NEWBIE don't be afraid of Tren!!

[Realgains]

I am not "blowing my own horn" but 40 year old Realgains has been "around the block" a few times.

I am sick and tired of hearing all the crap that is spouted off about Trenbolone acetate being harsh and also toxic for the kidneys. This is simply NOT TRUE!

Tren is a great hormone and it is safer and LESS harsh than d-dol or anadrol. Yes it is a very potent roid and it is actually more potent PER MG than any other hormone BUT we don't inject 2 grams per week now do we.

BTW the kidney toxicity MYTH was started years ago by the late Dan Duchaine and it has no substance at all. If something goes wrong with a bro while on tren many will automatically point a finger at tren when in reality the culprit could be another hormone or another issue altogether, like unsterile gear causing kidney injections which leeds to pissing blood.

Here is a cheap and effective cycle and it could easily be done by a newbie. The newbie needs to get hands on instruction from a friend in regard to injections. The newbie needs to know HOW to inject and WHERE to inject, alternating upper outer glutes with lateral mid thigh.

Use a 27-29 pin and an insulin syringe and it is no harder than popping a d-bol. NO BULL.

Tren 50-75 per day for 6 weeks. Proviron 50mg twice per day for sex drive. You don't need anything for sex drive if you don't mind MR. Happy going to sleep for a while( some guys don't mind this) Also I know some men that do not get impotent while on moderate doses of tren .

Proviron may aslo help the cycle since it strongly binds with plasma binding proteins and this will leave more tren in an unbound state. Three days after the last shot hit the clomid hard with a front load of 300 mg on day one in divided doses. Then continue with 50-100 mg per day for 10 more days and then 50 per day for another 10 days.
You will not need Nolvadex as tren does not aromatize. Tren can cause gyno BUT IT IS EXTREMELY rare and even rarer than moderate dose deca and that is pretty rare. In all my years I have know NOBODY that has gotten gyno off of tren and i know guys that use 150 per day. Often gyno is caused by the test that the bro is also on....but they say I took Nolva and it still continued...no kdding bro, it was too late!
Never the less there is a VERY slight chance that you will get gyno with tren so when you are in the shower rub your nipples with a soapy hand and if the very tips hurt then stop the tren. The tren will clear in three days and you will not get gyno.

Alterntively you can use a little test cyp or enanthate each week to keep the sex drive up. 200 per week is plenty. You won't need nolve with this dose. Stop the test after week 4 and continue with the tren through week 6.
The above is a very cheap cycle if you make your own tren...and that is fun too!

Eat like a starving man and consume at least 300 mg of protein per day and you will grow like a weed AND fat gain will be minimal since estrogen levels will not be high. This is a safe, sane, cheap and productive lean mass and great strength cycle.

 

[Willyumyum]

Great post bro, karma to you..

YUM

 

[40butpumpin]

Thanks for the info, Realgains. Very timely!

 

[TheBolt]

good post. Im glad someone hit the tren subject on a positive note for a change. Karma for you.....

 

[chronicx357]

is fina bad for hair loss? im going to be using it with dbol and omnadren so im a little worried? can i take finastride with it?

 

[onemind]

good post great info i just might use

 

[Realgains]

is fina bad for hair loss? im going to be using it with dbol and omnadren so im a little worried? can i take finastride with it?

Finasteride will do no good. It only works if the enzyme 5 alpha reductaze is envolved in converting the hormone to a stronger androgen. It works for Test, halo, methyltest. Boldenone and methandrostenolone also convert to stronger androgens via 5 alpha BUT to a VERY TINY degree so Finasteride really will not help.

All androgen, including nandrolone, will cause some hair loss if you have the genetics for hair loss. Look at your mothers father. If he is bald then you will be too...NO BULL. The gene is passed from the mothers side ONLY.

Tren is a potent androgen but not as potent as DHT from test. DHT is the absolute worst androgen for hair loss BAR NONE. Ten stays as tren at the scalp.... it does not convert to DHT at all.

Use topical spironolactone to block the tren at the scalp.....see my posts on hair loss solution.

 

[brutus_98]

Great post. I have had similar thoughts as well. It's nice to hear it coming from someone with allot of AAS experience.

 

[chronicx357]

Finasteride will do no good. It only works if the enzyme 5 alpha reductaze is envolved in converting the hormone to a stronger androgen. It works for Test, halo, methyltest. Boldenone and methandrostenolone also convert to stronger androgens via 5 alpha BUT to a VERY TINY degree so Finasteride really will not help.

All androgen, including nandrolone, will cause some hair loss if you have the genetics for hair loss. Look at your mothers father. If he is bald then you will be too...NO BULL. The gene is passed from the mothers side ONLY.

Tren is a potent androgen but not as potent as DHT from test. DHT is the absolute worst androgen for hair loss BAR NONE. Ten stays as tren at the scalp.... it does not convert to DHT at all.

Use topical spironolactone to block the tren at the scalp.....see my posts on hair loss solution.

it would still be benificial to take it during that cycle because of the omnadren though, right?

 

[bwood]

good post

 

[Realgains]

For the more aggressive newbie 500 of test cyp or enanthate per week will really improve on the above cycle. You better have nolvadex on hand though, or half a tab of arimidex per day.

If you add the test in this larger dose then run it for the same 4 weeks. Front load 600 on day one and then do biweekly injections starting three days later at 250. This is a mild front load yet it will really help get the test up and running quickly. Who the heck needs toxic d-bol to kick start a cycle he he he

You could extend the cycle to 6 weeks of tren/test and then stop both and hit the clomid 14 day latter.

OR for the ultimate...... .you could stop the test after week 6 and continue with the tren through week 8 and hit clomid three days latter. This will "harden" you up since during the two weeks without test you will loose the water gain from the test yet you will continue to build lean mass due to the tren. You won't get much bloat while on arimidex and even the Nolav helps a little here.

The last cycle here will likely get ya 20-25 pounds if you are not at your natural limit and you should keep about 20 of that IF you recover natural test levels quickly......do the clomid like I planned it. If you have been lifting for years and are stuck at your natural limit then you should keep about 15 pounds of muscle, maybe a bit more, with this cycle and a lot of strength and that is really great.

NOBODY really ever needs any hormones other than TREN and TEST. This is the ultimate dual bar none.

 

[scarylarry]

Realgains that was an excellent post, thanks for the info. I am about to make fina with a kit (animals) and was wondering if you or anyone else for the matter has any last words of advice that I could use in preparing the fina itself ie, tips or shortcuts. Thanks.

 

[Realgains]

it would still be benificial to take it during that cycle because of the omnadren though, right?

YES bro YES....but topical spiro and Nizorol shampoo will work just as good and even better for some.

 

[blaster220]

Tren was the first compound I ever used, and I don't regret it

I'll be posting a write up once my current cycle wraps up, along with before and after pics/stats.

 

[steelhdman]

So what is the solution to get rid of puffy nipples someone got from tren at 50 mg/day then? Must not be gyno, puffy nipples are nothing to worry about right? Even when they dont go away after 3 months.

 

[Realgains]

Realgains that was an excellent post, thanks for the info. I am about to make fina with a kit (animals) and was wondering if you or anyone else for the matter has any last words of advice that I could use in preparing the fina itself ie, tips or shortcuts. Thanks.

YES.........don't make it stronger per mg....stick with the 75mg per ml formula. 100 per ml is a little painful due to the higher Benzyl alcohol concentration and 150 hurts like crazy.

BTW....check out my "You don't need a fina kit post"

 

[G-Man]

Realgains!!!!

Hey Realgains do you think i will get that much bloat from 200mg of Test with the Tren? I'm going to be doing 50mg ED Winny\and 80mg of Fina ED. I do not have any Nolva on hand but i do have Clomid. So i want to keep my sex drive up so i could take the Test but i do not want any water gain. Thanks!!

G-Man

 

[Realgains]

Re: Realgains!!!!

Hey Realgains do you think i will get that much bloat from 200mg of Test with the Tren? I'm going to be doing 50mg ED Winny\and 80mg of Fina ED. I do not have any Nolva on hand but i do have Clomid. So i want to keep my sex drive up so i could take the Test but i do not want any water gain. Thanks!!

G-Man

You will not get much if any bloat from 200. You could take the Nolva at 20mg per day..... it will help if you do get some bloat but more importantly Tamoxifen acts as an estrogen at the liver and helps keep cholesterol down and hdl up while on 17 aa roids like Winny.

 

[Realgains]

So what is the solution to get rid of puffy nipples someone got from tren at 50 mg/day then? Must not be gyno, puffy nipples are nothing to worry about right? Even when they dont go away after 3 months.

I had gyno and I am also an OR nurse that operates on gyno .

Gyno is breast tissue ....HARD STUFF under the nipple. Puffy nipples?....I don't know about that really but I doubt if it is gyno. If you were going to get breast tissue then you would have already gotten lumps bro.


BTW gyno surgery is a snap and leaves a very tiny scar along the lower nipple line that you cannot see unless you look very closely.

 

[young guns]

hair loss is not passed from the mothers side only, it's not sex linked. i don't claim to be an expert on this, but i just finished taking a genetics class. it's an autosomal trait, pass from both parents. in males, it's dominant (1 or 2 copies and you;'ll experience hair loss), while in females its recessive (must have both copies of the allele), so it's sex influenced but not sex linked. the degree of hair loss, age it starts, ect. are affected by many other factors, not just the allele for hair loss. so just by looking at your mothers father doesn't guarantee you will or won't suffer hair loss. and the susceptibility depends on alot more than just waht your grandpa looks like.

as far as taking finasteride with tren , there was a big debate on whether tren is deactivated by 5ar enzyme. it is definitely not converted to DHT, but some believe it is converted to a weaker form, like nandrolone is converted to DHN. i don't know if a conclusion if it is or isn't was ever reached, but if it is deactivated by it, then stopping deactivation would be a bad idea (much like taking finasteride with deca). like realgains said, topical spiro, nizoral, and maybe some other topical stuff would be good, but stay away from the 5ar inhibitors (finasteride, alazeic acid, saw palmetto) unless you know for sure tren is not affected by 5ar enzyme.

as far as finasteride with boldenone, it couldn't hurt. like realgains said, it's only 5alpha reduced to a small degree, but the finasteride would help with this. boldenone is instead mostly 5beta reduced. i have no clue on the tissue distribution of the 5beta reductase enzyme, or whether or not it converts boldenone to a stronger or weaker androgen. but from what i've seen, most people don't have major hair loss problems with boldenone.

 

[shifti]

starting my next cycle on monday test enant 1-10 and fina 6-10 ill see how it goes

 

[young guns]

realgains - do you know insurance are in general about gyno surgery, is it considered cosmetic or what?

 

[Realgains]

realgains - do you know insurance are in general about gyno surgery, is it considered cosmetic or what?

No prob with the insurance issue....just don't tell your doc that you have been on juice as he will chart that and if the insurance company ever finds out then they will not pay.

Gyno can be caused by other things like smoking pot(prolactin I think) or by drinking a lot(reduces test)

 

[bigfatty]

oh oh.... i'm a pot smoking fina slamming mofo! (no gyno here, yet)

 

[40butpumpin]

Realgains would you have any suggestions/advice if I wanted to run the tren with test prop? Thanks for any help.

 

[Realgains]

Realgains would you have any suggestions/advice if I wanted to run the tren with test prop? Thanks for any help.

Prop and tren is great too. Inject every day for best results. Try 100 of prop and 50-75 of tren every day. Get some arimidex and take half a pill to a full pill every day. Personally I would include 20 of Nolvadex with it because the use of estrogen inhibitors really screws up total serum cholesterol and hdl. The Tamoxifen acts as an estrogen in the liver and really helps a lot in this regard.

Alternatively you could do a two week cycle....believe me they work if ya know what and how to use.

Try this.....prop 250 on day one followed by 100 per day. Stop after day 10. Tren 150 on day one then 75 per day. Stop the tren after day11. You could add d-bol to the mix too at 50 per day in five divided doses and stop the d-bol after day 14 pm dose. You could also just use the d-bol for days 11, 12, 13 and 14. Use one half to one full tab of arimidex even without the d-bol. Front loading is a MUST with a two week cycle! Hit the clomid on day 15.

The nice thing about the two week cycle is this.......in a two week cycle only the hypothalamus is inhibited. The pituitary doesn't go to sleep until after about 18 days. This means that your natural test productiion will come back VERY rapidly. Not only that but you will have little to no sides as the cycle length is too short.

 

[40butpumpin]

Realgains, thanks for this, it's exactly what I was looking for. Wow, I didn't realize that Arimidex messed with the cholesterol that much. I take mega doses of TMG, Folic Acid, B6 and B12 which all should help with my homocysteine and LDL levels. That would suck to lose my HDL, it's a real concern of mine. I don't mean to detract from the focus of this great thread, however, I read something about Nolvadex recently that makes me hesitant about using it. It's listed as a drug that could cause something called prolonged QT interval syndrome and/or Torsades de Pointes. If you're interested you can check this site out http://www.torsades.org/ under "N." In any case, I'd rather not take Tamoxifen. I had a bout with a drug recently that could have given me this, it didn't, but I ran across this in my research. There's also something called Policosanol (see www.lef.org) that supposed to help serum and HDL, maybe I'll hit that up. But I've got enough Virormone to take your advice exactly so I'll keep you posted. Again, thanks much for this!

40

 

[jboldman]

I'm not sure if toxicity is the word that I am looking for but what few studies there are out there(animal mostly) do show that tren causes an increase in organ weight in the prostate , liver, and kidneys, I am guessing that this is not a good thing. Nandi needs to get the credit for posting the studies over on trieda, I can repost them i suppose if anyone wants to look. i would hate anyone to think that they can take tren without fear of any negative side effects. Having said all of that, i take tren and include it in every cycle. I have tried eod, ed, 2xed, in a variety of dose strengths up to 200mg/day and have not suffered any serious side effects that I know of other than a bad temper. I do notice that the rash of folks reporting bad sides have popped up after the rule of thumb recommendations started being 50-100mg ed dosing. My recommendation for a beginner would be 75mg eod for two weeks, if no sides than up the dose to 75mg ed to see how it goes. Listen to your body, there is no rush here. I would also recommend 500mg of test/wk along with the tren and would not recommend any anti-e's unless you need them since tren is synergistic with estrogen for muscle growth probably due to the increased igf-1 from the estrogen. If you watch your diet that should control bloat and have nolvadex on hand for gyno(unlikely but possible) you should have no problems. Save the arimidex for when you need it since it is so expensive.
YMMV, like I said this is my opinion based on my experience.

jb

 

[Realgains]

Realgains, thanks for this, it's exactly what I was looking for. Wow, I didn't realize that Arimidex messed with the cholesterol that much. I take mega doses of TMG, Folic Acid, B6 and B12 which all should help with my homocysteine and LDL levels. That would suck to lose my HDL, it's a real concern of mine. I don't mean to detract from the focus of this great thread, however, I read something about Nolvadex recently that makes me hesitant about using it. It's listed as a drug that could cause something called prolonged QT interval syndrome and/or Torsades de Pointes. If you're interested you can check this site out http://www.torsades.org/ under "N." In any case, I'd rather not take Tamoxifen. I had a bout with a drug recently that could have given me this, it didn't, but I ran across this in my research. There's also something called Policosanol (see www.lef.org) that supposed to help serum and HDL, maybe I'll hit that up. But I've got enough Virormone to take your advice exactly so I'll keep you posted. Again, thanks much for this!

40

Thousands of ladies take Tamoxifen around the world with no sides at all. Some cardiologists are giving it to men as well and with good results. If cardiac conduction problems are an issue then it would have been made very clear by now.
I really would not worry about what you have read. Besides bro a prolonged QR interval is no big deal if cardiac disease is not present. .

The only good way to keep total serum cholesterol down and especially HDL up while "on" 17 aa roids and especially estrogen inhibitors is to substitute an estrogen in the liver. Both Clomid and nolva act as estrogens in the liver and it is this estrogen that is protective.
Bill Roberts has had good results from using clomid during a cycle for this reason.
If you decide to stay away from Nolvadex and are really concerned with hdl and total cholesterol then do not use ANY 17aa roids or any estrogen inhibitors. Colmid could be your other choice though but clomid and Nolvadex are almost exactly the same.

As you probably already know the following dietary changes can help with the hdl/ldl issue.........avoid trans fatty acids, that is ALL cooking oils except cold pressed olive oil and a little butter. Margine is loaded with trans fats. Eat plenty of omega 6 and especailly omega 3 oils ie: salmon, tuna and oil supplements. Never fry anything with butter or olive oil above 250 degree F.
Avoid saturated fat like the plague(animal fat)
Avoid anything that has partially hydrogenated oil or vegetable oil shortening(trans fats)
Limit total cholesterol intake although saturated fat is way worse.

 

[Realgains]

I'm not sure if toxicity is the word that I am looking for but what few studies there are out there(animal mostly) do show that tren causes an increase in organ weight in the prostate , liver, and kidneys, I am guessing that this is not a good thing. Nandi needs to get the credit for posting the studies over on trieda, I can repost them i suppose if anyone wants to look. i would hate anyone to think that they can take tren without fear of any negative side effects. Having said all of that, i take tren and include it in every cycle. I have tried eod, ed, 2xed, in a variety of dose strengths up to 200mg/day and have not suffered any serious side effects that I know of other than a bad temper. I do notice that the rash of folks reporting bad sides have popped up after the rule of thumb recommendations started being 50-100mg ed dosing. My recommendation for a beginner would be 75mg eod for two weeks, if no sides than up the dose to 75mg ed to see how it goes. Listen to your body, there is no rush here. I would also recommend 500mg of test/wk along with the tren and would not recommend any anti-e's unless you need them since tren is synergistic with estrogen for muscle growth probably due to the increased igf-1 from the estrogen. If you watch your diet that should control bloat and have nolvadex on hand for gyno(unlikely but possible) you should have no problems. Save the arimidex for when you need it since it is so expensive.
YMMV, like I said this is my opinion based on my experience.

jb

My guess would be that if tren causes increase in organ weight then all steroids do too. In fact I have heard that steroids can cause increase in organ weight and especially an enlarged heart if used very long term in large doses. This is very old knowledge....I am going back to the late 1970's.

 

[HighIntensity]

RG-

this is what I have been saying all along, and why im doing a 14 week cycle of tren...

 

[40butpumpin]

Thousands of ladies take Tamoxifen around the world with no sides at all. Some cardiologists are giving it to men as well and with good results. If cardiac conduction problems are an issue then it would have been made very clear by now.
I really would not worry about what you have read. If it does happen it is so rare that it isn't even listed as a side in the PDR.

The only good way to keep total serum cholesterol down and especially HDL up while "on" 17 aa roids and especially estrogen inhibitors is to substitute an estrogen in the liver. Both Clomid and nolva act as estrogens in the liver and it is this estrogen that is protective.
Bill Roberts has had good results from using clomid during a cycle for this reason.
If you decide to stay away from Nolvadex and are really concerned with hdl and total cholesterol then do not use ANY 17aa roids or any estrogen inhibitors. Colmid could be your other choice though but clomid and Nolvadex are almost exactly the same.

As you probably already know the following dietary changes can help with the hdl/ldl issue.........avoid trans fatty acids, that is ALL cooking oils except cold pressed olive oil and a little butter. Margine is loaded with trans fats. Eat plenty of omega 6 and especailly omega 3 oils ie: salmon, tuna and oil supplements. Never fry anything with butter or olive oil above 250 degree F.
Avoid saturated fat like the plague(animal fat)
Avoid anything that has partially hydrogenated oil or vegetable oil shortening(trans fats)
Limit total cholesterol intake although saturated fat is way worse.

EXCELLENT points, help and information. As far as the diet, I'm with you already, I take huge amounts of EFA's and avoid saturated fats like the plague. Just gotta get my hands on some Clomid now....Argh! lol Thanks for taking the time to help me out, huge Karma for you brother.

 

[Realgains]

RG-

this is what I have been saying all along, and why im doing a 14 week cycle of tren...

Here is a tip for those like you that go on long cycles.......
use H C G at 500 iu's every day the last two weeks of your cycle.......your nuts will shrink a lot from 14 weeks of tren and then they will not respond as quickly as they could to LH. Get the boys up to snuff before the cycle ends and then hit the clomid hard and long. Fast recovery is more important than big gains during a cycle.

 

[HighIntensity]

Here is a tip for those like you that go on long cycles.......
use H C G at 500 iu's every day the last two weeks of your cycle.......your nuts will shrink a lot from 14 weeks of tren and then they will not respond as quickly as they could to LH. Get the boys up to snuff before the cycle ends and then hit the clomid hard and long. Fast recovery is more important than big gains during a cycle.

I hear ya, but HCG is dirty stuff...Im going to try maca in high doses 2 weeks before I end tren. Then its time to throw clomid and the kitchen sink at the little fellas to bring em home'

keep in mind while my cycle is long im only doing 75mgs EOD

 

[Realgains]

I hear ya, but HCG is dirty stuff...Im going to try maca in high doses 2 weeks before I end tren. Then its time to throw clomid and the kitchen sink at the little fellas to bring em home'

keep in mind while my cycle is long im only doing 75mgs EOD

I don't know bro....H C G is used a lot by docs and users.. But good luck with your plans

 

[young guns]

No prob with the insurance issue....just don't tell your doc that you have been on juice as he will chart that and if the insurance company ever finds out then they will not pay.

i've never done a cycle and i've never smoked pot, but i did a fair share of drinking last year when i got the problem (but 2 days of hard partyin a week is still less than alot of college students), so maybe that had something to do with it. but in my case, insurance should cover it right? by the way i was takin methoxygen for about 3 weeks when i noticed the problem startin, so even though thats supposed to be nonhormonal it may have had some effect on that too (according to my uncle who is a doc suppressing cortisol too much could lead to gyno indirectly). but like i said, never done any steroids or prohormones for that matter, unless you count the methoxygen which has androtriol and tribulus.

 

[bodybuildr]

Fina Rocks !!!

 

[solidspine]

Realgains

Do you buy Tren or make your own fina?

 

[Realgains]

Realgains

Do you buy Tren or make your own fina?

Make it without a kit.....no need for a kit. See my post...."you don't need a fina kit bro's".

Have used kits in the past though and they are all just fine.

 

[bighead]

You definitely deserve some karma for this thread Realgains

karma to you my friend!

 

[barbell265]

good post Realgains

Excellent post Bro'!! I did a fina cycle for 8 wks, first in 5 years for any gear. Made it myself and had a good time with it!! Gains were tremendous over the 8 weeks, I was very impressed! Now three weeks post cycle I have lost some BW and some off the top of my bench but no one seems to have noticed any major size loss, and I don't think it's too bad. I would love to have kept it all but ohh well!!

Any way, good post I agree with your take on tren!

 

[decadense]

Are all the people who have reported darkened urine and lower back pain crazy or just lying?

 

[Realgains]

Are all the people who have reported darkened urine and lower back pain crazy or just lying?

Many things can cause this and the most common is a kidney injection from unsterile gear and or pins used more than once.

Now where exactly is kidney pain?....it is NOT in the low back bro's. Kidney pain is quite high up on the flank and almost to the sides. Often this kidney pain is no more than low back pumps that you usually get while on many types of gear. They get the terrible low back pain/pump and they say that it has to be the tren causing kidney pain.

If these people did ONLY tren and they where absolutely sure of the sterilty of the tren then they may have a case. In most cases that I have heard about the bro has used other gear along with the tren and they where not 100% sure of sterility because they used vet gear or home made tren.
A person needs to be sure that their gear is sterile if he is using vet gear or home made tren. The only way to be sure is to pasturize the stuff yourself. Filtering and the Benzyl alcohol does not always get all the bugs.
This is how.....take some air out of the vials. Then place them in a water bath and pasturize at 160 degree F for 30 minutes. Use a candy thermometer to keep the heat constant.($3) An electric frying pan and or deep fat fryer works best. DO NOT bake the tren at 250 degrees F. Bill Roberts and a good friend of mine, who is a steroid using pathologist ,both say that it will damage the hormone...too high!

BTW many bros have had darkening urine and so called kidney pain on all sort of gear. Remenber if you take a lot of vitimans while "on" then your urine will certainly be darker. Also you may not be drinking enough water.

 

[decadense]

Bill Roberts has also stated that kidney damage from tren is a myth. But he just based that on published studies. Kind of an armchair expert if you ask me.

 

[Realgains]

Bill Roberts has also stated that kidney damage from tren is a myth. But he just based that on published studies. Kind of an armchair expert if you ask me.

Bro you don't know Bill Roberts do you? Bill has been doing gear for many many years and he is a walking steroid internet. He loves tren and has used it many many times. He has also personally coached many bro's including pro's

He is far from an arm chair expert bro

 

[decadense]

Bro you don't know Bill Roberts do you? Bill has been doing gear for many many years and he is a walking steroid internet. He loves tren and has used it many many times. He has also personally coached many bro's including pro's

He is far from an arm chair expert bro

I apologize.

 

[the UNDERTAKER]

ok realgains......you changed my opinion on tren. which was exactly that- literature fed opinion. but haven't people done 50-75 mg eod also or am i dreaming?? and to you NEWBIE tren users how is tren as related to cns stimulation??? that is my main concern????------------------and great post bro!!!

 

[Realgains]

ok realgains......you changed my opinion on tren. which was exactly that- literature fed opinion. but haven't people done 50-75 mg eod also or am i dreaming?? and to you NEWBIE tren users how is tren as related to cns stimulation??? that is my main concern????------------------and great post bro!!!

75 every other day will work but daily will work better. I strongly recommend daily injections and with a 27 or even 29 pin and an insulin syringe it is a breeze. (you can get these pins 1.5 inches long for the glutes)
There really is no need to go over 75 per day as this amount will fully saturate androgen receptors....even 50 is great. The odd guy will find that 100 works best but these bro's are rare. Usually 100 gives no better results than 75.
.
Tren has great CNS stimulation but not to the point of causing problems.

 

[Silent Method]

Thousands of ladies take Tamoxifen around the world with no sides at all.

Not true. I have a limited understanding regarding this, but, in some tissues, tamoxifen activates the estrogen receptor much the same way that estrogen does. Women with uterine cancer can't touch nolvadex, and doctors shy away from using it with women who may be "predisposed" to uterine cancer.

I have no idea if tamoxifen has "estrogenic" effects in any male tissues.

However, other than these possibilites, I feel nolvadex is perfectly safe to use for our purposes.


BTW, other than this minor point, I like the info in this thread. Karma for Realgains. I'm a step closer to my first fina cycle!

 

[Realgains]

Not true. I have a limited understanding regarding this, but, in some tissues, tamoxifen activates the estrogen receptor much the same way that estrogen does. Women with uterine cancer can't touch nolvadex, and doctors shy away from using it with women who may be "predisposed" to uterine cancer.

I have no idea if tamoxifen has "estrogenic" effects in any male tissues.

However, other than these possibilites, I feel nolvadex is perfectly safe to use for our purposes.


BTW, other than this minor point, I like the info in this thread. Karma for Realgains. I'm a step closer to my first fina cycle!

Bro Bro Bro.....tamoxifen is used by ladies that have had breast cancer and almost al of them get no sides and they use it for many years. The uterus issue is true though.

It is estrogenic in men bro and thats why men with heart disease have seen such an improvement in all blood study indicators especially hdl.

 

[Jeff_rys]

Good post Realgains

True and gains on Tren surpasses gains on Primo, Ox, Winny and is cheap (personal experience).
What more do you want?

Jeff

 

[jboldman]

My point here was not that other steroids are harm free but that there are potentially serious side effects that are documented from using trenbolone in equivalent doses commonly used. A review of medline did not reveal any studies for other non-17aa anabolic agents that showed as serious sides. I am not saying do not use tren(I do) I am simply saying, go into it with your eyes wide open and have all the information available. Once again I will credit nandi12 over on trieda for doing this research:
==============================================
There have been a number of posts recently claiming things like "fina is the safest AS you can do" "fina is not liver toxic",
"fina is not hard on the kidneys", "fina IS hard on the kidneys" etc. Despite all these assertions nobody has posted any evidence one way or the other to support their claims.

This is surprising since there are a wealth of data from animal studies on the toxicity and adverse effects of tren. Many are summarized in an excellent paper at

http://www.inchem.org/documents/jec...ono/v23je03.htm

Here are just a few of the studies mentioned in that report. You can read them and decide how potentially toxic you think tren is:

Male castrated rats weighing 65 - 75 g each were given daily s.c doses of 0, 0.02, 0.1, or 0.5 mg TBA as a solution in sesame oil for 10 days after castration. At sacrifice on day 11, dose-related increases were seen in the weights of muscolo levator ani (maximum +250%), prostate (maximum +1400%), and seminal vesicles (maximum+2500%) in all groups. In this experiment TBA showed distinct anabolic and androgenic activity that was 5 times higher than that of testosterone and 20 times higher than that of 17-ethynyl-19-nor- testosterone (Schröder, 1971b)

For a 100kg (220lb) human these dosage correspond to 0, 27mg, 130mg, 660mg per day

In another study:

Groups of 4 male and 4 female domestic pigs (Sus scrofa) were fed diets containing 0, 0.1, 2, or 20 ppm TBA (equivalent to 0, 4, 80, or 800 µg/kg b.w./day TBA, respectively) for 14 weeks.

(note: these doses correspond to 0.4mg, 8mg, 80mg per day in a 220lb human)

There were dose-related decreases in blood levels of testosterone and estradiol in males in all dosed groups (both maximum -95%, significant); progesterone was markedly decreased (maximum -99%, significant) in females in the two highest-dose groups. In the same groups, there were dose-related changes in the absolute and relative weights of the liver (maximum+30%, significant), uterus (maximum -50%, significant), kidney(maximum +25%, significant), and testis (maximum -55%, significant). In the highest-dose group changes were observed in the weights of the pituitary (-15%, significant) and seminal vesicles (+280%,significant). There was an increase in thyroid weight at all three dose levels (maximum +20%, not significant).

Histopathological examination showed the following dose-related abnormalities in the 2 and 20 ppm groups: in the liver, enlargement of the hepatocytes with associated ground glass appearance of the cytoplast; in testes, moderate to complete interstitial cell atrophy (with normal spermatogenesis within the seminiferous tubules);

Yet another study:

Groups of 64 male and 64 female Swiss albino CFLP mice, weighing 22 - 25 g each, were given diets containing 0, 0.5, 1.0, 10 or 100 ppmTBA (equal to 0, 0.004, 0.09, 0.86, or 8.6 mg/kg b.w./day TBA for males, respectively, and 0, 0.005, 0.10, 0.96, or 9.5 mg/kg b.w./day TBA for females, respectively) for 95 - 104 weeks (the test was endedwhen survival was 20% in males or females in the control group). After13 weeks 12 mice/sex were killed. At that time significant increases were observed in the absolute and relative weights of the kidneys in males and females at 100 ppm (20 - 40% increases). Significant decreases were seen in the weights of the spleen of top-dose females (-20%) and significant increases were seen at 1.0, 10, and 100 ppm inmales (+25%).

Terminal gross- and histopathological examination showed an increase in liver nodular hyperplasia and dose-related tumours in the male dose groups;these increases were statistically significant at the two highest doses. The incidence of liver tumours was also increased in females in the highest-dose group (8/52 versus 4/51 in controls). There was an increase in incidence of hepatocyte vacuolation in males in the100 ppm group. In 100 ppm females, gross pathological examination showed an increase in the incidence of enlarged and swollen kidneys, accompanied by a marginal increase in the incidence of nephritis.

Dozens more summaries of studies like these can be found at the website above.
==============================================

My guess would be that if tren causes increase in organ weight then all steroids do too. In fact I have heard that steroids can cause increase in organ weight and especially an enlarged heart if used very long term in large doses. This is very old knowledge....I am going back to the late 1970's.

 

[Silent Method]

Bro Bro Bro.....tamoxifen is used by ladies that have had breast cancer and almost al of them get no sides and they use it for many years. The uterus issue is true though.

The uterus issue being true was my point. You said no sides at all, and I'm just being picky. IMO, if used responsibly, tamoxifen poses little more danger to us than tylenol.

It is estrogenic in men bro and thats why men with heart disease have seen such an improvement in all blood study indicators especially hdl.

Can you elaborate on this? Estrogenic in what sense? In what tissues?

 

[nandi12]

Personally I would include 20 of Nolvadex with it because the use of estrogen inhibitors really screws up total serum cholesterol and hdl. The Tamoxifen acts as an estrogen in the liver and really helps a lot in this regard.

You need to be careful trying to extrapolate the results in postmenopausal women to men.

In men lowering estrogen with aromatase inhibitors is associated with reductions in HDL but no change in LDL levels (1). The salient quote from this study is:

"We conclude that in men, physiological levels of E2 are important in maintaining plasma levels of HDL cholesterol, especially the HDL2 fraction."

Tamoxifen administration on the other hand has little effect on raising HDL levels (2). To quote from this study:

"Tamoxifen decreases serum cholesterol (S-cholesterol) level about 10% and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (S-LDL) 15-20%,but in most studies it has increased serum triglyceride levels and had little effect on serum high-density cholesterol (S-HDL)"

I would not necessarily expect tamoxifen to offset the negative effects of aromatase inhibitors on serum HDL and LDL levels, since it seems incapable of raising the HDL lowered by blocking aromatase.


(1)J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1994 Apr;78(4):855-61

Physiological levels of estradiol stimulate plasma high density lipoprotein2 cholesterol levels in normal men.

Bagatell CJ, Knopp RH, Rivier JE, Bremner WJ.

Medical Service, Seattle Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Washington 98108.

(2)Breast Cancer Res Treat 2000 Oct;63(3):225-34

Serum lipid levels during and after adjuvant toremifene or tamoxifen therapy for breast cancer.

Joensuu H, Holli K, Oksanen H, Valavaara R.

Department of Oncology, Helsinki University Central Hospital, Finland. [email protected]

 

[nandi12]

I am sick and tired of hearing all the crap that is spouted off about Trenbolone acetate being harsh and also toxic for the kidneys. This is simply NOT TRUE!

I also think it is irresponsible to make statements like this with absolutely no evidence to support them. There are no studies as far as I know on the effects of tren on human kidneys.

You would be doing readers a much greater service by simply directing them to the link posted by jboldman and letting them decide for themselves. The animal studies demonstrate than tren can exhibit both liver and kidney toxicity, as well as a spectrum of other deleterious effects.

The dosages used in the studies covered a broad range; some lower and some higher than what bodybuilders use.

 

[tito1]

this is a great post!!!

 

[Mike P.T.]

That's just it. I DONT WANT TO GET THE GYNO!!! Fuck it im not gonna try it.

 

[HighIntensity]

alright guys my 2 2cents

Tren is most likely not healthy for human consumtion, much like any steriod. But facts are facts we are a different breed, we are on this board because we take risks to achieve body perfection.

So while on fina or any riod for that matter just be heads up.

IMOP 37.5- 50 mgs of tren dialy is fine for growth potential, the more tren you do the more risks you take.

WATER WATER WATER, go out and buy bottles and bottle of water, drink all day long....

Green T as well three to five cups a day

ALA- just 2 much proof of how effective it is, take it daily 600mgs can be enough

Cranberry Extract- do a search on the web for kirkman labs cranberry Ect. its only 40 bucks and is great stuff...hey I don't give a fuck if people tell me cranberry does nothing for kidneys, im takeing it...for 40 bucks why not

I am in week 6 of a 14 week cycle, my pee is clean and clear...no problems thus far.

just take it safe

 

[JG1]

Did tren last cycle @ 75mg/day using Component TH converetd with A's kit. I'll never try it again. The side effects were just too bad.

Some of the side effects I got were lactating nipples, dark foamy urine (despite drinking 2 gallons water daily), very constricted throat (felt like there was a vice grip on it), and severe lung pain (thought I had pneumonia). The lung pain progressed and got so bad it hurt whenI breathed, I had to go to the doc and get chest X-Rays which turned out negative for pneumonia...also had a resting heart rate of 120bpm, stopped the fina that day and the pain eventualy went away after about 5-6 days.

I loved the results I got from tren, but the lung pain was just too much for me...never again.

 

[tee]

Nice post. I agree with it all except the gyno part. I had the onset of gyno during week 5 of a tren ONLY cycle. I had to cut my cycle short because of it. I realize that it is rare, but it did happen to me. Anyone that gets swollen nips better stop the cycle immediately because there isnt anything thats proven to stop/block it out there that I know of. (Vitex, RU-486, Winny.....may help)

 

[40butpumpin]

Did tren last cycle @ 75mg/day using Component TH converetd with A's kit. I'll never try it again. The side effects were just too bad.

Some of the side effects I got were lactating nipples, dark foamy urine (despite drinking 2 gallons water daily), very constricted throat (felt like there was a vice grip on it), and severe lung pain (thought I had pneumonia). The lung pain progressed and got so bad it hurt whenI breathed, I had to go to the doc and get chest X-Rays which turned out negative for pneumonia...also had a resting heart rate of 120bpm, stopped the fina that day and the pain eventualy went away after about 5-6 days.

I loved the results I got from tren, but the lung pain was just too much for me...never again.

Bro, do you mean you'll never try any fina again, or that particular stuff? Also, how long before you started noticing the bad sides?

 

[JG1]

Bro, do you mean you'll never try any fina again, or that particular stuff? Also, how long before you started noticing the bad sides?

Probably never try any fina again.....just too scared to try it again, I don't know, maybe a pre-made tren wouldn't cause the same side effects...I just don't know...

I started noticing the tightness in my throat within a week or two, the lung pain came at about 3-4 weeks in.

 

[Chuck T]

Did tren last cycle @ 75mg/day using Component TH converetd with A's kit. I'll never try it again. The side effects were just too bad.

Some of the side effects I got were lactating nipples, dark foamy urine (despite drinking 2 gallons water daily), very constricted throat (felt like there was a vice grip on it), and severe lung pain (thought I had pneumonia). The lung pain progressed and got so bad it hurt whenI breathed, I had to go to the doc and get chest X-Rays which turned out negative for pneumonia...also had a resting heart rate of 120bpm, stopped the fina that day and the pain eventualy went away after about 5-6 days.

I loved the results I got from tren, but the lung pain was just too much for me...never again.

This is pretty interesting b/c there was a post on here a while back saying that fina caused fat loss through an increase of ??prostaglandins?? the same way as PGF2A does but to a lesser extent. Some of your sides (constriction of throat, lung pain) sound like the sides I have read about PGF2A. Also the fact some people get a bad cough after injection just like PGF2A...The similarities between them is weird. This is the first time I have really realized the similarities. Sorry, its kinda off topic but just figured maybe some who knows more could chime in about this...

Chuck

 

[Realgains]

I also think it is irresponsible to make statements like this with absolutely no evidence to support them. There are no studies as far as I know on the effects of tren on human kidneys.

You would be doing readers a much greater service by simply directing them to the link posted by jboldman and letting them decide for themselves. The animal studies demonstrate than tren can exhibit both liver and kidney toxicity, as well as a spectrum of other deleterious effects.

The dosages used in the studies covered a broad range; some lower and some higher than what bodybuilders use.

Your linked studies are flawed as they did not take their measurements AFTER the animals had recovered HPTA activity.
The animals should have beed sacrificed at least a couple months AFTER the last shot or ingestion of tren.

Also you neglected to mention that there were a number of animal studies mentioned in the artcile that showed NO ADVERSE CHANGES.

ALSO, it is commonly know in the medical field that ALL anabolic steroids will cause changes in viseral weight, not to mention potential cardiomegaly in long term users. Trenbolone is not unigue in this respect. Your info is new in regard to tren but very OLD in regard to steroids in general.

Of course there are risks to steroid use, especially long term use. Of course it is"healthier" in many respects to avoid all steroid and tren altogether. There are dangers that all users need to be aware of as there are ways to minimize negative affect.

 

[monkeyballs]

NOBODY really ever needs any hormones other than TREN and TEST.

I was with you untill this part. Great Post...but....
Tren and test will add bulk. Lean Bulk, But still bulk. Some of us who have to deal with weight issues (classes, limitations) cannot afford to put on the bulk that would come with Tren or Test. Halo and Var absolutlely have their place, and their uses.

 

[Realgains]

I was with you untill this part. Great Post...but....
Tren and test will add bulk. Lean Bulk, But still bulk. Some of us who have to deal with weight issues (classes, limitations) cannot afford to put on the bulk that would come with Tren or Test. Halo and Var absolutlely have their place, and their uses.

Good point...I can understand that. I forgot about the power lifter and the track athlete as well as boxers etc.

 

[monkeyballs]

For skinny kids and new BB's...your probably right.

 

[Realgains]

You need to be careful trying to extrapolate the results in postmenopausal women to men.

In men lowering estrogen with aromatase inhibitors is associated with reductions in HDL but no change in LDL levels (1). The salient quote from this study is:

"We conclude that in men, physiological levels of E2 are important in maintaining plasma levels of HDL cholesterol, especially the HDL2 fraction."

Tamoxifen administration on the other hand has little effect on raising HDL levels (2). To quote from this study:

"Tamoxifen decreases serum cholesterol (S-cholesterol) level about 10% and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (S-LDL) 15-20%,but in most studies it has increased serum triglyceride levels


and had little effect on serum high-density cholesterol (S-HDL)"

I would not necessarily expect tamoxifen to offset the negative effects of aromatase inhibitors on serum HDL and LDL levels, since it seems incapable of raising the HDL lowered by blocking aromatase.


(1)J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1994 Apr;78(4):855-61

Physiological levels of estradiol stimulate plasma high density lipoprotein2 cholesterol levels in normal men.

Bagatell CJ, Knopp RH, Rivier JE, Bremner WJ.

Medical Service, Seattle Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Washington 98108.

(2)Breast Cancer Res Treat 2000 Oct;63(3):225-34

Serum lipid levels during and after adjuvant toremifene or tamoxifen therapy for breast cancer.

Joensuu H, Holli K, Oksanen H, Valavaara R.

Department of Oncology, Helsinki University Central Hospital, Finland. [email protected]

Look fella you need to look at ALL the studies before spouting off!!
In a very well know British study for example Tamoxifen was given to a group of men with known heart disease. All showed marked improvement in vascular dilitation and blood flow. Tamoxifen also decreased several other heart disease risk factors including cholesterol, fatty triglycerides, lipprotein-a and fibrinogen. Journal of the American Heart association, sarah C Clarke of the University of Cambridge. March 20

Tamoxifen is estrogen in men FOR A CERTAINTY.

Also I persoanlly have seen an increase in hdl and decrease in ldl and total cholesterol AND triglycerides while on tamoxifen.
Men of note that have aslo noted positive cahnges include the well know and respected steroid researchers Bill Roberts and Bill Llewellyn. In fact Bill Llewellyn has personally stated on this forum that Nolvadex has improved his hdl, while under the watchful eye of his doctor

Tamoxifen may reduce IGF-1 to some degree but not enough to affect gains significantly. I for on am willing to sacrifice a couple pounds for a markedly better cardiac risk profile.

 

[Realgains]

Probably never try any fina again.....just too scared to try it again, I don't know, maybe a pre-made tren wouldn't cause the same side effects...I just don't know...

I started noticing the tightness in my throat within a week or two, the lung pain came at about 3-4 weeks in.

Sounds like you had an allergic reaction to something in the mix bro......could be the tren itself but it is more likely from glue and fillers that got through. I would try it again but with lab made tren.

 

[nandi12]

Men of note that have aslo noted positive cahnges include the well know and respected steroid researchers Bill Roberts and Bill Llewellyn.

You must be joking, right? Steroid reseachers? These characters have never published a single article in a peer reviewed medical or scienticic journal.

You certainly seem to present a lot of things as facts without producing much data to back them up

 

[Realgains]

You must be joking, right? Steroid reseachers? These characters have never published a single article in a peer reviewed medical or scienticic journal.

You certainly seem to present a lot of things as facts without producing much data to back them up

So what if they have not published in " peer reviewed medical or scienticic journal" You obviously have yet to read much if anything from these men. BTW Bill Roberts was probably doing steroids AND RESEARCHING before you were even born!

 

[nandi12]

Once again you are mistaken, realgains. I am 47.

 

[Realgains]

Once again you are mistaken, realgains. I am 47.

Gee nice number to pull out of your hat ........I would have shot higher though , perhaps 57 he he he Do you think I buy that one HA!
You started it bro.....trying to discredit me with sarcastic and cutting statements.

 

[BigBazooka]

Hmmmm. How about making a post "NEWBIE, don't be afraid of going to gym and train!!"

 

[jboldman]

Why was he trying to discredit you? I think, and reasonably so, he was saying that blanket statements are sometimes not true. You counter withm, no studies, but, "it is commonly known" opinions. Now, we all know that if you look hard enough you can find "a" study to support whatever you want. The facts are that there are some serious side effects from using tren and that users should be aware of them before using it. I would not get your undies in a bundle here, this was an interesting discussion with points and counterpoints being made based on studies and personal experience, let's not have it degenerate to name calling but rather keep it at the level it should be, participants in an activity that suffers a dirth of good scientific studies due to the nature of it trying to find and share infromation. BTW I am over 50! How old are you........

jb

Gee nice number to pull out of your hat ........I would have shot higher though , perhaps 57 he he he Do you think I buy that one HA!
You started it bro.....trying to discredit me with sarcastic and cutting statements.

 

[Realgains]

Why was he trying to discredit you? I think, and reasonably so, he was saying that blanket statements are sometimes not true. You counter withm, no studies, but, "it is commonly known" opinions. Now, we all know that if you look hard enough you can find "a" study to support whatever you want. The facts are that there are some serious side effects from using tren and that users should be aware of them before using it. I would not get your undies in a bundle here, this was an interesting discussion with points and counterpoints being made based on studies and personal experience, let's not have it degenerate to name calling but rather keep it at the level it should be, participants in an activity that suffers a dirth of good scientific studies due to the nature of it trying to find and share infromation. BTW I am over 50! How old are you........

jb

I guess you have not been reading the thread very well...........oh well I give up

 

[frorider6]

Ya know, I was going tor ead over this and give a thoughtful opinion, but I've been over this so many times that I'll just be brief.

I'm pretty new to the game. I just finished a tren cycle, my second ever. So I've not been in the game as long and haven't gotten as accumstomed to the idea of gear.

Tren is not a newbie drug. Daily injections by someone new and unfamiliar with injections is more likely to cause infections and other problems.

Also, Tren sides have NO DEFINITE WAY to be controlled. At this point, it's all speculation and opinion.

FOR ALL NEWBIES - It's better to stick with light cycles of gear that the sides effects can be controlled. I wish I had.

 

[negaun]

good post!!

karma in your way bro!

 

[Realgains]

Ya know, I was going tor ead over this and give a thoughtful opinion, but I've been over this so many times that I'll just be brief.

I'm pretty new to the game. I just finished a tren cycle, my second ever. So I've not been in the game as long and haven't gotten as accumstomed to the idea of gear.

Tren is not a newbie drug. Daily injections by someone new and unfamiliar with injections is more likely to cause infections and other problems.

Also, Tren sides have NO DEFINITE WAY to be controlled. At this point, it's all speculation and opinion.

FOR ALL NEWBIES - It's better to stick with light cycles of gear that the sides effects can be controlled. I wish I had. [/QUOTE



Looks like the tren gave you some nice lean mass bro.....

I hear ya bro....but if you are sure of the sterility of the tren(pasturize it yourself) it really isn't that big of a deal. Tren will go through a 27 1.5 inch pin rather well with an insulin syringe and it doesn't hurt but it is important that the person using it knows how and where to inject and that why I recommended a friends help at first. But if a newbie cannot get good instruction then its best not to even inject a roid or testosterone once per week. After a few guided pokes it really becomes a breeze for most. Its not rocket science and the volume of injection is tiny not to mention the pin is so thin that you can push it through the skin in slow motion and feel next to nothing.

I would sooner poke myself with a tiny 27 pin and inject half a cc then pop d-bols all day thats for sure and d-bol seems to be a fairly common hormone for the newbie.

I really don't think 50 of tren with perhaps 100 of proviron(non 17 aa roid) or a little test (200mg/week) is too much for a newbie. In fact I think it is a nice light cycle. Sure beats using 17 aa roids.
Also it is very cheap to make and its fun too.

There are ways to control the sides from tren.
The sides from moderate dose tren usually are not bad at all. I beat that most guys would hardly notice a thing. The loss of libido can be controlled via proviron or a small dose of test.
Hair loss, if you have the genetics,can be controlled by using topical spironolactone. Test is harder on the hair than tren
The chances of getting gyno is really slim bro. If nipple tenderness starts then just stop the tren and it will go away and blow up into gyno.

 

[Realgains]

Ya know, I was going tor ead over this and give a thoughtful opinion, but I've been over this so many times that I'll just be brief.

I'm pretty new to the game. I just finished a tren cycle, my second ever. So I've not been in the game as long and haven't gotten as accumstomed to the idea of gear.

Tren is not a newbie drug. Daily injections by someone new and unfamiliar with injections is more likely to cause infections and other problems.

Also, Tren sides have NO DEFINITE WAY to be controlled. At this point, it's all speculation and opinion.

FOR ALL NEWBIES - It's better to stick with light cycles of gear that the sides effects can be controlled. I wish I had.

What sides did you get bro?

 

[frorider6]

What sides did you get bro?

I got puffy nips (not no hard lumps). I tried Vitex, Nolvadex and Bromo but nothing stopped it. From what I've learned, it's a shot in the dark if you'll have these or worse problems from it. Some don't, some do.

The very fact that gyno is a real risk with this stuff is enough to tell me that it's not a newbie drug. That combined with home made preperations and daily injections seals it. It should stay an advanced drug. There are plenty of drugs out now that have controllable sides (test and arimidex) or no sides at all (anavar and I think primo).

However, I do agree with you that ALL first cycles should be of low doses.

 

[HighIntensity]

like fro said gyno and tren is a shot in the dark, you look at fros body and you would assume with his lean BF, gyno would not be a problem but since it is not extrogen related this had not effect.

Im running tren for a long 14 weeks and my nipples are fine, funny thing is weeks 1-3 they were very itchey

I started to worry, but my nips have gotten itchey with norandros before and no gyno....after week 3 all symtoms went away and I am fine.

 

[nandi12]

Realgains, I think, as usual, jboldman is the voice of reason. I really didn't intend for this to degenerate into a flame session. I think you made a lot of good points, and I'm sorry if my tone was offensive. Tamoxifen may very well help with serum lipids, and tren may be safe. Hell, I use it and have never had any problems.

My point was just to let others know that there are always two sides to any debate, by definition.

I think that presenting a point and then a counterpoint helps others to formulate their own opinions.

Let's bury the hatchet. I am sorry I offended you. By the way, I really am 47 and have been juicing for about 15 years.

Peace

 

[monkeyballs]

This has been a good discussion...
Kudos to all involved.

 

[Realgains]

I got puffy nips (not no hard lumps). I tried Vitex, Nolvadex and Bromo but nothing stopped it. From what I've learned, it's a shot in the dark if you'll have these or worse problems from it. Some don't, some do.

The very fact that gyno is a real risk with this stuff is enough to tell me that it's not a newbie drug. That combined with home made preperations and daily injections seals it. It should stay an advanced drug. There are plenty of drugs out now that have controllable sides (test and arimidex) or no sides at all (anavar and I think primo).

However, I do agree with you that ALL first cycles should be of low doses.

I am sorry that you got the puffy nips bro but if ya don't have any actual breast tissue(lumps under the nips) then I wouldn't get too concerned about it. I remember a friend of mine had puffy nips for a while way back when he was 20 or so. Never even used roids back then yet he got puffy nips....it went away in time and never progressed to gyno.

As I mentioned the chances of getting gyno from tren is VERY slim indeed yet using roids is always a bit of a crap shoot.

 

[AussieJack]

Don't take ANYBODY's word as gospel, not even the experts. Do your own research and make your own judgements. Sorry, but any time somebody tells me something is completely safe, I gotta think they are over-simplifying things.

 

[frorider6]

For a newbie, I'd recommend 1 of the following cycles:

30-40 mg ED anavar for 6-8 weeks

200-300mg single ester test per week

Possibly a stack of the above 2: 30 mg anavar ED & 200 mg test per week.

I just don't think ED injections is the best thing for a newbie, regardless of sterility issues. It's a pain in the ass and unnecessary.

And I'll always suggest "low doses" for newbies. Even though from what I've learned, a "low dose" by today's standards was once what the 70s era pros used to use. And how many of us actually look like a pro, even from the 70's-80's.

 

[Realgains]

Realgains, I think, as usual, jboldman is the voice of reason. I really didn't intend for this to degenerate into a flame session. I think you made a lot of good points, and I'm sorry if my tone was offensive. Tamoxifen may very well help with serum lipids, and tren may be safe. Hell, I use it and have never had any problems.

My point was just to let others know that there are always two sides to any debate, by definition.

I think that presenting a point and then a counterpoint helps others to formulate their own opinions.

Let's bury the hatchet. I am sorry I offended you. By the way, I really am 47 and have been juicing for about 15 years.

Peace

Thanx.... and hatchet burried.
I guess I should have made it clear that NO ROID is absolutely safe.
That siad I really do think that the 17aa orals are by far the worst as they are proven to be hard on the liver and really mess with ones cholesterol profile. The cholesterol issue and liver issue are the worst sides from roid use IMO.

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

Good point/counterpoints from both sides gentleman.Please,let's keep this a civilized and mature discussion,no need to hammer each other into the ground,as we're all brothers in the same cause.

Tren strengths:Multi functional compound,terrific for both mass/strength,as well as hardening up/vascularity/cutting.Has the stongest binding affinity of any steroid to the androgen receptor.Stacks extremely well from a synergism standpoint with almost any other anabolic.EXTREMELY cost effective as well.

Negatives:Can cause PGF2a-like symptoms in certain users,inducing a cough and rapid temperature rise.Is quite potent from an androgenic standpoint at shutting down H-P-T-A,and does seem to impart some prolactinemic fluid retention in the mammaries for select individuals(myself being one).I'm not entirely sure the darkened urine is indicative of renal impairment,as I have not shown anything of alarm with my bloodwork during this event,but I will stress:REGULAR blood work is a MUST,as each of us responds differently.Just my quick .02,and please,once again,let's increase our knowledge in a civilized fashion fellas and GROW together,instead of tearing each other apart

Great thread!

 

[Realgains]

For a newbie, I'd recommend 1 of the following cycles:

30-40 mg ED anavar for 6-8 weeks

200-300mg single ester test per week

Possibly a stack of the above 2: 30 mg anavar ED & 200 mg test per week.

I just don't think ED injections is the best thing for a newbie, regardless of sterility issues. It's a pain in the ass and unnecessary.

And I'll always suggest "low doses" for newbies. Even though from what I've learned, a "low dose" by today's standards was once what the 70s era pros used to use. And how many of us actually look like a pro, even from the 70's-80's.

BRO I am all for low doses but.....200 of test per week isn't much more than a replacement dose of test bro. Also, the anavar is 17aa and will mess with ones cholesterol. Oral primo would be a better choice if you could find it as it is not 17aa.

I don't like anavar except in tiny doses for females and for the power lifter, boxer or track athlete trying to stay in a weight class

Dose needed to achieve gains has a lot to do with how well developed one is before doing juice. If one has reached his natural limit while training for years clean then the dose of roid and test that you recommended will not do very much. The bro would grow a little and his strength would go up but gains would be pretty slight really. Also, even at the dose you recommended HPTA will be negatively impacted so one might as well do a little more and see better gains. I would recommend 500 of test per week for the more developed man. Test is easy on the cholesterol in moderate doses and is known to be non toxic at these doses as well. Have Nolva on hand just to be safe(gyno)

But if one has never really trained and ate hard and is NOT at his natural limit then your stack would do fine BUT I would recommend that this under developed bro learn to train and eat better and grow more as a natural before doing juice at all. You can get great gains from natural test levels if you are not yet very near your natural limit.

 

[gimp]

Well, for what it's worth here is how I'm doing on TREN. I'm doing 50mg/day IM. I'm using a vet preparation from France (FINABOLON EXTRA FORT 70mg/ml, anyone heard of this? from NEGMA LABS) Anyways, I'm rotating my sites daily, using clean sterile pins, I'm an RN in Canada, so, I'm adept at injections. I really haven't noticed anything yet, I'm on my 12th day, some increase in strength and I feel "bulkier" but I'm eating big , so it could be the food intake. I've not experienced any back pain or change in urine. I'm drinking about 4 litres of H2O/day.I do have terrible insomnia since I started though.I've read that most people see a difference by week# 3, is this accurate? I have no tenderness around my nipples, but I'm considering stopping the cycle due to other posts saying that the gyno only hit them in week #5. If I do decide to stop, is there any danger in stopping abruptly? Or should I just push through to week #6?

 

[Realgains]

Well, for what it's worth here is how I'm doing on TREN. I'm doing 50mg/day IM. I'm using a vet preparation from France (FINABOLON EXTRA FORT 70mg/ml, anyone heard of this? from NEGMA LABS) Anyways, I'm rotating my sites daily, using clean sterile pins, I'm an RN in Canada, so, I'm adept at injections. I really haven't noticed anything yet, I'm on my 12th day, some increase in strength and I feel "bulkier" but I'm eating big , so it could be the food intake. I've not experienced any back pain or change in urine. I'm drinking about 4 litres of H2O/day.I do have terrible insomnia since I started though.I've read that most people see a difference by week# 3, is this accurate? I have no tenderness around my nipples, but I'm considering stopping the cycle due to other posts saying that the gyno only hit them in week #5. If I do decide to stop, is there any danger in stopping abruptly? Or should I just push through to week #6?

I am an RN too and from Canada...live in the USA now though better $$ he he he .

Since you are doing tren only I would UP the dose to 75mg daily. I am wondering if Mr. Happy has gone to sleep yet........if he does and it bugs ya then get some test or proviron on board.
If your nips start to get sore then simply stop the cycle bro and you will not get gyno as the tren will clear in a few days. It is VERY RARE to get gyno from tren bro evemn though it does happen from time to time.
There is no danger in stopping tren all at once.
Yes by week three most see a dfiiference bro.
Be sure to hammer the clomid three days after your last shot. Do 300mg on day one in divided doses and then 50-100mg oer day for ten days and then 50mg per day for another 10.

Good luck and keep us posted.
RG

 

[gimp]

Yeah, I want to head down to Texas soon, I know I can make more$$, but, I'm cool for the moment. I'm not concerned about impotence at the moment, I'm married, LOL!! But actually I'm experiencing great hard-ons, no testicular atrophy either. What's the clomid like? Are there any side effects with it?

 

[Realgains]

Yeah, I want to head down to Texas soon, I know I can make more$$, but, I'm cool for the moment. I'm not concerned about impotence at the moment, I'm married, LOL!! But actually I'm experiencing great hard-ons, no testicular atrophy either. What's the clomid like? Are there any side effects with it?

Teaticular atrophy usually starts after 10-12 weeks although you are going to get a little even at 4 weeks.

For absolute optimum recovery the nuts need to be at 100% prior to clomid.....so by doing 500iu's of H C G per day in the last two weeks of a cycle and prior to clomid will get the boys up and running and big and bouncy so they can respond best to LH post cycle. You don't really need it unless your cycle is over 10 weeks and or you experienced ball shrinkage........yet even during a short cycle it can help speed recovery somewhat.

Clomid sides......... not many for most. Some say acne although I have never gotten that from clomid.........other possible common sides include nausea, dizziness, headaches and temporarily blurred vision. These sides usually only occur in females as they feel that affects of estrogen tinkering more than men. Clomid is a must in any cycle though bro and especially with the strong androgens like tren and test as HPTA will be utterly shut down.

 

[Torch]

Great Post

 

[Ulter]

Way back in the beginning RealGains said you don't need anything besides Tren and test. After giving that some thought I came to the conclusion he is right. By adding or subtracting calories you control bulk or cut so that's not a consideration. Tren is the best muscle builder mg for mg and test keeps the libido working espcially if you add proviron as someone suggested. And as someone else points out it will go through a 29 1/2. That's what I use BTW also.
But that doesn't mean everyone can use it because everyone might not tollerate it well. Just like some don't tollerate test or deca well. AS has to used with caution until you know what sides you may encounter. Like using 75mg/ED of tren before you try 150mg/ED.
If you are looking for stats showing it's record of safety for newbies I think you only need to look at rural America. In most rural areas of the US tren is all they have and for this reason most guys start out on Tren. Newbies on tren is nothing new to them. So where are all the published reports about how all these men are dropping like flies from liver or kidney ailments? This would be big news if it were happening but I don't see it. Where is this boogie man you "toxic tren" people are saying is out there waiting for everyone? There are thousands of men using tren daily so why aren't the stories of their demise being posted here? Surely if it is so toxic you must know lots of people who have fallen gravely ill from it. Name two.
There no reason a "newbie" should not use Tren any more than any other AS. The argument that Tren is more toxic is crap. Over 90% of all the newbies I know have put Dbol in their first cycle. Some use only Dbol in their first cycle and this 40+ year old compound, Dbol, is surely as Toxic as any AS, save halo. Yet no one is saying not to use it in your first cycle like they are tren on this board.
Tren is a good choice for newbies.

 

[Realgains]

Way back in the beginning RealGains said you don't need anything besides Tren and test. After giving that some thought I came to the conclusion he is right. By adding or subtracting calories you control bulk or cut so that's not a consideration. Tren is the best muscle builder mg for mg and test keeps the libido working espcially if you add proviron as someone suggested. And as someone else points out it will go through a 29 1/2. That's what I use BTW also.
But that doesn't mean everyone can use it because everyone might not tollerate it well. Just like some don't tollerate test or deca well. AS has to used with caution until you know what sides you may encounter. Like using 75mg/ED of tren before you try 150mg/ED.
If you are looking for stats showing it's record of safety for newbies I think you only need to look at rural America. In most rural areas of the US tren is all they have and for this reason most guys start out on Tren. Newbies on tren is nothing new to them. So where are all the published reports about how all these men are dropping like flies from liver or kidney ailments? This would be big news if it were happening but I don't see it. Where is this boogie man you "toxic tren" people are saying is out there waiting for everyone? There are thousands of men using tren daily so why aren't the stories of their demise being posted here? Surely if it is so toxic you must know lots of people who have fallen gravely ill from it. Name two.
There no reason a "newbie" should not use Tren any more than any other AS. The argument that Tren is more toxic is crap. Over 90% of all the newbies I know have put Dbol in their first cycle. Some use only Dbol in their first cycle and this 40+ year old compound, Dbol, is surely as Toxic as any AS, save halo. Yet no one is saying not to use it in your first cycle like they are tren on this board.
Tren is a good choice for newbies.

Man I wish I could put things across like you Ulter! WELL SAID!
It is great to hear from guys like Ulter and Huck!
Bring on more of the ultra vets!

 

[Silent Method]

Anyways, I'm rotating my sites daily, using clean sterile pins, I'm an RN in Canada, so, I'm adept at injections.

I am an RN too and from Canada...live in the USA now though better $$ he he he .

RG

Yeah, I want to head down to Texas soon, I know I can make more$$, but, I'm cool for the moment.

Ohh great, just what we need down here. A few more 250 pound Canadian nurses with itchy plunger fingers!

Just kidding guys!

 

[jboldman]

Well, it looks like we are all on the same page again here. BTW, RG, I do not do 17aa's and like you think that tren and test are a safer way to go. Actually i think that test is the basis for all cycles, can do without any of the other steroids but it goes great with tren. I use tren in virtually every cycle, make it myself using a similar method to your recommended method and think that a newbie cycle for test and tren would be 75mg tren eod for the first two weeks bumped to 75mg ed after that if they desired. Test at 400-500 a week. Like you I agree that 200 mg of test does not do much. I don't care for proviron, might as well use test!
BTW, stay tuned for a novel way to make your own tren that I will be posting shortly after I try it out. Just a little twist that is not too expensive and could potentially make things much easier.

jb

 

[Realgains]

Well, it looks like we are all on the same page again here. BTW, RG, I do not do 17aa's and like you think that tren and test are a safer way to go. Actually i think that test is the basis for all cycles, can do without any of the other steroids but it goes great with tren. I use tren in virtually every cycle, make it myself using a similar method to your recommended method and think that a newbie cycle for test and tren would be 75mg tren eod for the first two weeks bumped to 75mg ed after that if they desired. Test at 400-500 a week. Like you I agree that 200 mg of test does not do much. I don't care for proviron, might as well use test!
BTW, stay tuned for a novel way to make your own tren that I will be posting shortly after I try it out. Just a little twist that is not too expensive and could potentially make things much easier.

jb

Thats cool