days so it would be

M: Rippetoes
T: HIIT
W: Rippetoes
T: HIIT
F: Rippetoes
weekend off if you'd like, or you can run

That's calling for disaster to happen. Cardio 2 days a week while squatting heavy 3 times a week? This is a big no no. I might be a beginner in lifting, but I sort of know what I'm doing, esp. when it comes to Starting Strength.

Yes, I own the book. And the DVD. Don't have the anatomy book though.

No, I'm not training for basketball. But I do play basketball, and I could use the extra strength to push people around, jump higher, etc.

 

[Tblock1]

That's calling for disaster to happen. Cardio 2 days a week while squatting heavy 3 times a week? This is a big no no. I might be a beginner in lifting, but I sort of know what I'm doing, esp. when it comes to Starting Strength.

Yes, I own the book. And the DVD. Don't have the anatomy book though.

No, I'm not training for basketball. But I do play basketball, and I could use the extra strength to push people around, jump higher, etc.

I don't think it's such a "big no no." I did this for quite a while and was fine.... Just monitor your progress.

 

[sepandee]

I don't think it's such a "big no no." I did this for quite a while and was fine.... Just monitor your progress.

Well, I know for a fact that Ripp doesn't think this is a good idea. ANd it makes sense. Progress will be slow, fatigue will hit early, and Jeeeh-zuz forbidden, you might get hit with an injury.

 

[ExtraMile]

That's calling for disaster to happen. Cardio 2 days a week while squatting heavy 3 times a week? This is a big no no. I might be a beginner in lifting, but I sort of know what I'm doing

Im gonna say this plain and simple

dont be a pussy

besides if your training for a sport you need some sort of conditioning work and skill work on your off days, otherwise how will u get better at the sport?

 

[moya]

do the cleans... fuck rows...

 

[JDid23]

That's calling for disaster to happen. Cardio 2 days a week while squatting heavy 3 times a week? This is a big no no. I might be a beginner in lifting, but I sort of know what I'm doing, esp. when it comes to Starting Strength.

Yes, I own the book. And the DVD. Don't have the anatomy book though.

No, I'm not training for basketball. But I do play basketball, and I could use the extra strength to push people around, jump higher, etc.

i was saying if you're training for basketball and want to incorporate cardio, this would be a good idea.

A friend of mine did it before soccer season and said he loved it.

 

[sepandee]

Well, I'm just saying what Ripp said. From what I remember, he said excessive cardio can slow/hinder progress. Do we know better than Ripp?

I guess if I was to incorporate cardio into the program, I would do it on the first day of my two-day off. But then, I play basketball twice a week.

 

[Tblock1]

Well, I'm just saying what Ripp said. From what I remember, he said excessive cardio can slow/hinder progress. Do we know better than Ripp?

I guess if I was to incorporate cardio into the program, I would do it on the first day of my two-day off. But then, I play basketball twice a week.

Dude....ripp would probably say drink your milk and you'll be fine. He'd probably call you a pussy too. Don't let one man shape your opinions on everything, he isn't God you know( maybe close). All I know is that I'm sure I have better run times than ripp...

 

[JDid23]

Well, I'm just saying what Ripp said. From what I remember, he said excessive cardio can slow/hinder progress. Do we know better than Ripp?

I guess if I was to incorporate cardio into the program, I would do it on the first day of my two-day off. But then, I play basketball twice a week.

what are your goals? Are you training specifically for basketball or to get stronger? I don't know as much as most people on here, but i am just going by what i've heard and seen from some of my friends

 

[sepandee]

what are your goals? Are you training specifically for basketball or to get stronger? I don't know as much as most people on here, but i am just going by what i've heard and seen from some of my friends

No I'm training for multiple things. I want to become stronger so I can play more intensively in basketball (and jump higher). I also want to add mass, and lower my bodyfat % (it's at 18% right now, ideally I would have it at 12-14). I also want to become more flexible in my hip flexors and hamstrings (I suck).

So, a lot of goals.

 

[JDid23]

No I'm training for multiple things. I want to become stronger so I can play more intensively in basketball (and jump higher). I also want to add mass, and lower my bodyfat % (it's at 18% right now, ideally I would have it at 12-14). I also want to become more flexible in my hip flexors and hamstrings (I suck).

So, a lot of goals.

If you want to jump higher, you should try some plyometrics, and definitely keep power cleans... How is your diet? That's going to be the key component in how much weight you lose. Also, try to incorporate your hip flexors in squats. Mine have really gotten more flexible from going ATG

 

[sepandee]

If you want to jump higher, you should try some plyometrics, and definitely keep power cleans... How is your diet? That's going to be the key component in how much weight you lose. Also, try to incorporate your hip flexors in squats. Mine have really gotten more flexible from going ATG

Well, from my understanding, ATG is not what Rippetoe advices. In fact, the only way ATG can be achieved for almost everyone (except for the freakishly flexible people) is by relaxing the hamstrings, which is not proper squat form.

But, I'm a newb, so don't take me seriously

When you say incorporate your hip flexors in squats, what do you mean exactly?

 

[ExtraMile]

if your gonna do everthing exactly as rippetoe says then why are u asking questions about changing it just do everything from the book, otherwise stop relating everything to him! fuck

you either take advice from people on here or do what the book says just make up your mind and get on with it!

 

[sepandee]

if your gonna do everthing exactly as rippetoe says then why are u asking questions about changing it just do everything from the book, otherwise stop relating everything to him! fuck

you either take advice from people on here or do what the book says just make up your mind and get on with it!

The two aren't mutually exclusive, you know. The advice can be outside the fundamentals of the book. If an advice here goes against what is taught in the book (e.g. don't to ATG because that just means you're relaxing your muscles) then I'll go with the book. If the advice compliments what is taught in the book, then I'll gladly take it.

And just so I'm on the same page as you are, let me say: fuck!

 

[ExtraMile]

The two aren't mutually exclusive, you know. The advice can be outside the fundamentals of the book. If an advice here goes against what is taught in the book (e.g. don't to ATG because that just means you're relaxing your muscles) then I'll go with the book. If the advice compliments what is taught in the book, then I'll gladly take it.

And just so I'm on the same page as you are, let me say: fuck!

it just seemed like u were wanting to do differant as to what Rip. said then most things people suggested you said according to him would be a bad idea

squatting atg rocks btw

 

[JDid23]

what are your lifts at right now? If you're training competitively for basketball, HIIT would definitely benefit you man. How is your diet?

 

[Tblock1]

The two aren't mutually exclusive, you know. The advice can be outside the fundamentals of the book. If an advice here goes against what is taught in the book (e.g. don't to ATG because that just means you're relaxing your muscles) then I'll go with the book. If the advice compliments what is taught in the book, then I'll gladly take it.

And just so I'm on the same page as you are, let me say: fuck!

Ok this makes no sense. Are you just looking for us to say yes ripp is rgith, you are right, the book is right, follow it like you are following god. Cause it sounds like you are just asking us to reaffirm the book for you or what?

 

[moya]

dammit just do the cleans... ive done them on and off for 5 years and just now as my form is getting bettet they are doing miracles... increased bench (from the jerks), and a wicked looking back... rows never did shit for me...

 

[sepandee]

Ok this makes no sense. Are you just looking for us to say yes ripp is rgith, you are right, the book is right, follow it like you are following god. Cause it sounds like you are just asking us to reaffirm the book for you or what?

not really. The original question asked whether I can sub cleans with rows, followed by whether I should do HST, SS, or something else. I only said that Ripp advises against doing heavy cardio (e.g. HIIT 2-3 times a week) for obvious reasons, and that he also advises against ATG squats since no one is flexible enough to do ATG without completely relaxing their quads and hamstrings.

dammit just do the cleans... ive done them on and off for 5 years and just now as my form is getting bettet they are doing miracles... increased bench (from the jerks), and a wicked looking back... rows never did shit for me...

Yeah I plan on doing the cleans.

what are your lifts at right now? If you're training competitively for basketball, HIIT would definitely benefit you man. How is your diet?

Diet is... I guess OK. My BMR is around 1800 kcalories, and on days that I workout I eat 2800-3000kcalories, which is roughly 500 kcalories above my maintenance. On non-workout days I at maintenance. No specific diet. I just make sure I eat a complete meal, e.g. vegetables, a source of protein, and a simple carb like potato or rice or bread. Fruits are in too, of course.

As for lifts, I'm just a newbie, so nothing impressive I used to do squats at 235lb x 5/5/5, but now I'm starting again at 135lb x 5/5/5. Bench was around 145lb x 5/5/5 last year. Now, I'm back to 105lb x 5/5/5 (also being cautious due to my injured shoulder). Overhead press... never mind that. I suck at it, most probably because of my shoulder. And deadlift... used to do 265lb x 5. I'm guessing I can do at least 205lb x 5 if my grip allows it, but I might also screw my back