Pros and their purpoted drug use

[Grizzly]

Pros and their purported drug use

He's a question for you people. It's really been bugging me. In one sentence somebody will claim that the pros use huge amounts of drugs and that's why they look like they do. Yet, in the next sentence they claim it's the pros genetics that do the trick. Now, my question is this: Isn't it quite possible that the pros don't use that many drugs because of their genetics? Here's my theory: For a "normal" guy he must use 12 kits of GH and 5 grams of test and 300mgs/day of Anadrol a week to come anywhere near a pro. Now, the pros, admittedly, have superior growth genetics. Then, why is it assumed that they use huge amounts? Couldn't they grow very well with medium amounts of drugs due to their genetic pre-dispositions? Why is it that everyone is so quick to attribute their success to drugs?

 

[Exodus]

here i will explain it for you.......... genetics is a word that people use instead of drugs.

you see

they use a lot of drugs is the same as

they have GREAT genetics,.


ha ha

i dont belive what anybody says unless they are a pro...... i suggest you do the same....... if you have never talked to a pro about drug use....... then do as i do....... assume that they are natural and train hard to beat them

X

 

[TheGame2001]

..

they ran a story in ironman last year with a top pro that would talk if they agreed not to use his name. he talked of the amazing amounts of roids they use and how many will be dying soon because of it. he agreed to talk because he wanted the madness to be so freaky big to be stopped somehow. oh yeah, they use tons and tons of roids. anyone that says its their genetics, well thats laughable. Look at someone that wins a top notch natural show that polygraphs the contestants, thats good genetics. nobody has genetics to be as big as coleman or cutler without tons of gear.

 

[The_Mexican]

Re: ..

they ran a story in ironman last year with a top pro that would talk if they agreed not to use his name. he talked of the amazing amounts of roids they use and how many will be dying soon because of it. he agreed to talk because he wanted the madness to be so freaky big to be stopped somehow. oh yeah, they use tons and tons of roids. anyone that says its their genetics, well thats laughable. Look at someone that wins a top notch natural show that polygraphs the contestants, thats good genetics. nobody has genetics to be as big as coleman or cutler without tons of gear.

Trust this guy, he is fuken huge!! Did you see his back pic? How did you ever get a back like that dude? Please post up your back routine, a lot of us would appreciate it!!

 

[Grizzly]

Re: ..

they ran a story in ironman last year with a top pro that would talk if they agreed not to use his name. he talked of the amazing amounts of roids they use and how many will be dying soon because of it. he agreed to talk because he wanted the madness to be so freaky big to be stopped somehow. oh yeah, they use tons and tons of roids. anyone that says its their genetics, well thats laughable. Look at someone that wins a top notch natural show that polygraphs the contestants, thats good genetics. nobody has genetics to be as big as coleman or cutler without tons of gear.

See, now I can't believe that. Number one, assuming that they do use tons of drugs, then why would they admit it? How many times have you heard "Oh, I'd be as big as so and so if used steroids too."? I don't think anyone, especially a pro, wants to have his accomplishments diminished in people's eyes by "admitting" to using shitloads of gear. Secondly, if this guy is a top pro, then why would he want the "madness to be so freaky big" to be stopped? He obviously wants to be freaky big if he's a top pro. Thirdly, even the "natural" guys juice. They just know how to clean out in time. Polygraphs are beatable. I've seen several threads on here from guys who were going to compete in tested shows who wanted to know how to beat the testing. Think of Skip LaCour. There's not a chance in hell that he's natural. Oh yeah, I will agree with you that no one can be as big as Coleman with out gear, but do you really thing that it has to be "tons of gear?"

Also, my friend claims to have heard from someone who knows Flex Wheeler that he was spending 70k a year on drugs. That's freaking impossible! I know GH is expensive and all, but 70k! There's only a handful of pros who make enough money to afford that kind of habit and even that would probably cut into their food money and housing and whatnot. Personally, I think claiming the pros use ungodly amounts is somewhat of a copout for people who don't have the ability.

 

[TheGame2001]

...

Bro the top pros all have sponsors that cover their gear. I don't believe 70k, well yeah I guess I almost could. And the pro that admitted to it in ironman would not let his name be used.

You really think those guys get that big on very little juice?

I know guys in our gym that stack 4,5,6 drugs at a time, come off 8 weeks, right back on and they never ever attain the size of those guys. So really really think about it.......

One of the shows I was in this past summer Craig Titus guest posed, he was at our hotel and came to our room after the show for drinks, we had huge party. He talked all about the crap he took, told us how he took insulin and how to use it(dangerous crap), not expensive but dangerous. Talked of huge amounts of GH, amazing what all he took.


Now on my back basically i've always deadlifted.
tbar rows
smith machine rows
close grip pulldowns

next back workout i'll use mainly cable moves and really squeeze and also do heavy deadlifts that day.

the back workout with t-bar rows I do deadlifts for reps.

 

[Grizzly]

My reason for this thread

Here's why I ask this question. Well, this and I don't like to see the pros constantly bashed as completely reliant on drugs. That's just an excuse.

Ok, I guess you could say that I have "great genetics." I've yet to juice, something that will be remedied in a few weeks(hopefully. boo on customs!) and I have 19" arms. Now, a typical first cycle can be expected to yield 20-30lbs. I've read somewhere that 10lbs of bodyweight is approximately equal to 1" on your arms, give or take. Now, in theory, at the end of my first cycle I will be damn near Arnold sized. To go from Arnold sized to the size of, say, Gunter Shlierkamp shouldn't take too much more. Therefore, theoretically, I could attain pro size and status with minimal amounts of drugs. Am I wrong? Is it just wishful thinking or what?

And, while I'm at it, would someone explain to me why you need to take a certain amount of juice to not shrink? I understand that it blocks cortisol and when you come off the cortisol goes crazy and shrinks your shit up, but why do some folks claim to need a gram of test per week at all times just to maintain size? I don't get that part.

 

[TheGame2001]

natural

I've always trained natural brother. I'd hate to find out in 10 years that my kidneys are failing or some crap like that. Don't be suprised to hear soon that flex wheeler retired because of medical problems.

Guess it depends on what you want. More to life that bodybuilding for me, married with beautiful wife and stepchild. Bigger picture for me. But we all choose our paths. I'm not a roid expert but I see guys in our gym juice their butt off and they are not approaching gunter or any other pro....

Good luck in your decision. I harbor no ill will towards someone that does juice, heck my workout partner juices.

 

[Grizzly]

Re: ...

Bro the top pros all have sponsors that cover their gear. I don't believe 70k, well yeah I guess I almost could. And the pro that admitted to it in ironman would not let his name be used.

You really think those guys get that big on very little juice?

I know guys in our gym that stack 4,5,6 drugs at a time, come off 8 weeks, right back on and they never ever attain the size of those guys. So really really think about it.......

Yeah, I don't believe the 70k either. I could see it being semi-possible just because of the GH, but with special chinese friends it seems almost impossible to use that much.

I want one of those sponsors! Of course, that's where I still see a problem. The difference between a dude who wins the nationals and a top ranking pro isn't that big. I don't know, maybe you'd disagree, but I don't see too much of a difference. Now, those high-ranking NPC fellows don't have sponsors(not most of them anyway) and yet they still have to be able to afford all of that crap. How can they do that if it's such an astronomical number? Let's face it, most, if not all, bodybuilders are not CEO of Dow Chemical. You know? Where do these other guys get the money?

Now, here's where I use that horrid word "genetics." I only call it horrid because I think a lot of people use it as a cop out. Anyway, I have to admit that it does play a certain roll. Now, perhaps these juice freaks in your gym just don't have the genetics to be pro sized, no matter how much juice they take. Maybe try an experiment. Let them pay for whatever cycle they are going to do and then you or someone else in the gym or a scientist or something foot the bill for 4,5 or 6 more kinds of drugs. Get them on what one would assume a pro's cycle looks like and then see if they become pro-sized. If it's just the drugs then those fellows would become pros right?

 

[Grizzly]

Re: natural

I've always trained natural brother. I'd hate to find out in 10 years that my kidneys are failing or some crap like that. Don't be suprised to hear soon that flex wheeler retired because of medical problems.

Actually, I have heard that Flex retired because of medical problems. I will admit that it can have deleterious effects on your health, but look at the pros of yesteryear. Are any of them dead or dying of this or that kidney/liver/heart/blah blah blah disease? No. Arnold, Lou, Franco they're all still kicking. Hell, how about Vince Taylor and Robby Robinson. They've been juicing for the last 25 years and they're not dead. I think some people just get unlucky.

 

[Milford Jenings]

A good friend of mine is a card carrying pro. He will freely admit to you that they use drugs for every aspect of the sport. Including speed to help melt off the fat before a contest. In the same setting he will tell you about the failed kidneys, stone hard liver and bad stomach he has from all of this. HE has confirmed that it is a 60K to 70K a year sport...and that's not including the rent. It's a trade off. Get real big and destroy the body from the inside out, or settle for legal and legit and build the whole.

For me...it's keep it natural and legal. That and I'm really attached to my liver.

MJ

 

[diamonddiceclay]

every pro bb'er is on large amounts of gear-it's a fact

 

[SSAlexSS]

Re: Pros and their purported drug use

He's a question for you people. It's really been bugging me. In one sentence somebody will claim that the pros use huge amounts of drugs and that's why they look like they do. Yet, in the next sentence they claim it's the pros genetics that do the trick. Now, my question is this: Isn't it quite possible that the pros don't use that many drugs because of their genetics? Here's my theory: For a "normal" guy he must use 12 kits of GH and 5 grams of test and 300mgs/day of Anadrol a week to come anywhere near a pro. Now, the pros, admittedly, have superior growth genetics. Then, why is it assumed that they use huge amounts? Couldn't they grow very well with medium amounts of drugs due to their genetic pre-dispositions? Why is it that everyone is so quick to attribute their success to drugs?

Here is the answer. YES its genetics. Genetics is more important than drugs. PROs respond to drugs much better than mere mortals. 5 g of test will affect them differently than it will you.

"Normal guy" even using 50000 anadrols per day would not look like a pro.

Elite pros don't take more drugs than your average Joe (except for GH and insulin) yet they look better, dont they?

Genetics!!!!!

The people have perputrated the myth "You train like a pro, eat like one, take this supplements and finally steroids... And you will look like a pro" . .. BULLCRAP!

 

[Ingram]

Re: natural

I've always trained natural brother.

Wow, when I saw your pics I definitely thought you ‘d done many cycles. Your back is absolutely sick for someone who’s on the sauce, let alone all natural. Great work bro!

 

[SSAlexSS]

Re: My reason for this thread

Here's why I ask this question. Well, this and I don't like to see the pros constantly bashed as completely reliant on drugs. That's just an excuse.

Ok, I guess you could say that I have "great genetics." I've yet to juice, something that will be remedied in a few weeks(hopefully. boo on customs!) and I have 19" arms. Now, a typical first cycle can be expected to yield 20-30lbs. I've read somewhere that 10lbs of bodyweight is approximately equal to 1" on your arms, give or take. Now, in theory, at the end of my first cycle I will be damn near Arnold sized. To go from Arnold sized to the size of, say, Gunter Shlierkamp shouldn't take too much more. Therefore, theoretically, I could attain pro size and status with minimal amounts of drugs. Am I wrong? Is it just wishful thinking or what?

And, while I'm at it, would someone explain to me why you need to take a certain amount of juice to not shrink? I understand that it blocks cortisol and when you come off the cortisol goes crazy and shrinks your shit up, but why do some folks claim to need a gram of test per week at all times just to maintain size? I don't get that part.

To go from Arnolds (230 pounds of steroid muscle) to gunters 299 pounds of muscle... YOU WOULD NEED A LOT! gH, insulin and anadrol..... There is HUGE difference between arnold and Gunther.... Comparing arnold to gunther is like comparing

little 9 year old girl to a bear!!! YOU CAN'T achieve a pro status with little drugs. Noone is so geneticly blessed (other than Flex Wheeler... and even he couldnt handle it).

1 gram per week to maintain size??? Pahh!! 2-6 is more likely....
Guys like Dennis James, Markus use atleast 5 or so....

ddggbbb.................

 

[Grizzly]

Re: Re: My reason for this thread

To go from Arnolds (230 pounds of steroid muscle) to gunters 299 pounds of muscle... YOU WOULD NEED A LOT! gH, insulin and anadrol..... There is HUGE difference between arnold and Gunther.... Comparing arnold to gunther is like comparing

little 9 year old girl to a bear!!! YOU CAN'T achieve a pro status with little drugs. Noone is so geneticly blessed (other than Flex Wheeler... and even he couldnt handle it).

1 gram per week to maintain size??? Pahh!! 2-6 is more likely....
Guys like Dennis James, Markus use atleast 5 or so....

ddggbbb.................

Well, I'll just keep hoping that I can pull it off with not too much drug use. I like to dream big.

But, will you explain to me why they need to take so much to avoid shrinking? I don't get it. What makes them need a maintenance dose?

 

[TheGame2001]

..

Think my back proves deadlifts do work.....

about top npc guy, I think if you stood a top npc guy next to coleman or cutler you would be shocked at the difference.....

just my opinoin...

 

[gymtime]

Just my .02 here, but it seems to me that the human tree stumps you see on any professional bodybuilding stage are the result of genetics AND high-volume steroid use. One without the other will not get anyone that kind of size.

 

[SSAlexSS]

Re: Re: Re: My reason for this thread

Well, I'll just keep hoping that I can pull it off with not too much drug use. I like to dream big.

But, will you explain to me why they need to take so much to avoid shrinking? I don't get it. What makes them need a maintenance dose?

Ok... Lets start with the basics.
FIRST CYCLE - Great GAINS....
Second cycle - Lesser gains....
10th (or so) - Tiny gains even though u use 10x (not a typo) of steroids

...(insert random large number)..... 20x roids JUST to maintain the size. I am not even talking about gaining....


Fist 20 or so pounds of steroid muscle is easy to get. THEN your body starts getting used to steroids, so you need to more and more steroids....

It is like E=MC2 equation. It is easy to go at slow speeds, but when you arrive near the light speed- then you need almost inifinite amount of energy to continue....


Eventually you WOULD need like 5 grams of test, constant insulin/gH injections to gain EXTRA 5 pounds of muscle... Scary, huh?

And to maintain you would need A LOT, since you are WAYYY above what your body either capable off or it desires....

Brutal size needs brutal amount of gear. YOU MAY NEED up to 6 grams of strong testerone to look like a good pro bodybuilder, and remember - your natural test levels fall so you can't get off roids and keep all your gains... (there are ways to do that, but not for competition).

Remember, muscle growth / steroid use IS NOT linear relationship!

After basic gains you REALLY need to inject and swallow for even slightest change!


Think about flex wheeler. He had some SERIOUS health probs off steroids. He has the best genetics ever and even he was a majjor roider. He couldnt compete in 2001 Mr O naturally without roids... ANd guess what, he couldnt get 215 pound phisique without roids! His genetics are the best, but only with lots of roids....

You are in a wrong time buddy! If these were the 70s, sure you could go with little amount of roids.... and get a Frankie Zane kind of phisique. But today the standarts are much higher! SO is the drug use.... Remember Arnie used to take d-bol in huge quantities!!!! And he was so light! While his cycles weren't....

 

[DanielBishop]

I don't know much about pros or steroids, but I know in (I think) 1999 a guy called Kiyoshi Moody won the World Natural Championships or something like that.... in which all competitors have to pass a polygraph test beforehand, which proves that they have NEVER taken any steroids in their life.

I thought he looked pretty good, but he wasn't very big.

 

[SSAlexSS]

I don't know much about pros or steroids, but I know in (I think) 1999 a guy called Kiyoshi Moody won the World Natural Championships or something like that.... in which all competitors have to pass a polygraph test beforehand, which proves that they have NEVER taken any steroids in their life.

I thought he looked pretty good, but he wasn't very big.

Genetics and correct training.... BUT.... many so called naturals are just juiced to the gills guys who just manage to beat the tests (simple really)... Ofcourse they do not take steroids in qualities of the pro bodybuilders!!!

 

[fhg43]

Genetics=superior athletes

Drugs=improved athletic performance

Drugs+genetics= super athletes that pullout great performances.

I hate to burst your bubble, but performance enhancing drugs are a part of every single sport. Anytime a serious athlete can gain asignificant advantage from a foreign substance and not get caught, that athlete will take substance. Thats part of the game. Losing sucks. Professional athletes definitely take drugs-they get paid to win! If you are only as good as your last competition-and u lost- then you'll do whatever to get back to winning. And often winning depends on how much money you get in your next contract or paycheck!

FHG

 

[Grizzly]

Re: Re: Re: Re: My reason for this thread

Ok... Lets start with the basics.
FIRST CYCLE - Great GAINS....
Second cycle - Lesser gains....
10th (or so) - Tiny gains even though u use 10x (not a typo) of steroids

...(insert random large number)..... 20x roids JUST to maintain the size. I am not even talking about gaining....


Fist 20 or so pounds of steroid muscle is easy to get. THEN your body starts getting used to steroids, so you need to more and more steroids....

It is like E=MC2 equation. It is easy to go at slow speeds, but when you arrive near the light speed- then you need almost inifinite amount of energy to continue....


Eventually you WOULD need like 5 grams of test, constant insulin/gH injections to gain EXTRA 5 pounds of muscle... Scary, huh?

And to maintain you would need A LOT, since you are WAYYY above what your body either capable off or it desires....

Brutal size needs brutal amount of gear. YOU MAY NEED up to 6 grams of strong testerone to look like a good pro bodybuilder, and remember - your natural test levels fall so you can't get off roids and keep all your gains... (there are ways to do that, but not for competition).

Remember, muscle growth / steroid use IS NOT linear relationship!

After basic gains you REALLY need to inject and swallow for even slightest change!


Think about flex wheeler. He had some SERIOUS health probs off steroids. He has the best genetics ever and even he was a majjor roider. He couldnt compete in 2001 Mr O naturally without roids... ANd guess what, he couldnt get 215 pound phisique without roids! His genetics are the best, but only with lots of roids....

You are in a wrong time buddy! If these were the 70s, sure you could go with little amount of roids.... and get a Frankie Zane kind of phisique. But today the standarts are much higher! SO is the drug use.... Remember Arnie used to take d-bol in huge quantities!!!! And he was so light! While his cycles weren't....

Thanks. I kind of knew that part, more or less, but would you happen to know why exactly, like the chemical processes or whatever, that is? I kind of understand receptor site downgrading and all, but is there more to it? I liked the E=MC2 analogy. Good one.

Now, what I would be really interested in is any info you would have regarding exactly what Arnie's cycles looked like. Got any? I think when I go home for Christmas break I'll ask the biggest guy I know about this here stuff. I'd be interested in knowing exactly what he does. If any of you are interested I'll tell you. I mean, he's a seriously HUGE dude. I find this topic interesting, as you all might be able to tell.

 

[Blood&Iron]

I've read a number of things regarding drug use among people like Mentzer and Arnold. There are some pretty widely varying reports of Schwarzenegger's use, but I recall reading that he admitted openly what his cycles were in Muscle Builder or some other magazine. I think he recommend 4 tabs of D-bol for a big-guy, which would be him, and that'd put him at 20mg of D-bol a day. Not much. Could be wrong though.

 

[DanielBishop]

SSAlexSS....

Drug tests AND polygraph tests.

 

[Grizzly]

SSAlexSS....

Drug tests AND polygraph tests.

Bro, drug tests AND polygraph tests are easy to pass. The drug tests simply require using fast acting/short lived drugs. As for the polys, there's many, many ways to pass them. Look it up with the search function. There's the "tack in the shoe" method. There's the "use a bunch of coke" method. There's the "study" method. Actually, I don't know if the "study" method really works, but I saw it in a movie. Christopher Reeves was supposedly paralyzed(isn't that prophetic) and then shot his wife, who was cheating on him. Well, he "studied" for the poly by first tape recording all of the possible questions that would be asked of him. Then he played it back and practiced answering them until he became very proficient at lying, and, conceivably, actually believed his lies. Seems like a valid method to me.

Blood&Iron- Thank you! There's so many stories about Arnold and the other pros of the day eating "handfulls of d-bol at a time" and I knew that it must have been false. They might not have had the same knowledge about drugs as we do today, but they weren't stupid and I'm sure they could have figured out that "handfulls" would not be very good to eat. Personally, I think that Arnold just had very good genetics and his drug usage was minimal. Ok, maybe not minimal, but not nearly as much as people claim he used. The people who claim that he used tons and tons of roids are just jealous of his development. He got the way he did because of an iron-will to succeed and training until he passed out or puked, whichever came first. Like he said in "Pumping Iron," "I have no fear of fainting in the gym. I've fainted many times.,... If you can't pass the pain period, then you will never be a champion." Ok, so it wasn't a direct quotation, but it was pretty fucking close.

 

[Blood&Iron]

Like he said in "Pumping Iron," "I have no fear of fainting in the gym. I've fainted many times.,... If you can't pass the pain period, then you will never be a champion." Ok, so it wasn't a direct quotation, but it was pretty fucking close.

My favorite line is "Maybe I give him the wrong advices." Cracks me up every time.

 

[BigSteve]

Daniel Bishop: all competitors have to pass a polygraph test beforehand, which proves that they have NEVER taken any steroids in their life.

The fact that someone has "passed" a polygraph "test" is proof of nothing. Polygraph “tests” have never been shown to determine truth from deception with better than chance results in a peer-reviewed scientific study conducted under field conditions.

Furthermore, anyone (including the biggest juicehead) can defeat a polygraph "test" with minimal training. To learn how this is done in full detail, visit http://www.antipolygraph.org All of the information is available on this site at absolutely no cost.

You may be correct when you suggest that Moody is natural. On the other hand, you may be wrong. Nonetheless, the fact that he "passed" a pseudoscientific polygraph "test" is evidence of nothing. Polygraphs were outlawed in the US private sector with the 1988 Employee Polygraph Protection Act after major scientific groups including the American Medical Association argued that they were unreliable. The extreme unreliability of lie detectors is also why virtually no major sport (certainly not in the US) uses polygraphs for drug testing. And we all know that drug use is rampant in all sports, not just bodybuilding.

Bodybuilding shows and fishing contests are the only competitions where lie detection is used consistently. In a sport that is fighting so hard for legitimacy, promoters should reconsider their actions. Lie detector "tests" are easily beaten, tend to falsely accuse many truthful people, and add substantial costs to running the show. Promoters may be fooling uniformed spectators, but they are not fooling sophisticated competitors or fans.

 

[DanielBishop]

Well, drug testing as well as polygraph testing.... I think it's probably a good combination. If not perfect, probably the best you could get.

And I think the World Natural Bodybuilding Comittee or whatever the hell they are.... actually have an interest in producing natural bodybuilders. Why else would they exist? Obviously they aren't going to compete with the IFBB and stuff, so it would be in their interest to make sure their competitors are clean like they claim. Because if their audience wanted to see roiders, they'd watch IFBB.

Anyway, thanks for that link. Might come in handy one day.

 

[Grizzly]

Sure, the Committe has interests in producing natural athletes, but the athletes has an interest in winning. I know when I step on stage it isn't with the intention of losing. So, the athletes with the highest drive to win and the lowest code of ethics(not because I think steroids are wrong, but because I think competing in natural shows while using is wrong and unethical) will juice so that way they can win. And, by using and developing a great physique while comepting "naturally" guys like Skip LaCour and Mike O'Hearn can make shitloads of dough promoting bogus supplements claiming that that is how they developed their physique. It's a great career move.

 

[DanielBishop]

Career move.... yeah, I see your point. But before I mentioned him, have you ever even HEARD of Kiyoshi Moody?

I'm just saying that the IFBB must know the pros are using massive amounts of drugs.... but turn a blind eye, because freaks are what the paying audience wants to see. If people are going to check out the Natural organisation over IFBB or whatever, it's obviously because they want to see natural physiques.

And since the organisation wants natural physiques as well, they'll be keeping a pretty close eye on it....

.... by the way, Kiyoshi isn't as big as Skip La Cour or Mike O'Hearn.

 

[Grizzly]

Nah, I've never heard of that Moody fellow. Of course, the IFBB knows what's going down. But, they don't care. And rightly not. I don't know the exact numbers, but I know that there is a huge difference in the attendance numbers between natural shows and IFBB shows. Why? Because people want the freaks. They're more impressive. I mean, who looks better, Skip LaCour or Dexter Jackson? BTW- I on purpose chose one of the smaller pros who demonstrates just how great of an effect steroids can have without becoming a gigantic, beastial monstrosity.