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Partial Birth Abortion Ban Passes

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WASHINGTON — The Senate voted overwhelmingly Thursday to ban a procedure that critics call partial birth abortion, a triumph for President Bush and the Republicans who took control of Congress this year.

The 65-32 vote sent the legislation to the GOP-controlled House, where passage is expected this spring.

The lopsided roll call was a marked contrast to three days of emotionally-charged debate in which supporters of the bill attacked the controversial procedure as barbaric and opponents said the measure was the opening he Senate floor. Abortion opponents have been working for eight years to put the ban into law, and with a sympathetic president in the White House, are likely to succeed within a matter of weeks or months.

Abortion rights supporters have pledged a court challenge. "This bill is unconstitutional," argued Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., citing the lack of an exemption in cases where the health of the mother is in jeopardy.

The bill prohibits doctors from committing an "overt act" designed to kill a partially delivered fetus. Partial birth is described as a case in which the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the event of a breech delivery, if "any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother."

The legislation includes an exemption in cases in which the procedure is necessary to save the life of the mother.

The debate over the measure reflected hardened political lines on abortion, an issue that Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill., said was dividing America as deeply as slavery did in the 19th century. The Supreme Court ruled in 1973 that women had the right to an abortion.

For much of the time since, abortion rights supporters have had enough support in Congress or the White House to fend off most attempts to restrict the rights the court identified in its 1973 ruling.

But beginning in 1995, abortion opponents have focused their efforts on the partial-birth procedure, putting their political foes on the defensive.

Congress twice before passed legislation to impose a ban, but former President Clinton vetoed both measures. A third attempt was sidetracked in 2000 when the Supreme Court invalidated a Nebraska state law that closely resembled the measure moving through the House and Senate. Yet a fourth attempt failed last year when Democrats, then in control of the Senate, refused to schedule a vote.

Abortion rights advocates scored one victory on Wednesday when the Senate voted 52-46 in support of the landmark 1973 Roe v. Wade ruling that gave women the right to end their pregnancies.

It was the first referendum on the 30-year-old ruling since the new Congress convened in January, and nine of the 11 newcomers to the Senate signaled opposition to the 1973 ruling.

That was a nonbinding vote, and on the legislative skirmishes that counted, abortion foes were in command.

On a vote of 60-38, the Senate first killed a proposal to ban a range of late-term abortions with exceptions for the health of the mother, exceptions that critics said rendered the prohibition all but meaningless.

Moments later, on a vote of 56-42, lawmakers rejected a call to have the bill rewritten in committee to address "constitutional issues raised by the Supreme Court" in a 2000 ruling.

Later in the day, in a final triumph for abortion foes, the Senate rejected a second attempt to substitute a ban on abortions after the fetus is viable outside the mother. That proposal included exceptions for the life and health of the mother, and failed, 60-35.

Durbin authored the proposal to ban a wider range of late-term abortions, but it drew opposition from abortion foes and abortion rights supporters as well.

It would have prohibited abortions after the point that the fetus could survive outside the mother, tempered by an exception in cases that threaten a mother's life or "risk grievous injury to her physical health."

"It doesn't ban abortion, which is what some people want. And it doesn't get the government out of the picture, which is what some other people want," he said. "Instead, it tries to draw a line, a good faith line of where we will allow abortions in late term pregnancies."
 
FINALLY, legislation has been passed to pass the barbaric murder of babies by way of Partial-Birth Abortion. Do you know how that procedure is done? Well, usually the baby (called a "fetus" by abortion rights activists) is in it's last three month term in the mother's womb. The doctor performing the abortion then injects drugs into the mother (called a "patient" by abortion rights activists) to induce labor. Once the baby is near the vagina opening, the doctor then takes a long needle and jams it into the baby's head, then sucks all the brains out of the baby, rendering it dead. Thus, this abortion a.k.a. murder is LEGAL because the baby was dead before it passed through the mother's vagina (meaning it was dead before it was BORN, thus its not murder in the sense that the baby was born, then killed). LIKE THERE IS A DIFFERNECE? How is a partial-birth abortion really that much different that actually having the child, then a minute later killing it? It's alive and functioning whether INSIDER or OUTSIDE the womb. The VAST MAJORITY of women who have abortions are not rape victims, but women who were too irresponsible to wear a condom, or they are just plain whores. So I guess that all of these unborn babies should be killed because they might "cramp the lifestyle" of their mothers.
 
yeah, feminists, yeah...suck that GOP controlled cock...oh yeah...that's right....just like that....let it blow that legislation all over your face, chest, and hair...moaannn...yeah..
 
Ignorant fucks.

1. No one really does these things anyway.
2. You couldn't stop an Ob/Gyn from doing one if that's what he really wanted to do.
3. It probably won't hold up in court anyway.
4. This is nothing but a tactic to do an end-around Roe v Wade

And guess what (ultra right-wing conservatives)? It won't work.
 
thebabydoc said:
Ignorant fucks.

1. No one really does these things anyway.
2. You couldn't stop an Ob/Gyn from doing one if that's what he really wanted to do.
3. It probably won't hold up in court anyway.
4. This is nothing but a tactic to do an end-around Roe v Wade

And guess what (ultra right-wing conservatives)? It won't work.

ultra right wing conservatives? um, the polls i have seen show way more americans against partial birth abortions than those for it. plus, did not 65 senators vote for the ban? are all of them 'ultra right-wing conservatives'? i think not.

Roe vs Wade should be done away with, not because one may disagree with it, but because it is just an example of how activist judges push liberal legislation through. there was no way congress would have approved such procedures, so instead these activist judges push their agenda into law, bypassing the congress.
 
this from an ABC News poll

"Most Oppose Partial Birth Abortions

With control of both the House of Representatives and the Senate, it's expected the Republicans will move to ban "partial-birth" abortions, also known as dilation and extraction abortions. Congress has twice before passed such measures, both vetoed by then-President Clinton. President Bush has said he would sign the bill.

The 69 percent in this poll who say partial-birth abortions shouldn't be legal takes in majorities across demographic groups, including 60 percent of Democrats and 63 percent of liberals. "


http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/abortion_poll030122.html
 
i agree with babydoc, those are rarely if ever done.

my only problem is that if this bill passes, pro-lifers will continue to take steps to keep limiting abortions until none are allowed. i have some issues with abortion, but i do believe it should be a woman's choice, up to a certain point. it never ceases to amaze me how many men are so against abortion, but ask them to stick around and take care of a child, and where the hell are they?:rolleyes: its easy to take a stand against something when you will never be in the postion to make the choice.
 
I just can't believe with a user name like "babydoc" would be for killing babies. Please don't work my kids ok?

Tex girl, I agree with your statement about the man. But the woman should be able to do what she wants I disagree with. If she had consensual sex with someone and didn't make sure she was protected, her right to choose is over then. Because now she has another human being in her. If she didn't want to get pregnant, maybe she should have a thought a little bit before she opened her legs and said "ahhh".
 
The number of partial birth abortions or (third trimester abortions where the baby could be delivered alive) vary from 1,000 to 5,000 per year depending on the source. Even if there are only 10 it warrants a ban. I am pro choice but there is no reason for over 1,000,000 abortions to be performed annually. Also, Roe V. Wade offers little protection. It was a supreme court decision about a case in Texas. There are hundreds of ways for states to ban abortions by making life hell for the doctors, zoning, equipment, etc.. Abortion is legal because any politician who trys to ban it is committing career suicide.
 
thebabydoc said:
Ignorant fucks.

thebabydoc said:

1. No one really does these things anyway.

And that's not ignorant??

thebabydoc said:

2. You couldn't stop an Ob/Gyn from doing one if that's what he really wanted to do.

Recent laws have stopped doctors from prescribing steroids. I would think that would be easier to get away with than disposing of a baby's corpse.

thebabydoc said:

3. It probably won't hold up in court anyway.

Doesn't have to.

thebabydoc said:

4. This is nothing but a tactic to do an end-around Roe v Wade

There are plenty of ways to get around Roe v Wade. This isn't one of them.

thebabydoc said:

And guess what (ultra right-wing conservatives)? It won't work.

Wait and see.
 
Originally posted by TEXgrl

i agree with babydoc, those are rarely if ever done.

my only problem is that if this bill passes, pro-lifers will continue to take steps to keep limiting abortions until none are allowed. i have some issues with abortion, but i do believe it should be a woman's choice, up to a certain point. it never ceases to amaze me how many men are so against abortion, but ask them to stick around and take care of a child, and where the hell are they? its easy to take a stand against something when you will never be in the postion to make the choice.

I couldn't have said it better myself...terrific post.
 
curling said:


Tex girl, I agree with your statement about the man. But the woman should be able to do what she wants I disagree with. If she had consensual sex with someone and didn't make sure she was protected, her right to choose is over then. Because now she has another human being in her. If she didn't want to get pregnant, maybe she should have a thought a little bit before she opened her legs and said "ahhh".

i don't believe women should use abortion as a means of birthcontrol, i never said that. lots of times there is more to it than simply opening up and saying "ahhh" rape, molestation, something wrong with the fetus, risk to the mother, a teen ill prepared to take care of a baby, a habitual drug user who is pregnant, i could go on, but you see my point. i think to bring a child into a world where it is not wanted is equally as bad.

if you put the burden of protection on the woman alone when she is having sex, the decision should be hers alone. typical male response to place blame on a single person, then want to take away all their rights.

are you telling me every time in life you have had sex you have given thought to protection, not just against pregnancy but against disease as well?

to make abortions illegal will not stop them from going on.

to try to explain how a woman feels when faced with an unexpected pregnancy to a man is simply not possible. i'm not flaming anyone here, i'm merely stating my view of the matter, just like all you guys here. the only exception is, i've been there, as a woman, and you never will be there.
 
TEXgrl said:


i don't believe women should use abortion as a means of birthcontrol, i never said that. lots of times there is more to it than simply opening up and saying "ahhh" rape, molestation, something wrong with the fetus, risk to the mother, a teen ill prepared to take care of a baby, a habitual drug user who is pregnant,


The only one I could see is possibly rape. Since the girl had no choice in the matter. The drug user get her fixed so she can never have kids. The teen she played not she has to pay. Her parents can help her raise it since they did such a wonderful job informing her about sex or she could give it up for abortion.

i could go on, but you see my point. i think to bring a child into a world where it is not wanted is equally as bad.

With the lines so long for couples wanting children I think adoption is a better choice.

if you put the burden of protection on the woman alone when she is having sex, the decision should be hers alone. typical male response to place blame on a single person, then want to take away all their rights.

I don't put it there it is just a reality. Men don't get pregnant women do. So if I was chick you better believe I would make the dude wear protection. Like I said her right was to say no before they had sex not to kill some baby because she was dumb.

are you telling me every time in life you have had sex you have given thought to protection, not just against pregnancy but against disease as well?

Yes. I was with a few different chicks before I was married and I would always think of the consequences to the chick and to myself even if the chick was saying "cum in me" or some other wild sex talk. I wouldn't. I always thought guys were dumbasses that bust in chicks with out a condom. They should lose their right to have kids too. See I am not one sided.

to make abortions illegal will not stop them from going on.

I sure bet it would slow abortions down. Because then the chick is gambling with her life to instead of just killing her baby.
 
TEXgrl said:


i don't believe women should use abortion as a means of birthcontrol, i never said that.

That is the typical response, but it denies the reality that abortion has become a means of birth control. To argue that we should disregard the fact that it is used as a means of birth control to protect the very few that are risks to life or non-consentual is insane. Abortion is valid as a means to protect one's life in the situation that the mother is at risk or when the infant is severely malformed.

lots of times there is more to it than simply opening up and saying "ahhh" rape, molestation, something wrong with the fetus, risk to the mother, a teen ill prepared to take care of a baby, a habitual drug user who is pregnant, i could go on, but you see my point. i think to bring a child into a world where it is not wanted is equally as bad.

That argument is not valid, since the infant becomes a free individual and then has claims to its own life. Why do we stop at birth? Why not be able to terminate infants post-partum, up to some arbitrary age? There is no magical process whereby air gives individuality to the infant, it was a living being the day before it's birth as it is the day after it's birth.

if you put the burden of protection on the woman alone when she is having sex, the decision should be hers alone. typical male response to place blame on a single person, then want to take away all their rights.

The woman does have the burden placed on her, she is the one who has the most responsibility, she cannot deny this. She has to be aware of her actions, since her consequences are greater than the male's. If you are the driver of a car, are you or your passenger responsible for any injuries you inflict on others?

are you telling me every time in life you have had sex you have given thought to protection, not just against pregnancy but against disease as well?

If you drink and drive are you not responsible for your actions? Even if you did not consider the consequences.

to make abortions illegal will not stop them from going on.

Laws against actions have never made these actions disappear, it simply defines the rules of society and protection of individual rights and defines the punishments for infringing on these rights.

to try to explain how a woman feels when faced with an unexpected pregnancy to a man is simply not possible. i'm not flaming anyone here, i'm merely stating my view of the matter, just like all you guys here. the only exception is, i've been there, as a woman, and you never will be there.

Emotion is not a valid argument. Whites did not "feel" that blacks were equal, and therefore disregarded their civil liberties, allowing for the sale, purchase and execution of human beings.

Women need to wake up and take responsibility of their actions. They have the onus placed on them by nature, which one cannot deny. With the access of birth control, there should be very few abortions performed today, but we see a total disregard for personal responsibility and a purely animalistic concept of sexual nature.
 
BabyDoc is correct.

Partial Birth Abortion is NOT the same as a abortion.
I would suggest a few people here learn about the differences.


To even compare partial birth abortion to abortion as a form of birth control is ridiculous. Again they are totally different procedures.

Even if the ban on partial birth abortion were to pass abortion would still remain and people will still continue to have sex - complete with an accident here and there.

To the religious folk and accident would be an act of God.

To each his own belief.
 
Man this is a tough one. Since I don't know what partial "whatever the term is" abortions are, I can't give an educated opinion. I've always struggled with this issue. When is a fetus considered a living being? A human infant cannot protect itself, so someone else has to. On one hand, I look at the world around me and see how shitty it actually is and think that the world doesn't need unwanted children when there are plenty of starving ones now. On the other hand, I can't get past what I think is actually killing a human being once it reaches a certain point in the womb, just because someone doesn't want him or her.
 
TEXgrl said:
i agree with babydoc, those are rarely if ever done.

my only problem is that if this bill passes, pro-lifers will continue to take steps to keep limiting abortions until none are allowed. i have some issues with abortion, but i do believe it should be a woman's choice, up to a certain point. it never ceases to amaze me how many men are so against abortion, but ask them to stick around and take care of a child, and where the hell are they?:rolleyes: its easy to take a stand against something when you will never be in the postion to make the choice.
This is my point exactly.

p0ink: "And guess what (ultra right-wing conservatives)? It won't work." refers to those who think they're gonna do an end-around Roe v. Wade with this pile of manure.

Politicians and conservatives and religious zealots need to stop telling citizens what they can't and can do with their bodies and physicians how to practice medicine because, truth is, educationally and intellectually, they're just not in the position to do so.
 
Last edited:
texgrl, i think your being a lil bit of a man hater here arent you? 'ask them to stay around and see what they do' . well honey i think that means the guy youve been laying down with is a piece of shit. its not a damnation on the whole sex. im sure it wasnt meant that way, but it sounded like one of those trashy bitches complaining about men cause they cant get laid.

personally, being bred with a sense of responsibilty when it counts at least, i would step up to what i caused. no reason for a kid to die cause i dont have my shit together.

and what about these women? i know of plenty of snakey nasty bitches who loved there kids alot. tried there best to do right by them. these are women i wondered how they even had a BF, there personality was so repugnent. i dont know if i could sleep in the same bed as a woman who hoovered there kids out of them.

i think theres a class aspect to it as well. i am living in a economiclly depressed area, and every girl i know who was actually preggers have had there kids. they are not overburdened with cash. seems like most women who do this are middle to upper class, and think they are a bit more important than they are. they have put there social life above the total life of there potential kid, and chose to kill it. dont look good to me.

as for a womans right to choose, i say it doesnt exist. democrats lay that out cause most women are pavlovian dogs, thinking that supporting abortion is hurting men somehow. i would love to kill everyone who inconvienced me. but in the end i remeber that life is a bit more sacrosanct than wasting someone for looking at you wrong, or terminating a life do to the carriers irresponsibility.

its funny, dems will support a thing that insures a nasty death to a human, but will shit there pants and roll in it over a pistol. a bit fucked up arent they?
 
curling said:
I just can't believe with a user name like "babydoc" would be for killing babies. Please don't work my kids ok?
I guess that shows your ignorance. If I deliver 300 babies a year and I agree with abortion, is it possible I might be in a better position than you or some politician to comment and judge on its necessity and medical and moral implications?

I'm actually surprised it's not 99.9% of the people who would be against "partial birth" abortions. I for one think it's a horrific joke that only works against those working to maintain a woman's right to choose and is completely unnecessary.

Originally posted by curling Tex girl, I agree with your statement about the man. But the woman should be able to do what she wants I disagree with. If she had consensual sex with someone and didn't make sure she was protected, her right to choose is over then. Because now she has another human being in her. If she didn't want to get pregnant, maybe she should have a thought a little bit before she opened her legs and said "ahhh".
What about rape? Incest? Genetic malformations? Non-viable defects? It's all so black-and-white for those of you who don't deal with this day in and day out. Pure blind ignorance. It's like arguing with SSAlexSS or 2Thick (whose absence of late is a welcome relief to intelligent life everywhere)

"Pro-Life" (e.g. anti-choice, free will, self-determination, etc...) always bases their arguments on INVALID and ERRONEOUS assumptions like "life begins at conception".

Do me a favor. Anyone AND I MEAN ANYONE post up Webster's (or any other LEGITIMATE) definition of "Parasite".
 
thebabydoc said:

Politicians and conservatives and religious zealots need to stop telling citizens what they can't and can do with their bodies and physicians how to practice medicine because, truth is, educationally and intelectually, they're just not in the position to do so.


Amen!

Best Elite Post 2003!


...you don't mind if I quote you do you?
 
babydoc

i take it by non viable, you mean that it cant live outside the womb right? ok, thats fine with me, as is a provision for the mothers health. i dont consider it much of an abortion if the kid was say born without a brain.

i dont give a damn how many kids you deliver a year. im sure at one time some of hitlers best guys delivered kids as well. not great guys for anything, as im sure you will agree. my point is, so you dont try to divert this by saying i said you were a nazi, is that no it doesnt really matter.

what are your thoughts on Janet Yates? since the drowning was only 4-6 mins, is that ok? were you one of the ppl who said it was all because of her post pregnancy depression?

call me an ultracon [ultra conservative] far right wing or all those other cute bullshit names you try to label [libel] ppl with. im standing with goodness on this one.

as for calling a baby a parasite, i think its you who is a leech on societies asshole, asshole.
 
Sinistar said:
babydoc

call me an ultracon [ultra conservative] far right wing or all those other cute bullshit names you try to label [libel] ppl with. im standing with goodness on this one.

as for calling a baby a parasite, i think its you who is a leech on societies asshole, asshole.
Hmmmm... I reread my post at least a dozen times and let me quote it:
Do me a favor. Anyone AND I MEAN ANYONE post up Webster's (or any other LEGITIMATE) definition of "Parasite".
I didn't call a BABY a parasite. Looks like you just did. Is that because deep down that's what you believe to be true?

"no reason for a kid to die cause i dont have my shit together"
before it was a "baby," now it's a "kid." What next, a "Harvard graduate?"
i think theres a class aspect to it as well. i am living in a economiclly depressed area, and every girl i know who was actually preggers have had there kids. they are not overburdened with cash. seems like most women who do this are middle to upper class, and think they are a bit more important than they are. they have put there social life above the total life of there potential kid, and chose to kill it
So this is your opinion on the "middle to upper class" and why they have abortions. Very factually correct from your vast experience with performing abortions and being a part of the middle or upper class.
Now here's where and why my "experience" comes in. I know your assumptions to be absolutely incorrect. Fact is, they scrape up the money they need to have the abortion just like they get the money to buy cigarettes or crack or meth. They do it because it's cheaper than having the child. Do you happen to know that 1 out of every 2 women has had an abortion? So much for your "moral majority" which, of course, is neither.

Your comments and their manner of presentation is typical of all you holier-than-thou-wanna-impose-your-beliefs-on-everyone-else right-to-lifers: "Baby", "goodness", "life", the reference to Janet Yates, (who killed her LIVING CHILDREN)- all INVALID, MANIPULATIVE, and ERRONEOUS terms to try to validate an untenable point.
 
atlantabiolab said:
Women need to wake up and take responsibility of their actions. They have the onus placed on them by nature, which one cannot deny. With the access of birth control, there should be very few abortions performed today, but we see a total disregard for personal responsibility and a purely animalistic concept of sexual nature.
Oh my God. You did NOT just say that. You are either blinded by your "emotion" on this issue or just unbelievably ignorant and uneducated.
 
par·a·site ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-st)
n.
Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.
 
HOLY SHIT, BABYDOC MADE A SPELLING ERROR!!! VELVETT QUOTED IT BEFORE YOU EDITED IT!!! LOL, THAT DONT HAPPEN TOO OFTEN.

ANYWAY, SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE BABYDOC BUT THE BOTTOME LINE IS, HE KNOWS HIS SHIT. TWO PEOPLE YOU DONT ARGUE WITH ON ELITE IS AAP AND BABYDOC. MOST LIKELY, BOTH WILL MAKE YOU LOOK STUPID!!!



KAYNE
 
It was my understanding that most doctors don't even perform thse abortions, and when they are performed it is due to the mother's health, or a serious deformity in the fetus.:confused:
 
To all those who say partial birth abortion is not the same as abortion, your right. It is as close to torture and slaughter as one can get. It is the most despicable act one can perform.

I suggest to those who support this hellish ritual to go and watch it take place. I gaurantee that you'll toss your lunch in the waste bucket.

Doctor's who perform this are akin to Nazi's.

As for "abortion" If so many are up for it as the females here and a few males indicate and it is not for birth control. Then why do you need it? Why not just get sterilized and never have to worry about it.

The pro abortion arguments are sickening at best and nightmarish in general.

When this country is looked upon by the future this infamous murdering of humans will stand out as our darkest moment.
 
KAYNE said:
HOLY SHIT, BABYDOC MADE A SPELLING ERROR!!! VELVETT QUOTED IT BEFORE YOU EDITED IT!!! LOL, THAT DONT HAPPEN TOO OFTEN.

ANYWAY, SOME OF YOU MAY NOT LIKE BABYDOC BUT THE BOTTOME LINE IS, HE KNOWS HIS SHIT. TWO PEOPLE YOU DONT ARGUE WITH ON ELITE IS AAP AND BABYDOC. MOST LIKELY, BOTH WILL MAKE YOU LOOK STUPID!!!



KAYNE


AAP is your hero............homosexual.
 
ok babydoc, if you werent calling a kid a parasite, what was the meaning of that last sentence?

baby/kid/whatever. weak ass rebuttal on that part. shows that your reaching.

conservative/holier than thou/other bullshit: see my other post on your type labeling ppl.

if there is no right or goodness, there little reason to have laws. after all, all things are equal.

post some data backing up your claim that 50 fucking percent of the female population has had an abortion.

which if it were true, would make british/american women bigger butchers than hitler, gengis khan, and stalin combined. nice allies.
 
Of all people who should respect life it would be a baby doctor. What was that oath? The hypocratic? or the hypocritical. Don't lecture to me about intelligence level or the ability to argure a point against something like abortion. I know far more about killing than most on this board and so I am qualified as you put it to talk about abortion (killing of a human)

What is the point of abortion? Woman scream they are better than us because they can have babies and we can't. Then they argue for and obtain the permission of the court to end that process at will. Where is the logic in that? Seems to me they are no better than us or your local thug.

Here is a fact: If a woman 3 months pregnant is on her way to have an abortion (appointment in hand) and she is attacked and beaten to the point she has a miscarriage the perpetrator will be caught, charged, tried and convicted of murder of the unborn child regardless of the fact the mother was on the way to an abortion appointment.

So you tell me, Why is it murder for this perp and not murder for the woman. Not too mention she was paying for the death of the child and the perp did it for free. In fact paying for a murder is considered a capitol offense and punishable by death in most states.

Hmmmmm?
 
hey, can i bust my dumb slut GF in the stomach for getting preggers? after all, its half mine.

BTW, im still looking for that stat on %50 of women having abortions.
 
thebabydoc said:
.

Politicians and conservatives and religious zealots need to stop telling citizens what they can't and can do with their bodies and physicians how to practice medicine because, truth is, educationally and intellectually, they're just not in the position to do so.

man i wish they would leave people alone. it pisses me off that abortions are legal but i cant legally pay for sex from the same women that supposedly has the right to do what she wants with her body. plus i'd like to get juice legally.

me, i dont believe in abortions. i base my decision strictly on emotional grounds. but i would never force my decision on others. i do believe people can do what they want with thier bodies.
 
thebabydoc said:
Ignorant fucks.

1. No one really does these things anyway.
2. You couldn't stop an Ob/Gyn from doing one if that's what he really wanted to do.

1. Wrong.

2. Well, FIRST DEGREE MURDER charges might.
 
This shit makes me want to fucking puke.

Brenda Pratt Shafer, a registered nurse from Dayton, Ohio, assisted Dr. Haskell in a Partial Birth Abortion on a 26-1/2 week (over 6 months) pre-born baby boy. She testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee (on 11/17/95) about what she witnessed. According to nurse Shafer, the baby was alive and moving as the abortionist “delivered the baby’s body and arms - everything but the head. The doctor kept the baby’s head just inside the uterus. The baby’s little fingers were clasping and unclasping, his feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors through the back of his head, and the baby’s arms jerked out in a flinch, a startle reaction, like a baby does when he thinks he might fall. The doctor opened up the scissors, stuck a high-powered suction tube into the opening and sucked the baby’s brains out. Now the baby was completely limp.
 
Positively the most vial of any thing a human has ever done to its own. Especially to defenseless baby's who didn't ask to be created and most certainly didn't ask to be slaughtered.

Any bitch (anyone) that would elect this, condone this as routine, my right, etc. should be aborted and tossed away with the garbage.
 
I do not agree with abortion so I am glad this bill is going up. Abortion is like welfare... for scum.

People who are pro-choice could also be somthing else... if they want to kill children... the concept makes me sick.
 
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check out the location...and this guy is very college educated.
 
TEXgrl said:
i agree with babydoc, those are rarely if ever done.

my only problem is that if this bill passes, pro-lifers will continue to take steps to keep limiting abortions until none are allowed. i have some issues with abortion, but i do believe it should be a woman's choice, up to a certain point. it never ceases to amaze me how many men are so against abortion, but ask them to stick around and take care of a child, and where the hell are they?:rolleyes: its easy to take a stand against something when you will never be in the postion to make the choice.

this is the kind of shit i'm talking about.

Question: when does it become a life?
Answer: when it is convenient for the woman.

before you people jump down my fucking throat; hear me out.

i recently read about a case in which a guy murdered a pregnant woman, and guess how many counts of murder he was charged with? that's right, 2.

that is fucking bullshit. it is a life in some instances but not a life in others. make up your minds.
 
I am sooo glad I had those runts sucked out. My life would have been ruined if I would have had to take care of a runt with the bitch I inpregnated. I used a condom the first time and she got prego. Sucked that one out like I'm suckin my SoCo and coke. Once that happened, we thought what the hell. Might as well enjoy it without a condom. Well a year later I got her prego again. Sucked that one out but this time it was local instead of general anesthesia. She said she would bnever do that again after hearing those horrible sucking sounds. After the first time though, they said to wait 2 weeks until having sex again. Well we were 16 at the time so we were pretty fucking horny all the time. We ended up fucking 3 or 4 days after the abortion. I pulled my dick out and there was this red globby shit on my dick. I said hey look it's junior. We both laughed and washed it off. :finger: :doublefi: :doublefi: :mommakin: :mommakin: :elephant: :dance2: :garza:
 
I NVR REALLY THOUGHT ABOUT IT BUT I GUESS I'M PRO CHOICE. HOWEVER, I DONT THINK ABORTIONS AFTER A CERTAIN TIME FRAME SHOULD BE LEGAL. SAY 12 WEEKS OR SO. JUST MY 2 CENTS.





KAYNE
 
DELIQUENT: POST OF THE YEAR!!!

i know were from opposite sides of the fence but wow what a piece of literature that was.

shocking. you are a very talented man.
 
p0ink said:
i recently read about a case in which a guy murdered a pregnant woman, and guess how many counts of murder he was charged with? that's right, 2.

that is fucking bullshit. it is a life in some instances but not a life in others. make up your minds.
'cmon man, are you kidding me? That woman was what, 34 weeks pregnant? Different story. It is also an undesired termination, a totally different issue, and lastly, who ever said the police were fair and equal in their prosecuting techniques, plus since when do they represent the pro-choice coalition?

You're gonna have to try a bit harder, dude 'cause like I said, you're arguing a totally emotional point from your side and you have not a leg to stand on.
 
Sinistar said:
DELIQUENT: POST OF THE YEAR!!!

i know were from opposite sides of the fence but wow what a piece of literature that was.

shocking. you are a very talented man.


Hey man I don't know if you were supporting my statement or if it was sarcasm. I appreciate it if you were in support of my statement but WHY CAN'T ANYONE SPELL MY NAME RIGHT. IT'S DELINQUENT!!!
 
thebabydoc said:
'cmon man, are you kidding me? That woman was what, 34 weeks pregnant? Different story. It is also an undesired termination, a totally different issue, and lastly, who ever said the police were fair and equal in their prosecuting techniques, plus since when do they represent the pro-choice coalition?

You're gonna have to try a bit harder, dude 'cause like I said, you're arguing a totally emotional point from your side and you have not a leg to stand on.

how was i arguing from an emotional standpoint when i pointed out the fact, that the only reason abortion is legal is because of some activist judges who circumvented congress to turn liberal agendas into law?

please tell me when a fetus becomes a 'human being', so i know when to avoid hitting pregnant women with my car, so i can avoid 2 counts of manslaughter, instead of 1.

and you proved my point, it is a life when the woman determines it to be.

who cares if it was an 'undesired termination'? did that make it any less of a life than a 'desired termination'?
 
chesty said:
Of all people who should respect life it would be a baby doctor. What was that oath? The hypocratic? or the hypocritical. Don't lecture to me about intelligence level or the ability to argure a point against something like abortion. I know far more about killing than most on this board and so I am qualified as you put it to talk about abortion (killing of a human)
Yet another twisting of words and fact for effect. your definition of abortion (killing of a human) is completely wrong, biased, and baseless and therefore eliminates any claim you may have to "expertise" (which by your own accord only consists of knowing how to kill) Hey, I know how to drive fast, I even have a fast car, it doesn't make me a race car driver.

Don't kid yourself, from a medicolegal standpoint you have NO qualifications to talk about abortion. You want to talk about how you feel morally, great, don't have an abortion then. Just stop trying to force anyone else to abide by your misguided beliefs. Your rights to express your opinion end at my and anyone else's body.

As for that ridiculousness you posted:
firstly, the hippocratic oath is obsolete in today's society (try reading the whole thing before you even bring it up) and has actually been abandoned at most medical school graduating ceremonies, so stuff that in your pipe and smoke it.
Secondly, (and I already addressed this bogus point) who cares what they prosecute a murderer for, the police do not represent the pro-choice movement. This statement is just slightly to the left of saying a "partial birth" abortion has anything to do with a first-trimester abortion.
 
TEXgrl said:
my only problem is that if this bill passes, pro-lifers will continue to take steps to keep limiting abortions until none are allowed. i have some issues with abortion, but i do believe it should be a woman's choice, up to a certain point. it never ceases to amaze me how many men are so against abortion, but ask them to stick around and take care of a child, and where the hell are they?:rolleyes: its easy to take a stand against something when you will never be in the postion to make the choice.

oh, i see how it is. it is the 'woman's baby' and the 'woman's choice' when it comes to an abortion, but when the bills start coming in, it becomes the man's problem as well.

just ring the bell and take money.

thanks for clearing that up for me.
 
p0ink said:


oh, i see how it is. it is the 'woman's baby' and the 'woman's choice' when it comes to an abortion, but when the bills start coming in, it becomes the man's problem as well.

just ring the bell and take money.

thanks for clearing that up for me.
I am torn by this response because I agree with you on this one, but this presents a bizarre connundrum. There is no right answer to this statement except to say you are right, in cases where the father does not want the child yet the mother does I guess you should be able to relinquish parental rights and not be held liable. Just because the man's the sperm donor doesn't make him responsible for the rest of his life.

But why would you be arguing this point? You are against abortion and believe that it's ok to tell someone what they can and can't do with their body. Amazing how pro-life will take whatever side suits them. Sort of like killing or advocating the kiling of abortion providers, hmmmmm taking an established, undeniable human life to save an unconfirmed, debatable life- an interesting concept to say the least. Shows where the true hippocracy lies.

And pOink, no one said it was a human life when the woman chooses to be; it is the ability to eventually become a human life that counts in this argument. Once again, twisting the facts ever so slightly to suit your argument. But it won't work with me.
 
Last edited:
Again, you have no basis talking legality with me. It is the taking of a life that is unwanted. You want to call it a fetus or a non-human life form to appease your conscience and fill your wallet, then by all means.

If a woman was one day pregnant and the scenario I put up occured he would still be tried for murder. You rant and rave about people not having the intellect to talk about abortion I don't think you have half of the intellect that most have on this board.

Death is death, it is living tissue, a living organism a living human being. By twelve weeks the baby is fully formed, functional and just growing stronger everyday.

You on the other hand would have us believe that it is nothing more than a collection of cells that is an inconvenience to some woman or couple.

You know what? An abortionist is nothing more than a nazi. A murdering pig for hire. And no amount of you or anyone else posturing themselves as being the only ones educated to talk about the subject because you are the only ones who know the subject is pathetic.

Your for it great. I am against it. I will always do whatever I can within the law to stop it.

And it is these people that I am ashamed to defend as a Marine, but unlike them I don't run from my responsibilities and duty, I stand up to be counted and accounted for.
 
chesty said:
Again, you have no basis talking legality with me. It is the taking of a life that is unwanted. You want to call it a fetus or a non-human life form to appease your conscience and fill your wallet, then by all means.

If a woman was one day pregnant and the scenario I put up occured he would still be tried for murder. You rant and rave about people not having the intellect to talk about abortion I don't think you have half of the intellect that most have on this board.

Death is death, it is living tissue, a living organism a living human being. By twelve weeks the baby is fully formed, functional and just growing stronger everyday.

You on the other hand would have us believe that it is nothing more than a collection of cells that is an inconvenience to some woman or couple.

You know what? An abortionist is nothing more than a nazi. A murdering pig for hire. And no amount of you or anyone else posturing themselves as being the only ones educated to talk about the subject because you are the only ones who know the subject is pathetic.

Your for it great. I am against it. I will always do whatever I can within the law to stop it.

And it is these people that I am ashamed to defend as a Marine, but unlike them I don't run from my responsibilities and duty, I stand up to be counted and accounted for.


Wow they programmed you well didn't they. Stupid robot/sheep/tool/drone/christian
 
thebabydoc said:
I am torn by this response because I agree with you on this one, but this presents a bizarre connundrum. There is no right answer to this statement except to say you are right, in cases where the father does not want the child yet the mother does I guess you should be able to relinquish parental rights and not be held liable. Just because the man's the sperm donor doesn't make him responsible for the rest of his life.

But why would you be arguing this point? You are against abortion and believe that it's ok to tell someone what they can and can't do with their body. Amazing how pro-life will take whatever side suits them. Sort of like killing or advocating the kiling of abortion providers, hmmmmm taking an established, undeniable human life to save an unconfirmed, debatable life- an interesting concept to say the least. Shows where the true hippocracy lies.

in all reality, im not 'pro-life' or 'pro-choice'. truth be told, i really dont care at all. abortions for everybody, so long as i (the taxpayer) dont get stuck paying for it.

i just enjoy being a thorn in the side of feminists, because i am getting sick and tired of their shit, and the general 'pass' females get in real life. how come they can have an abortion? how come they can get lipo/boob jobs/etc, but if a guy uses hormones to aid him in getting in shape, he can go to jail?

the less legislation, the better; no matter what it may involve.
 
I said nothing about the intellect for discussing the topic. I said you have no factual basis to rest on. I am perfectly happy to listen to your points of view, disprove them, and show why they have no factual basis and are nothing more than your personal, emotional response. Stop getting so emotional. This is an argument you can't win because the law and the facts are both on my side.

Words like "murder" and "human life" are nice for effect but have little to do with the facts, ma'am.

A twelve week fetus is NOT a human being. It cannot think, nor act independently, and most importantly it CANNOT survive outside the womb. We kill and eat animals, primates, mammals, shit anything we well please as humans, we kill the "enemy" in war. What arrogance is it to say that is ok but the taking of an uncompleted, unformed human life is ultimate evil incarnate? More hippocracy.

A Nazi, huh? Not too much sensationalism here. Please define Nazi, Chesty.
Your for it great. I am against it. I will always do whatever I can within the law to stop it.
which is exactly NOTHING but rant, rave, and spew non-sequitors.
 
Last edited:
Babydoc Said:
Now here's where and why my "experience" comes in. I know your assumptions to be absolutely incorrect. Fact is, they scrape up the money they need to have the abortion just like they get the money to buy cigarettes or crack or meth. They do it because it's cheaper than having the child. Do you happen to know that 1 out of every 2 women has had an abortion? So much for your "moral majority" which, of course, is neither.

now that your back, please show me where you get your facts. and no, i wont take your word for it.

as i understand it, most states have laws saying such info cant be given out. so i think your are lieing. and to clarify i mean a study that involves different ppl getting abortions, thereby making your claim of 1 out of 2 factually correct.

sorry to hurt your case, but i dont care for jerry falwell and pat robertson ect much more than you. thats a little before my time, and not my style. call me old fashioned, but i have a moral compass. its not a bad thing.
 
Delinquent

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(post #57)

quote:Originally posted by chesty
Again, you have no basis talking legality with me. It is the taking of a life that is unwanted. You want to call it a fetus or a non-human life form to appease your conscience and fill your wallet, then by all means.

If a woman was one day pregnant and the scenario I put up occured he would still be tried for murder. You rant and rave about people not having the intellect to talk about abortion I don't think you have half of the intellect that most have on this board.

Death is death, it is living tissue, a living organism a living human being. By twelve weeks the baby is fully formed, functional and just growing stronger everyday.

You on the other hand would have us believe that it is nothing more than a collection of cells that is an inconvenience to some woman or couple.

You know what? An abortionist is nothing more than a nazi. A murdering pig for hire. And no amount of you or anyone else posturing themselves as being the only ones educated to talk about the subject because you are the only ones who know the subject is pathetic.

Your for it great. I am against it. I will always do whatever I can within the law to stop it.

And it is these people that I am ashamed to defend as a Marine, but unlike them I don't run from my responsibilities and duty, I stand up to be counted and accounted for.


Wow they programmed you well didn't they. Stupid robot/sheep/tool/drone/christian

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My Comments Begin

this is like a nra member and a brady campaigner trading items from the latest newsletter. if one is full of shit the other is too.

oh, and what a nice attack on someone of faith. im sure youre destroying worlds right now.
 
thebabydoc said:


And pOink, no one said it was a human life when the woman chooses to be; it is the ability to eventually become a human life that counts in this argument.


SORT OF LIKE HOW ALL THOSE HIGH TECH STOCKS KEPT GOING UP AND UP EVEN THOUGH THE FIRMS WERENT MAKING A DIME AND SOME WERE EVEN LOSING MONEY. EVERYONE WAS GOING OFF OF EXPECTED FUTURE EARNINGS!!!

NOW I CAN RELATE TO THIS ARGUMENT. WE'RE GETTING INTO THE FINANCE ASPECT OF IT. THIS IS GREAT!!!



KAYNE (PS...THIS POST IS DEFINITELY SARCASTIC)
 
Last edited:
thebabydoc

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(post #55)

quote:Originally posted by p0ink


oh, i see how it is. it is the 'woman's baby' and the 'woman's choice' when it comes to an abortion, but when the bills start coming in, it becomes the man's problem as well.

just ring the bell and take money.

thanks for clearing that up for me. I am torn by this response because I agree with you on this one, but this presents a bizarre connundrum. There is no right answer to this statement except to say you are right, in cases where the father does not want the child yet the mother does I guess you should be able to relinquish parental rights and not be held liable. Just because the man's the sperm donor doesn't make him responsible for the rest of his life.

But why would you be arguing this point? You are against abortion and believe that it's ok to tell someone what they can and can't do with their body. Amazing how pro-life will take whatever side suits them. Sort of like killing or advocating the kiling of abortion providers, hmmmmm taking an established, undeniable human life to save an unconfirmed, debatable life- an interesting concept to say the least. Shows where the true hippocracy lies.

And pOink, no one said it was a human life when the woman chooses to be; it is the ability to eventually become a human life that counts in this argument. Once again, twisting the facts ever so slightly to suit your argument. But it won't work with me.

Last edited by thebabydoc on 14-Mar-2003 at 04:47 AM
 
chesty said:
To all those who say partial birth abortion is not the same as abortion, your right. It is as close to torture and slaughter as one can get. It is the most despicable act one can perform.
agreed

I suggest to those who support this hellish ritual to go and watch it take place. I gaurantee that you'll toss your lunch in the waste bucket.
we got the point, buddy, relax, take a deep breath. Not one person here has remotely suggested it is acceptable. A 26 week fetus is viable, can survive outside the womb and can perform basic cognitive functions.

Doctor's who perform this are akin to Nazi's.
Once again, deep breath, relax...not Nazi's, but agreed, not good folk.

The pro abortion arguments are sickening at best and nightmarish in general.
Opinions, opinions, opinions...

When this country is looked upon by the future this infamous murdering of humans will stand out as our darkest moment.
LOL! The irony!!! Coming from a soldier, a Marine no less!!!!!!!
 
But why would you be arguing this point? You are against abortion and believe that it's ok to tell someone what they can and can't do with their body. Amazing how pro-life will take whatever side suits them. Sort of like killing or advocating the kiling of abortion providers, hmmmmm taking an established, undeniable human life to save an unconfirmed, debatable life- an interesting concept to say the least. Shows where the true hippocracy lies.

my last post was yours in its entirety. now the above is the part id like to focus on. in this post you have called ppl with a veiw similar to mine holier than thou, dominating in our treatment of our women, saying were too stupid to have a fucking opinion, and other things, and now the above. you are making some very wide statements here that do not help your arguement. can you get past your broad brush statements to some facts, like where you got the 1 out of 2 women have had an abortion? no one on here has said a fucking thing about bombing abortion centers and killing doctors. being a bit sensational arent we? truth is, the overwhelming majority of us want to change minds, and do not want the terrorism you are describing. i cant believe a grown ass college educated man can say shit like this. and you say were excitable.
 
DO YOU PEOPLE REALIZE YOU ARE ARGUING ABORTION WITH A MAN WHO DELIVERS BABIES FOR A LIVING!!!




KAYNE
 
For the little firefly that asked,

I AM A GYNECOLOGIST, SHITHEAD.

I take a complete obstetrical history on all my patients, I count the numbers. I perform abortions. I take those histories and count those numbers, too. My friends trust me with their gynecological histories. My employees over the past 10 years have trusted me as well. No matter the socioeconomic group- fellow gynecologists, doctors, blue-collar workers, meth heads, Hispanic Catholics, THOSE ARE THE NUMBERS: ONE OUT OF TWO. You can check Planned Parenthood or the National Abortion Federation, but I'm sure they'd be too biased for you.

As for educational levels, learn to spell and use grammar and punctuation correctly if you even pray to be taken seriously. (Sorry Chesty, that goes for you too).
 
thebabydoc said:
For the little firefly that asked,

I AM A GYNECOLOGIST, SHITHEAD.

this is rather off topic, but that's ok.

do sex change patient's vaginas feel/look the same as a real vagina?

in a book i've read, there is a brochure of different artificial vaginas for this transvestite to choose from. is that really how they do things?
 
Not even close. They look (and smell) nasty, like a grenade went off there, it's just tons of scar tissue. And because they're not "natural" they have to be regularly lubricated and cleansed. The only thing they really are is a "hole for a pole," although whose I don't know.

Truly an argument for abortion.
 
For the little firefly that asked,

I AM A GYNECOLOGIST, SHITHEAD.

I take a complete obstetrical history on all my patients, I count the numbers. I perform abortions. I take those histories and count those numbers, too. My friends trust me with their gynecological histories. My employees over the past 10 years have trusted me as well. No matter the socioeconomic group- fellow gynecologists, doctors, blue-collar workers, meth heads, Hispanic Catholics, THOSE ARE THE NUMBERS: ONE OUT OF TWO. You can check Planned Parenthood or the National Abortion Federation, but I'm sure they'd be too biased for you.

As for educational levels, learn to spell and use grammar and punctuation correctly if you even pray to be taken seriously. (Sorry Chesty, that goes for you too).
-------------------------------------------------

ill pass on the grammar lesson thanks.

ill say it again. your stats for abortion are lies. you prolly made them up off the top of your head, hoping that by throwing out a large number you may shut ppl up. do you deal with alot of morons in your profession?
 
thebabydoc said:
Not even close. They look (and smell) nasty, like a grenade went off there, it's just tons of scar tissue. And because they're not "natural" they have to be regularly lubricated and cleansed. The only thing they really are is a "hole for a pole," although whose I don't know.

Truly an argument for abortion.

that is awful.

how many of these people have you run into?

i heard they split the cock in 4 pieces, scoop out the flesh, drill a hole into the body and then sew it up. is that how it's done?

either which way, these people should be shot.
 
Sinistar said:
ill pass on the grammar lesson thanks.

ill say it again. your stats for abortion are lies. you prolly made them up off the top of your head, hoping that by throwing out a large number you may shut ppl up. do you deal with alot of morons in your profession?
Yeah, I can see that you completely skipped skool altogether as well as the use of that little "quote" key. And by far the most complete and utter morons I deal with on a regular basis are here.

Read and learn, (if you can)

http://www.abfacts.org/Facts/Main.htm

http://www.abfacts.org/Facts/Factsheets/FS7.htm

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/sfaa.html

http://www.abfacts.org/Facts/Factsheets/FS6.htm

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/journals/3422602.html

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/journals/3500603.pdf


Bottom line- the number of abortions in the US has been steadily decreasing, which is the ultimate goal of true pro-choice and abortion activists. By acting, we do more than you ever will by protesting and trying to dictate what women must do with their bodies.
 
well use that quote button and show where i wanted to impose my evilness on others.

ive said it is murder, it should be illegal, anfd that women who get them are suspect. all very reasonable asertions. you have called us holier than thou ect ect ect, say we support kiling of doctors and bombing of abortion clinics. contrast those 2.
 
Originally posted by Sinistar well use that quote button and show where i wanted to impose my evilness on others.

ive said it is murder, it should be illegal, anfd that women who get them are suspect. all very reasonable asertions. you have called us holier than thou ect ect ect, say we support kiling of doctors and bombing of abortion clinics. contrast those 2.
You're an idiot. Debating with you is like talking to a rock. I guess I'll just go back to my tactic of ignoring you.
 
for a man who bases all he says in fact, except of course his lie about abortions, he sure doesnt like having his own words thrown at him.
 
Has anyone caught on to the fact that banning Paritial Birth Abortion will have no effect on any pregnant woman choosing to have an abortion during the first trimester of their pregnancy?

Let me ask - what is it that truly bothers you:

1 - A woman that you could have gotten pregnant made a choice that you may have not had a role in making (although you were involved in the choice to have sex in the first place.)

OR

2- That the fetus that will not be brought to term will not see the light of day?


Oddly enough people talk about the rights of the fetus which to me is rather funny because the fetus had no say when its parents decided to have sex and create the fetus in the first place.

Please take the time to understand the difference between an abortion betwwen the 1st Trimester and 3rd Trimester.

The concept of abortion is an emotional one that people are for or against for many reasons but one should never assume why another person is for or against the practice.


Whatever- the topic at hand here is partial birth abortion not abortion - is it right or wrong?
 
velvett said:
Has anyone caught on to the fact that banning Paritial Birth Abortion will have no effect on any pregnant woman choosing to have an abortion during the first trimester of their pregnancy?

Let me ask - what is it that truly bothers you:

1 - A woman that you could have gotten pregnant made a choice that you may have not had a role in making (although you were involved in the choice to have sex in the first place.)

OR

2- That the fetus that will not be brought to term will not see the light of day?


Oddly enough people talk about the rights of the fetus which to me is rather funny because the fetus had no say when its parents decided to have sex and create the fetus in the first place.

Please take the time to understand the difference between an abortion betwwen the 1st Trimester and 3rd Trimester.

The concept of abortion is an emotional one that people are for or against for many reasons but one should never assume why another person is for or against the practice.


Whatever- the topic at hand here is partial birth abortion not abortion - is it right or wrong?

great post velvet! i am clearly against 3rd trimester abortions, 1st trimester is a different story completely. i think women should have the choice, and have the opportunity to have it done in a safe and sterile enviroment.

i think the arguement on this topic has shifted toward abortion in general, and like you said, everyone has an opinion, and where abortion is concerned, you typically won't be able to sway people one way or the other.
 
p0ink said:


this is the kind of shit i'm talking about.

Question: when does it become a life?
Answer: when it is convenient for the woman.

before you people jump down my fucking throat; hear me out.

i recently read about a case in which a guy murdered a pregnant woman, and guess how many counts of murder he was charged with? that's right, 2.

that is fucking bullshit. it is a life in some instances but not a life in others. make up your minds.


i posted above this post, i'm in favor of 1st trimester abortions. 3rd trimester abortion should not be legal, i agree. 2nd trimester is questionable.

i didn't jump on you, just chimed in on the thread....with my opinion, last i checked, i still have the right to do that.
 
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thebabydoc said:
par·a·site ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-st)
n.
Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

What the fuck?!?!? Did you write this up yourself?? This is the layman term, similar to "Human. Others that look like me.", but this is far from the real definition of Parasite. Try and take a look at a real defining of "parasitism" and attempt to understand why a fetus NEVER qualifies as a parasite.

Parasitism
The term parasitism may be defined as a two-species association in which one species, the parasite, lives on or in a second species, the host, for a significant period of its life and obtains nourishment from it. This is a commonly accepted working definition of parasitism and using it we can emphasize several important features of the host-parasite relationship.

1. Parasitism always involves two species, the parasite and the host.

2. Many of these parasitic associations produce pathological changes in hosts that may result in disease.

3. Successful treatment and control of parasitic diseases requires not only comprehensive information about the parasite itself but also a good understanding of the nature of parasites' interactions with their hosts.

4. The parasite is always the beneficiary and the host is always the provider in any host-parasite relationship.

This comes from the University of Pennsylvannia Department of Parasitology, does this surpass your pathetic definition...I think so. By your weak reasoning a whale is a fish, cause it swims in the water. No scientist worth their weight would ever define progeny as parasites, since it infers that progeny are detrimental to a species.

You would do well to stop throwing around the idea that simply because you are a medical professional, that you are the bearer of all knowledge, since you are not living up to your assertions. As if Doctors ever lived up to the level of true scientists.
 
Sinistar said:
texgrl, i think your being a lil bit of a man hater here arent you? 'ask them to stay around and see what they do' . well honey i think that means the guy youve been laying down with is a piece of shit. its not a damnation on the whole sex. im sure it wasnt meant that way, but it sounded like one of those trashy bitches complaining about men cause they cant get laid.

i'm not a man hater, in all actuallity, i've been married 10 years and have a son.




as for a womans right to choose, i say it doesnt exist. democrats lay that out cause most women are pavlovian dogs, thinking that supporting abortion is hurting men somehow.


please tell me you aren't saying women wanted abortion legal to be able to hurt men? i'm speechless at the stupidity of that remark. who's hating who now?
 
curling said:


The only one I could see is possibly rape. Since the girl had no choice in the matter. The drug user get her fixed so she can never have kids. The teen she played not she has to pay. Her parents can help her raise it since they did such a wonderful job informing her about sex or she could give it up for abortion.



With the lines so long for couples wanting children I think adoption is a better choice.



I don't put it there it is just a reality. Men don't get pregnant women do. So if I was chick you better believe I would make the dude wear protection. Like I said her right was to say no before they had sex not to kill some baby because she was dumb.



Yes. I was with a few different chicks before I was married and I would always think of the consequences to the chick and to myself even if the chick was saying "cum in me" or some other wild sex talk. I wouldn't. I always thought guys were dumbasses that bust in chicks with out a condom. They should lose their right to have kids too. See I am not one sided.



I sure bet it would slow abortions down. Because then the chick is gambling with her life to instead of just killing her baby.

wow, you seem to have all the answers, email me your name and i'll write your name in the next time i vote.
 
thebabydoc said:
And pOink, no one said it was a human life when the woman chooses to be; it is the ability to eventually become a human life that counts in this argument. Once again, twisting the facts ever so slightly to suit your argument. But it won't work with me.

Then tell us, what is the definable criteria that give us this non-arbitrary cut off point of when a fetus becomes a "person".
 
thebabydoc said:
I guess that shows your ignorance. If I deliver 300 babies a year and I agree with abortion, is it possible I might be in a better position than you or some politician to comment and judge on its necessity and medical and moral implications?


Oh boy another doctor with a God complex.
 
thebabydoc said:
Oh my God. You did NOT just say that. You are either blinded by your "emotion" on this issue or just unbelievably ignorant and uneducated.

Wow, you showed me the ignorance of my ways. Could you please post that 3rd grade definition of 'Parasite' that you used before, I need a good laugh?
 
thebabydoc said:
I guess that shows your ignorance. If I deliver 300 babies a year and I agree with abortion, is it possible I might be in a better position than you or some politician to comment and judge on its necessity and medical and moral implications?

No. Please show us where experience is conditional for moral reasoning. So without experience in battle or fighting, a man cannot make the moral judgement to know when he must fight to protect life and property? Is this the type of reasoning used by minority advocates to pass laws preferring said minority, arguing that the majority cannot "understand the 'black, gay, latino, disabled, etc.' experience"?

Experience is not conditional for reasoning, it is only a tool for reasoning, but man does not have to reason at all. There are numerous cases in which it can be shown that experience does not correlate with reasoning. Politics is a great example.

What about rape? Incest? Genetic malformations? Non-viable defects? It's all so black-and-white for those of you who don't deal with this day in and day out. Pure blind ignorance. It's like arguing with SSAlexSS or 2Thick (whose absence of late is a welcome relief to intelligent life everywhere)

The first two are non-consentual therefore the woman has the law on her side to argue for the procedure, but she would have to prove her case, since this is a claim that societal laws have been violated and another is being implicated as being a criminal. I'm sure you can see how allowing this argument non-chalantly opens the flood gates to erroneous charges.

The third needs clarification. Genetic malformations does not define non-viability.

The latter also needs clarification, but is arguably acceptable, since there are conditions where the infant will not survive.

"Pro-Life" (e.g. anti-choice, free will, self-determination, etc...) always bases their arguments on INVALID and ERRONEOUS assumptions like "life begins at conception".

Since you have thrown around your argument that this argument is wrong, then please, with your medical wisdom, tell us why "life" does not begin at conception (I can't wait to hear this, since this is basic biology).

Do me a favor. Anyone AND I MEAN ANYONE post up Webster's (or any other LEGITIMATE) definition of "Parasite".

I already gave you the real definition. For a supposed doctor, your's was pathetic.
 
I'm against abortion because I wouldn;t want it done to me. I'm glad my Mom had me.

However, I am also against the government telling anyone how to do anything with their bodies or their personal lives.

Where did the ideology that thinks the government knows best and should be telling other people what to do come from?

Maybe if we all just left each other's business alone the world would be a better place.
 
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atlantabiolab said:


Then tell us, what is the definable criteria that give us this non-arbitrary cut off point of when a fetus becomes a "person".

This could be twisted to the benefit of either debater's belief.

1 - Conception?
2 - Full or near full term pregnancy with vaginal or c-section birth?
3 - Survival of a premature delivery?
4 - When you get a social security #? (or the like)


Clearly an eight week old fetus could not live outside the mother's womb but what about between the 16th-20th weeks?
(2nd Trimester and roughly 4 oz (16 weeks) to 1/2 -1 lb (20 weeks)


It could be argued to death and as we all know it has been and will continue to be argued.

Which came first the chicken or the egg?
 
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atlantabiolab said:


What the fuck?!?!? Did you write this up yourself?? This is the layman term, similar to "Human. Others that look like me.", but this is far from the real definition of Parasite. Try and take a look at a real defining of "parasitism" and attempt to understand why a fetus NEVER qualifies as a parasite.



This comes from the University of Pennsylvannia Department of Parasitology, does this surpass your pathetic definition...I think so. By your weak reasoning a whale is a fish, cause it swims in the water. No scientist worth their weight would ever define progeny as parasites, since it infers that progeny are detrimental to a species.

but if you were not to look at the species as a whole but the individual, regardless of whether it is a method of species propagation or not, the pregnant women has something inside her growing, and it is a 1 way relationsip in that she gets nothing from it where as it uses everything else. pregnancy can be argued in all the other points as opposed to point one as being a parasite, so in terms of its effect on the mother and not the species it is essentially parasitic in its nature/actions if not in its overall outcome

in this regards his point is valid, as it shows that something may very well be using the mothers own body against her will. now you can argue the specifics of the definition parasite but it doesnt change the context of this arguement, of course no-one would actually think a baby is ACTUALLY defined a parasite


atlantabiolab said:


You would do well to stop throwing around the idea that simply because you are a medical professional, that you are the bearer of all knowledge, since you are not living up to your assertions. As if Doctors ever lived up to the level of true scientists.

:confused: :rolleyes: :confused:

many outside the medical profession will have a stance on these issues, but those insode the profession and those that have experienced these events may have a better understanding simply becaue they know the whole story.....

some may not comprehend what will happen to a baby if it gets infected with a virus the mum had....or the horror a women feels as her rapists 'seed' grows inside her etc.....i understand his comment to mean that he is perhaps better qualified than others to answer this question, but i dont think he says he is the bearer of all knowledge, or that he is better qualified than others to make moral judgements as his morality is somehow upgraded
 
atlantabiolab said:


No. Please show us where experience is conditional for moral reasoning. So without experience in battle or fighting, a man cannot make the moral judgement to know when he must fight to protect life and property? Is this the type of reasoning used by minority advocates to pass laws preferring said minority, arguing that the majority cannot "understand the 'black, gay, latino, disabled, etc.' experience"?

Experience is not conditional for reasoning, it is only a tool for reasoning, but man does not have to reason at all. There are numerous cases in which it can be shown that experience does not correlate with reasoning. Politics is a great example.


people's moral stances on subjects are shaped in part by their experiences...asking someone what their stance is on abortion before and after they have been raped for example. blanket laws on what people can choose to do with their body worry me, the government shouldnt be able to dictate that unless it can be proven it is severely detrimental towards others

doctors are also fully aware that this can work the other way (i.e. ask the raped women what she feels about the death penalty)...reviewing the worth of medical research is done with a full range of scientists, doctors and lay persons being involved on the panel for example. but i think its fair to say someone who has been exposed to the p[roblem and is fully aware of the facts is perhaps better informed.

atlantabiolab said:


Since you have thrown around your argument that this argument is wrong, then please, with your medical wisdom, tell us why "life" does not begin at conception (I can't wait to hear this, since this is basic biology).

I already gave you the real definition. For a supposed doctor, your's was pathetic.

im sure you knew he meant sentient life.:rolleyes:

the arguement being an undifferentiated ball of cells not being self aware
 
danielson said:



people's moral stances on subjects are shaped in part by their experiences...asking someone what their stance is on abortion before and after they have been raped for example. blanket laws on what people can choose to do with their body worry me, the government shouldnt be able to dictate that unless it can be proven it is severely detrimental towards others

Your argument is the definition of subjectivism. You think that reality is shaped by an individual's ideas, instead of the other way around. Something is true, if the concept agrees to the observations of reality. Science would not function if reality was shaped by each individual's thoughts. 2+2 always equals 4 because it agrees to reality.

Your argument would state that one cannot know that being shot is bad, if one has never been shot. Disregard abortion for a second, can we state that murder, as defined as the killing of a person, unlawfully, is immoral? Does it matter that I have never been murdered, have never had one attempt to murder me, and have never had a loved one murdered? Can I still with reason, determine that murder is bad? Does a murderer have a different moral code since he has murdered? Can a murderer state that non-murderer's law does not apply to him, since they have never murdered?

The crux of most pro-abortion arguments is emotion, simply because one can argue that the person obtaining the abortion may feel grief or regret or pain, that somehow they are not subject to moral law. What other laws do we disregard if the person can state that while they were breaking the law they didn't feel good?

doctors are also fully aware that this can work the other way (i.e. ask the raped women what she feels about the death penalty)...reviewing the worth of medical research is done with a full range of scientists, doctors and lay persons being involved on the panel for example. but i think its fair to say someone who has been exposed to the p[roblem and is fully aware of the facts is perhaps better informed.

And how in the hell does a doctor infer more about this subject than anyone else? Is it that hard to sympathize with humans? Do you even have a clue that all philosophy derives from men who generally did not have formal training in their subjects? Through shear reasoning they attempted to derive concepts about the observable reality.



im sure you knew he meant sentient life.:rolleyes:

the arguement being an undifferentiated ball of cells not being self aware

You must be joking? Self-awareness is a progressive trait of humans. We are not instinctual creatures, we must sense the world and learn from it. Your argument does not elaborate, and never will, on why it is not OK to kill a newborn. They are not autonomous, they are not self-sufficient, but they are self-aware, just as has been shown of unborns, who are developing self-awareness of their surroundings. All pro-abortion arguments derive from the simple disregard of reality, that somehow what is covered by skin, fat and uterus, is not real, but what is exposed to air is real. They utilize the concept of spontaneous generation.

but if you were not to look at the species as a whole but the individual, regardless of whether it is a method of species propagation or not, the pregnant women has something inside her growing, and it is a 1 way relationsip in that she gets nothing from it where as it uses everything else. pregnancy can be argued in all the other points as opposed to point one as being a parasite, so in terms of its effect on the mother and not the species it is essentially parasitic in its nature/actions if not in its overall outcome

in this regards his point is valid, as it shows that something may very well be using the mothers own body against her will. now you can argue the specifics of the definition parasite but it doesnt change the context of this arguement, of course no-one would actually think a baby is ACTUALLY defined a parasite

Do you really wish to use the argument of "parasite" as justification of abortion? Hitler used this reasoning to enslave and murder millions of people with this same concept. If metaphorical parasitism is a justification, then why not apply it more, say to newborns, who totally dependant on the actions of another, or to welfare recipients, who derive their existence from the productivity of others.
 
thebabydoc said:
Yet another twisting of words and fact for effect. your definition of abortion (killing of a human) is completely wrong, biased, and baseless and therefore eliminates any claim you may have to "expertise" (which by your own accord only consists of knowing how to kill)


I read this from the Abortion Facts page...


"The abortionist stabs the scissors into the base of the baby’s skull. The scissors are spread to enlarge the opening. The suction catheter is then inserted and the brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The head slides out easily."

9313pb_c.jpg
 
thebabydoc said:
This is my point exactly.

p0ink: "And guess what (ultra right-wing conservatives)? It won't work." refers to those who think they're gonna do an end-around Roe v. Wade with this pile of manure.

Politicians and conservatives and religious zealots need to stop telling citizens what they can't and can do with their bodies and physicians how to practice medicine because, truth is, educationally and intellectually, they're just not in the position to do so.

sigh.

Folks, a "partial birth abortion" refers to a procedure that is done WHEN THE BABY?FETUS?WHATEVER IS ALREADY DEAD OR DYING. No-one, and I mean no-one, has a discretionary ABORTION at 7 months.

I am militantly pro-abortion (let's not get into ar argument about this). BUT THIS PARTICULAR PROCEDURE IS RARE, AND ONLY, THAT'S RIGHT ONLY, SANCTIONNED IN THE CASE WHERE THE BABY IS DEAD INSIDE THE MOTHER OR ABOUT TO DIE. In my view, I wouldn't allow an abortion for discretionary reasona at 7 months either, she's had plenty of time to make her mind up at that point.

It's done because some women find the prospect of being induced too emotionally painful to bear - remember, these are babies that are wanted, planned and being carried to term. And in some cases, being induced can have risks of death for the mother (ask a doc for the details).

My cousin was induced, as her first born died inside her 2 days before the due date. Howver, the induction did not carry any risk to her personally. No woman who has this kind of abortion has it because she "doesn't want" the baby. It is done only when the fetus is dead, or so grossly deformed that its life expectancy is appro 30 mins. Seriously, get your facts straight. And have some sympathy for women whose babies die a month before they are due to be born. Can you imagine what it must feel like to carry one inside you for 8 months and then for it to DIE while STILL INSIDE YOU? Sheesh.

Now, they will do a c-section instead, but it's a procedure with more possibility of complications. Remember, at this point, the baby is pretty much dead folks.
 
You know what's funny.........Abortion is illegal in Brazil yet 2xs as many abortions are performed each year than in the US.

Yes I'm pro-choice.
 
p0ink said:


in all reality, im not 'pro-life' or 'pro-choice'. truth be told, i really dont care at all. abortions for everybody, so long as i (the taxpayer) dont get stuck paying for it.

i just enjoy being a thorn in the side of feminists, because i am getting sick and tired of their shit, and the general 'pass' females get in real life. how come they can have an abortion? how come they can get lipo/boob jobs/etc, but if a guy uses hormones to aid him in getting in shape, he can go to jail?

the less legislation, the better; no matter what it may involve.

Shit I don't believe it I'm agreeing with Poink! I think folks should be allowed to buy any substance they choose. Just make sure they get educated on its safe use, and no-one will suffer too many problems.

Yup, I favour legalisation of hard drugs too.

BTW Poink, I am a feminist, but I don't support shit like maternity leave after the first child (make yp your mind if you wanna work or stay at home dammit), "lactation breaks" (pump on your 10 min break like everyone else), "flexible schedules for the childed only" (coz those of us with no kids end up with the shitty shifts) and all the other crap.

REAL feminists want the SAME treatment as men in the workplace. As in, no whining for special treatment. No complaining that working hard ain't fun. No no wanting to leave early every day coz I need to pick lil' Johnny up from daycare... WHY OH WHY do "women's issues" always involve things to do with reproduction and kids.

Men have families too, dammit, and not all women spend their lives running round after a bevy of brats. (me for instance). I don't want some guy thinking that if he gives me a job I'll be a whiny-ass cow wanting special treatment and fucking off to extended leave within 6 months of joining. argh.
 
p0ink said:


oh, i see how it is. it is the 'woman's baby' and the 'woman's choice' when it comes to an abortion, but when the bills start coming in, it becomes the man's problem as well.

just ring the bell and take money.

thanks for clearing that up for me.

I know you are not comparing rasing a child for 18 years to paying money each month.
 
circusgirl said:


Shit I don't believe it I'm agreeing with Poink! I think folks should be allowed to buy any substance they choose. Just make sure they get educated on its safe use, and no-one will suffer too many problems.

Yup, I favour legalisation of hard drugs too.

BTW Poink, I am a feminist, but I don't support shit like maternity leave after the first child (make yp your mind if you wanna work or stay at home dammit), "lactation breaks" (pump on your 10 min break like everyone else), "flexible schedules for the childed only" (coz those of us with no kids end up with the shitty shifts) and all the other crap.

REAL feminists want the SAME treatment as men in the workplace. As in, no whining for special treatment. No complaining that working hard ain't fun. No no wanting to leave early every day coz I need to pick lil' Johnny up from daycare... WHY OH WHY do "women's issues" always involve things to do with reproduction and kids.

Men have families too, dammit, and not all women spend their lives running round after a bevy of brats. (me for instance). I don't want some guy thinking that if he gives me a job I'll be a whiny-ass cow wanting special treatment and fucking off to extended leave within 6 months of joining. argh.

So you have to choose to either be a stay at home mom or work? You have to have maternity leave becuase daycare will not take a child under 6 weeks in most cases.

Bevy of Brats.................shitty choice of words IMO
 
circusgirl said:


sigh.

Folks, a "partial birth abortion" refers to a procedure that is done WHEN THE BABY?FETUS?WHATEVER IS ALREADY DEAD OR DYING. No-one, and I mean no-one, has a discretionary ABORTION at 7 months.

I am militantly pro-abortion (let's not get into ar argument about this). BUT THIS PARTICULAR PROCEDURE IS RARE, AND ONLY, THAT'S RIGHT ONLY, SANCTIONNED IN THE CASE WHERE THE BABY IS DEAD INSIDE THE MOTHER OR ABOUT TO DIE. In my view, I wouldn't allow an abortion for discretionary reasona at 7 months either, she's had plenty of time to make her mind up at that point.

It's done because some women find the prospect of being induced too emotionally painful to bear - remember, these are babies that are wanted, planned and being carried to term. And in some cases, being induced can have risks of death for the mother (ask a doc for the details).

My cousin was induced, as her first born died inside her 2 days before the due date. Howver, the induction did not carry any risk to her personally. No woman who has this kind of abortion has it because she "doesn't want" the baby. It is done only when the fetus is dead, or so grossly deformed that its life expectancy is appro 30 mins. Seriously, get your facts straight. And have some sympathy for women whose babies die a month before they are due to be born. Can you imagine what it must feel like to carry one inside you for 8 months and then for it to DIE while STILL INSIDE YOU? Sheesh.

Now, they will do a c-section instead, but it's a procedure with more possibility of complications. Remember, at this point, the baby is pretty much dead folks.

Good post. Now the woman has to have a c-section and that scar is going to be a constant reminder of the child she lost.
 
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