Labs after sub-q trt, E2 & hematocrit skyhigh!

[testo66]

Hi all,

I just received my lab results taken one month after switching to my new sub-Q protocol:

62.5mg sub-Q T enanthate 2 X week (total 125mg EW) + 250IU sub-Q HCG 2X week (total 500IU EW).
both injected at the same evening, each of them in a different place in the abdomen.

I'm 23, healthy and trying eating healthy - low carbs/high protein/moderate good fats.
eating 200 grams of cruciferous vegetables every day (broccoli/cleavage).
supplementing daily with fish oil, vit C, multivitamin (no iron), zinc, magnesium, TMG, creatine, MSM, & 5000IU vit-d.
training regularly in the gym.

blood was taken on 10/02/2014, the morning of my scheduled day for the first weekly evening injection:

DHEA SO4 7.78 UMOL/L ( 7.60- 17.40) (*........)
ESTRADIOL(E2) 196.42 PMOL/L ( 0.00- 146.10) (.........)*
FSH < 0.8 ( 1.40- 18.10)
LH < 0.2 ( 1.50- 9.30)
PROLACTIN 178.86 MU/L ( 45.00- 375.00) (...*.....)
TESTOSTERONE 33.31 NMOL/L ( 8.40- 28.70) (.........)*
FREE ANDROGEN INDEX 86.20 ( 30.00- 150.00) (...*.....)
SHBG 41.10 NMOL/L ( 13.00- 71.00) (...*.....)

FREE T4 13.20 PMOL/L ( 9.00- 19.00) (...*.....)
FREE T3 3.00 PMOL/L ( 2.66- 5.70) (*........)
TSH 2.03 UIU/ML ( 0.35- 4.94) (..*......)

WBC 4.60 K/UL ( 4.00- 10.00) (*........)
NEUTROPHILS 2.60 K/UL ( 1.80- 6.60) (.*.......)
NEUTROPHILS % 57.30 % ( 46.00- 68.00) (....*....)
LYMPHOCYTES 1.50 K/UL ( 1.10- 3.50) (.*.......)
LYMPHOCYTES % 32.00 % ( 15.00- 45.00) (....*....)
MONOCYTES 0.40 K/UL ( 0.08- 0.90) (...*.....)
MONOCYTES % 8.80 % ( 2.00- 9.00) (........*)
EOSINOPHILS 0.10 K/UL ( 0.00- 0.60) (.*.......)
EOSINOPHILS % 1.50 % ( 0.00- 6.00) (.*.......)
BASOPHILS 0.00 K/UL ( 0.00- 0.15)
BASOPHILS % 0.40 % ( 0.00- 1.50) (.*.......)
RBC 5.38 MU/L ( 4.30- 6.00) (.....*...)
HEMOGLOBIN 17.30 G/DL ( 13.50- 17.50) (........*)
HEMATOCRIT 49.90 % ( 38.00- 50.00) (........*)
MCV 92.80 FL ( 80.00- 98.00) (.....*...)
MCH 32.10 PG ( 27.00- 33.00) (.......*.)
MCHC 34.60 G/DL ( 32.00- 35.50) (......*..)
PLATELETS 161.00 K/UL ( 150.00- 400.00) (*........)
MPV 7.80 FL ( 6.50- 11.50) (.*.......)
RDW 13.80 % ( 11.00- 16.00) (....*....)

a few questions came up:

1. ESTRADIOL -it is way above normal range! what should i do? i thought that SC injection should lower it.
is Arimidex/anastrozole the only solution? what exactly should I ask my doc, and what is the recommended dosage?

2. I currently have no place to get an AI, would taking dim(diindolylmethane) or Indole-3-carbinol may help?

3. should I consider changing my protocol (HCG dosage/frequency)?​

4. HEMATOCRIT - very high. with androgel I never got those high numbers.
does it mean I must donate blood? is it a regular donation or RBC only donation? I never done this before.
are there other ways of decreasing it?

5. HEMOGLOBIN -very high too. is it correlated with HEMATOCRIT? same questions for it.

6. DHEA SO4 - it is almost bellow range, what does that indicate? should I look into it?

7. how are my T / FREE ANDROGEN INDEX / SHBG values?

8. lastly - what do my TSH/T3/T4 indicate about my thyroid?
from measurements I took for a week I'm getting 36.0 celsius (96.8 fahrenheit) every morning in bed before getting up.
am I iodine deficient? noting again that I'm eating 200 grams of cruciferous vegetables each day (which may interfere with iodine intake).

sorry I have so many questions,
I appreciate any help.

 

[Zyglamail]

So this clearly isnt doctor guided, what is it your trying to do here, cycle or trt? Your a bit young for trt.

1. ESTRADIOL -it is way above normal range! what should i do? i thought that SC injection should lower it.
is Arimidex/anastrozole the only solution? what exactly should I ask my doc, and what is the recommended dosage?

2. I currently have no place to get an AI, would taking dim(diindolylmethane) or Indole-3-carbinol may help?

3. should I consider changing my protocol (HCG dosage/frequency)?​

If your shooting for TRT your test dose is too high. You want to bring it down back into lab range for long term health considerations.

Because your test is so high is also why your E is so high. Drop your test and get an AI from a board sponser.

4. HEMATOCRIT - very high. with androgel I never got those high numbers.
does it mean I must donate blood? is it a regular donation or RBC only donation? I never done this before.
are there other ways of decreasing it?

5. HEMOGLOBIN -very high too. is it correlated with HEMATOCRIT? same questions for it.

more or less tied together. This is directly related to your high T levels. Donate whole blood every 8 weeks to keep this in line and drop test dose as mentioned above.

6. DHEA SO4 - it is almost bellow range, what does that indicate? should I look into it?

You can supplement DHEA to try and bring this up a bit, its OTC.

7. how are my T / FREE ANDROGEN INDEX / SHBG values?

They are fine.

8. lastly - what do my TSH/T3/T4 indicate about my thyroid?
from measurements I took for a week I'm getting 36.0 celsius (96.8 fahrenheit) every morning in bed before getting up.
am I iodine deficient? noting again that I'm eating 200 grams of cruciferous vegetables each day (which may interfere with iodine intake).

The docs will tell you your thyrodi is fine but its not, its functioning suboptimally due to an iodine and selenium deficiency. Also, depending on the veggies you eat, many are goitrogens and have a negative impact on thyroid. If you started this self test regimen because of low T its likely related to your suboptimal thyroid function and possibly partially related to your vit D intake if you dont have optimal magnesium levels which most people dont.

Vit D increases the need for magnesium and can actually cause magnesium problems if borderline deficient. It should also be combined with other fat soluable vits to make sure its working problem. You should be taking vit A in a 5:1 ratio to your vit D. You should also be taking a high dose vit K as well to make sure calcium end up where its supposed to.

With iodine (from lugols solution or iodarol) and selenium (from Selenomethionine) for thyroid you want to make sure to get ample vit C (NOT bound to calcium) as well as a good dose of B1 and B2 in addition to a good b complex and boron.

 

[testo66]

thanks for the quick replay,

more info about me:

I have pretty low body fat - around 10%, and I actually drink a lot (water, no alcohol at all ).
my TRT was doctor guided for a year but unfortunately my doc was only willing to go with androgel, not to mention SC injection and HCG, so now I am only periodically check up with him.

thanks for the tip about cruciferous, I plan on supplementing with iodine 300 mcg/day.
I know it's a low dose comparing to iodine load of 50 MG or so, do you think I need to go there?

more details about my supplementation:
I know my vit D is now in range (VIT.D 25-OH NG/ML 53.60
), and I supplement daily with 400 MG magnesium,
alongside 100 mcg selenium in my multivitamin (natural source life force multiple),
and 2 grams vit C separated through the day (plain ascorbic acid).
should I make any changes?

thanks for the the info about Hct and Hgb, just another detail - I have pretty low blood pressure (95/60 and less) and pulse (60),
does it matter?

I'm now considering injecting the HCG a day before the T instead of both together (did it for convenience only),
would it make much of a difference E2 wise?

and I'm somewhat unsure if the HCG dose is effective, is there a way to tell?
blood test values or even something with pregnancy test I think I once read...

about high E2 - well I currently don't have high E2 symptoms, but should I worry about gyno? what are the indicators that thing get worse?

should I have obtain a SERM just to have a quick treatment if a gyno will occur, and if so which one is recommended?

many say the optimal E2 is about 22(pg/ml) while mine is 53, but again I understand that T is high too?
what is ratio of E2/T or E2/free T that I should seek?
as for lowering my T dose - as long as that ratio is in place what's bad in having a bit more of both?
can you please specify the long term health considerations?

from an online calculator I got these values (from SHBG+FAI):
free testosterone - 0.705 nmol/L = %2.12
bioavailable testosterone - 16.5 nmol/L = %49.6

just for my understanding - should I seek lowering SHBG to have more free T?
how do I effect it?

thanks again for the help.

 

[Zyglamail]

thanks for the tip about cruciferous, I plan on supplementing with iodine 300 mcg/day.
I know it's a low dose comparing to iodine load of 50 MG or so, do you think I need to go there?

Some of the leading docs in the field claim at 50mg per day it can take 6-12 months to reach iodine sufficiency. So if we do the math, 50mg = 50,000mcg. 50,000 is 166 times more than 300mcg so how long would it take you to reach sufficiency at a dose of 300mcg? If it takes a minimum of 6 months at 50,000mcg how long do you think it will take at 300? In short you will never reach sufficiency, so yes, you need to go there if your serious about getting your thyroid functioning optimally.

more details about my supplementation:
I know my vit D is now in range (VIT.D 25-OH NG/ML 53.60
), and I supplement daily with 400 MG magnesium,
alongside 100 mcg selenium in my multivitamin (natural source life force multiple),
and 2 grams vit C separated through the day (plain ascorbic acid).
should I make any changes?

On 5000IU of D your blood levels certainly should be good. Whats not good is the lack of vit !. You chould be getting 5x as much A as D and also vit K. 400mg magnesium is minimal at best and 100mcg selenium is ok when your thyroid function is not optimal but unless you have a diet high in selenium it likely wont be enough if you start taking iodine.

2 grams vit C is a good start, ideally want to be over 6g a day divided in multiple doses.

I'm now considering injecting the HCG a day before the T instead of both together (did it for convenience only),
would it make much of a difference E2 wise?

and I'm somewhat unsure if the HCG dose is effective, is there a way to tell?
blood test values or even something with pregnancy test I think I once read...

about high E2 - well I currently don't have high E2 symptoms, but should I worry about gyno? what are the indicators that thing get worse?

should I have obtain a SERM just to have a quick treatment if a gyno will occur, and if so which one is recommended?

personally I would opt for 600-700hcg once a week instead of the 2 smaller doses, seems to be more effective at giving you a little test boost.

many say the optimal E2 is about 22(pg/ml) while mine is 53, but again I understand that T is high too?
what is ratio of E2/T or E2/free T that I should seek?
as for lowering my T dose - as long as that ratio is in place what's bad in having a bit more of both?
can you please specify the long term health considerations?

from an online calculator I got these values (from SHBG+FAI):
free testosterone - 0.705 nmol/L = %2.12
bioavailable testosterone - 16.5 nmol/L = %49.6

just for my understanding - should I seek lowering SHBG to have more free T?
how do I effect it?

thanks again for the help.

I would consider adding n a small dose of Adex to keep E in line, yours is too high. I wouldnt worry too much about the SHBG etc as long as your feel the test is doing its job and overall your feeling pretty good.

 

[testo66]

thanks again for the quick response,

about iodine - I see what you are saying,
but what are the indicators that my thyroid is performing sub optimally and that I'm iodine deficient?
if I start such a protocol for iodine loading - how would it affect me and what will be the final result?
what improvement would I feel?


thanks for the info about the supplements, I'll consider some changes.

I recently started taking natural way's "DIM plus" once daily each evening,
and also shifted my HCG shots a day back - a day before my T shot E3D.
hope they both help lowering the E2, I'll do another lab test soon.


I'll appreciate any help about the questions and concerns I wrote in my previous post, mainly -
how to tell if HCG dose is effective?
what are the symptoms of high E2, and from what level there is a risk of gyno?

what is ratio of E2/T or E2/freeT that I should seek?

and as for lowering my T dose - as long as that ratio is in place what's bad in having a bit more of both?
any long term health considerations?
I do think I benefit from the higher T levels.


thanks again.

 

[Zyglamail]

thanks again for the quick response,

about iodine - I see what you are saying,
but what are the indicators that my thyroid is performing sub optimally and that I'm iodine deficient?
if I start such a protocol for iodine loading - how would it affect me and what will be the final result?
what improvement would I feel?

95% of the population is iodine deficient. And even among those who arent they are flooded with non essential halides which compete with iodine. Iodine is water soluable so taking too much will just help in forcing out the unneeded halogens. Just google hypothyroidism and ask yourself if you have any of the symptoms.

I recently started taking natural way's "DIM plus" once daily each evening,
and also shifted my HCG shots a day back - a day before my T shot E3D.
hope they both help lowering the E2, I'll do another lab test soon.

HCG is going to increase estrogen if anything, not lower it. DIM should help a bit but I wouldnt expect anything drastic, especially considering how much test you have.

I'll appreciate any help about the questions and concerns I wrote in my previous post, mainly -
how to tell if HCG dose is effective?

What do you mean determine if its effective? Effective at what? You want to know if its helping, stop using it and see if your balls shrink up.

what are the symptoms of high E2, and from what level there is a risk of gyno?

what is ratio of E2/T or E2/freeT that I should seek?

There is no cut off point for when gyno will occure, there is no ideal ratio its all very personal. Suffice it to say if your E is at the high end of normal for men you can expect to have a greater risk of getting gyno. You can also likely expect to retain more fat on your core and there may be some mood symptoms as well.

and as for lowering my T dose - as long as that ratio is in place what's bad in having a bit more of both?
any long term health considerations?
I do think I benefit from the higher T levels.

Ratio smatio, its not about ratio its about keeping your E levels where they are supposed to be for a man, unless of course your goal is to become a woman.

Having T levels on the verge of normal lab range means you are going to naturally generate more estrogen, your also going to have a greater risk of enlarged heart, elevated blood cell count etc.

I have not run a cycle in over a decade and I have been on TRT for 3 years. im 5'11" and 256lbs at around 16%bf. My guess is your no where near my size and if your old enough to be on TRT then you should me wise enough to know your not indestructible and juice alone does not make you big and strong. You can gain plenty of strength and size on TRT doses of test and it will be a lot safer and healthier for you if you keep your test reasonable. If you cant do a decent job of adding mass without going over lab range with your test, then you have other issues you should address.

 

[testo66]

Zyglamail, I can't appreciate enough all the help, thank you very very much.

I will do another blood work soon and i'll be back to update and consult.

any other insights anyone?

 

[surfx]

Zyglamail, I can't appreciate enough all the help, thank you very very much.

I will do another blood work soon and i'll be back to update and consult.

any other insights anyone?

hemoglobin is the protein inside the red blood cells that delivers the oxygen.

hematocrit is the test to check rbc blood volume.

they say that test injections create more red blood cells because its such a high concentration of test in a short period of time, with gels and patches its much more settle.

they say that when the hematocrit rises above 54% or hemoglobin rises above 18 g/dl its necessary to stop or lower t dose and or donate blood.

I have around the same level as you so I take baby aspirin and withdraw blood. I think its better to do it before levels get too high.

 

[testo66]

thanks for the replay surfx, I just scheduled a blood donation.

also, I'm planning to take another blood test tomorrow morning, and I actually have an important question:

tomorrow I'm planning to take the blood test,
and today's evening is my weekly first HCG injection (as tomorrow is the weekly first T injection).

just a reminder - my protocol is:
62.5mg sub-Q T enanthate 2 X week (total 125mg EW)
250IU sub-Q HCG 2X week (total 500IU EW), a day before The T injection day.


should I inject the HCG today or not?

on the one hand injecting it today will obviously affect the blood test tomorrow morning (which is mainly to check the high E2 values I got in the last test),
but on the other hand - not injecting it today meaning that the values I'll get in the test tomorrow will not reflect the real E2 blood values that I normally have with my protocol - and that is what I really want to find out...

I know the recommendation is to take blood test on the day of the weekly T shot - before the shot (and that's what I do),
but what about the HCG?

thanks for the help.