Is the groundfighting becoming obsolete?

[megamania500]

Is the groundfighting game becoming obsolete?

With the arrival of Royce Gracie in the UFC in '93 and after, everyone jumped on the groundfighting bandwagon. It was clearly shown how someone with skilled takedown and ground skills could have an advantage over a stand-up striker. But here it is, years later, and we are seeing strikers winning against groundfighters (not always, of course. But i.e. Silva and Liddel's successes in the ocagon).
Is it the promoters that are putting great strikers against poor groundfighters in an attempt to liven up the fight cards? Is it that strikers are figuring out how to counter against the groundfighter's takedown attempts?
Myself, I'd like to think that its the latter. That the fight game is evolving to the point that what was the most effective strategy ten years ago has evolved into something more effective. Today's Chuck Liddel -vs- Royce Gracie of '94?

 

[novamanms]

The bandwagon was jumped on because it was a range few knew how to fight in. None of the ranges will ever become absolete. It's vital to know at least rudimentary basics of fighting in each.

As for the ground game, it will continue to evolve...as have MMA fighters. In the end, fighters will be winning not on a question of their style or technique, but of their own wits and physical accumen.

 

[megamania500]

The bandwagon was jumped on because it was a range few knew how to fight in. None of the ranges will ever become absolete. It's vital to know at least rudimentary basics of fighting in each.

As for the ground game, it will continue to evolve...as have MMA fighters. In the end, fighters will be winning not on a question of their style or technique, but of their own wits and physical accumen.

lol, because the answer you gave was one I should've been able to figure out myself if I had gave it some thjought.

 

[Djimbe]

I disagree with pl that say things "Contuinue To Evole" I think that they "Continue To Cycle" . People forgot how to Groundfight because for so long so many ppl were at the place wich is obviously approaching now - its easily Thwarted for the ost part if you know how , but then ppl stop training it for a time , and it becomes "revoiloutionary" again ... and the whole thing starts over .

 

[megamania500]

I disagree with pl that say things "Contuinue To Evole" I think that they "Continue To Cycle" . People forgot how to Groundfight because for so long so many ppl were at the place wich is obviously approaching now - its easily Thwarted for the ost part if you know how , but then ppl stop training it for a time , and it becomes "revoiloutionary" again ... and the whole thing starts over .

Let me get what your saying here, because I don't think I'm understanding what your saying. In other words, you see "revolutionary" as being no different as what it was before. But since it lost it's "effectiveness" (due to becoming familiar to everyone) at one point, people reverted to other tactics to "evolve" and counter these tactics. Therefore, they neglected to learn the basics of the original tactics.
And the neglect of these original tactics (and the unfamiliarity of these tactics that comes with this neglect) for a certain period of time makes the comeback of these original tactics become "revolutionary" in the eyes of those that are just now learning them?

 

[Djimbe]

Wow , are you in Contract Litigation by any chance ?

I THINK you have what Im trying to say ..

No one was Groundfighting because everyone knew the "Trick" to stopping it , but after a while , no one bothered to Try for so long that the "Tricks" to stopping it were forgotten . then ppl were caught Unawares/unprepared , because they only trained for Standing Fights . Now theyre Slowly "Dusting Off" or "Rediscovring" the same Tricks they USED to know before they got Complacent and lazy .

 

[AEKDB]

I think we are seeing for the first time true athelets who are very good and ground fighting and very good at standup.

 

[megamania500]

Wow , are you in Contract Litigation by any chance ?

I THINK you have what Im trying to say ..

No one was Groundfighting because everyone knew the "Trick" to stopping it , but after a while , no one bothered to Try for so long that the "Tricks" to stopping it were forgotten . then ppl were caught Unawares/unprepared , because they only trained for Standing Fights . Now theyre Slowly "Dusting Off" or "Rediscovring" the same Tricks they USED to know before they got Complacent and lazy .

But if ppl forgot the tricks to defend against the "older" groundfighting tactics, wouldn't that make Royce Gracie's fighting style just as effective now against the present day's fighters as it was against the fighters of 10-15 years ago? If so, the Royce would be just as effective today as he was 12 years ago. But a good example of the opposite of this would be Ultimate Fighter #2 fight of Joe Stevenson vs Luke Cummo, where Luke did a pretty good job of fighting back against Joe's ground game. Although Joe won by unanimous decision, Luke did a pretty good job of fighting back against Joe's ground game. Now, did Luke do well because he knew the tactics of Joe's ground game, or because his stand-up was just that well-honed that it made Joe's ground game obsolete?

 

[JL_204]

Ground fighting is like a chess game. There is an answer for everything. Basically, the first one who makes a mistake is done.

It also depends on the individual. My buddy and I have been training Muay Thai and BJJ for the same amount of time. He kicks my ass sparring and I kick his ass rolling.

 

[AEKDB]

I know some will disagree but... As far as the circle concept, I do not think we will go back to the classic styles being considered anything more than a pure form of art. All real fighters will bring a solid basic ground game composed of BJJ/Wrestling (a little judo perhaps), along with a solid standing game Mauy thai/boxing.

On an intersting side note, and contrary to my coment above, I decided to see what Martial Arts books my university library had. There was a book from the '40s showing basic grappling including: rear naked choke, double leg takedown, joint locks, etc. Could be a modern book. Unbelievable in that the demonstrators where wearing business suits (with jacket) in place of gis.

 

[Djimbe]

What Im saying has nothign to DO with "Classic Styles" Im talking about Competitions here . Juso is all about the Throw , San Shou/San Da Comps didnt really do much Ground work , even Wrestling wasnt really about Ground Subs , was it ? Take any form of Competitive Fighting Ruleset and it totally forgot about Ground Submissions as a whole except Sambo , and the Russians were pretty much in their own little worl for a LONG time , both Geographicaly AND Historo-Culturally .

 

[gjohnson5]

It's just like everything else.
People are wearing "throw backs"
Soon people will be wearing Jerry Curls again

 

[Djimbe]

Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[Yarg!]

No groundfighting (and will never be obselete) is not becoming obselete-ppl are just becomeing more well rounded. To think you can be a successful fighter (not just MMA, a fighter PERIOD) and not have a ground game would be like trying to be the top fighter without kicking or punching or throwing, etc. Silva BTW is a black belt in BJJ, and Lidell is a purple + ex college wrestler. Those guys can hold their own on the ground against 99 percent of the world's population (because literally the guys who can sub them probably are only about a thousand: some Judo BBs, Sambo and BJJers).

 

[Kane Fan]

What Im saying has nothign to DO with "Classic Styles" Im talking about Competitions here . Juso is all about the Throw , San Shou/San Da Comps didnt really do much Ground work , even Wrestling wasnt really about Ground Subs , was it ? Take any form of Competitive Fighting Ruleset and it totally forgot about Ground Submissions as a whole except Sambo , and the Russians were pretty much in their own little worl for a LONG time , both Geographicaly AND Historo-Culturally .

Judo has had submission work the entire time as far as I know
if the throw is perfect none is necessary and ther is also the pin option but subs are a part of Judo

 

[GA_Judoka]

Judo has had submission work the entire time as far as I know
if the throw is perfect none is necessary and ther is also the pin option but subs are a part of Judo

We work newaza at least 50% of the time at the dojo where I train. We spend quite a bit of time on transitioning from throws to pins/chokes/arm bars etc. But we also practice mat work 'BJJ style' quite a bit, which probably isn't typical for most Judo clubs. So I would say that more than anything it depends on where you train, and who you train with.

 

[Kane Fan]

that sounds like a really good Judo school I wish I was close to you

 

[Djimbe]

No groundfighting (and will never be obselete) is not becoming obselete-ppl are just becomeing more well rounded. To think you can be a successful fighter (not just MMA, a fighter PERIOD) and not have a ground game would be like trying to be the top fighter without kicking or punching or throwing, etc. Silva BTW is a black belt in BJJ, and Lidell is a purple + ex college wrestler. Those guys can hold their own on the ground against 99 percent of the world's population (because literally the guys who can sub them probably are only about a thousand: some Judo BBs, Sambo and BJJers).

Dude I know PLENTY of ppl that are LEGIT BADASSES that never took any type of Groundfighting in their Lifetimes . It really IS just in MMA and Grappling Tournaments . Most ppl ge through DOZENS of Fights in their Lifetimes with Little more than Rudimentary Boxing Training , and Ive met literally HUNDEREDS of LEOS that hve made Aikido work for them IN REAL LIFE THREATENING SITUATIONS . My Favorite Muay Thai Kru that I know hasnt any Grappling Background and at 60 I wouldnt want to have to go where Id have to to Beat him if I met him on the Street .

Two words for you

Mas Oyama .

 

[Djimbe]

Judo has had submission work the entire time as far as I know
if the throw is perfect none is necessary and ther is also the pin option but subs are a part of Judo

I said "Competitive Fighting Ruleset" not "MA Style" . that is totally to the left of my point that I was making .

 

[Dieselgoku23]

Dude I know PLENTY of ppl that are LEGIT BADASSES that never took any type of Groundfighting in their Lifetimes . It really IS just in MMA and Grappling Tournaments . Most ppl ge through DOZENS of Fights in their Lifetimes with Little more than Rudimentary Boxing Training , and Ive met literally HUNDEREDS of LEOS that hve made Aikido work for them IN REAL LIFE THREATENING SITUATIONS . My Favorite Muay Thai Kru that I know hasnt any Grappling Background and at 60 I wouldnt want to have to go where Id have to to Beat him if I met him on the Street .

Two words for you

Mas Oyama .

If any of the strikers your talking about stands up against an MMA fighter on the street like you say, if the MMA fighter is getting his ass kicked as far striking he will take the guy down period. Now the pure striker with no ground experience how is he going to handle a ground and pound on the street or with someone with Grappling background . BTW I have seen ground and pound on the street so is not just on the cage!!. As far as Dozens of fights if you are somewhat train in boxing or Kickboxer you have a better chance of beating the crap out of any old joe out there that never had any training and cant even throw punch so what your saying doesnt make sense. Where I train lots of street brawlers have come into my dojo and get in the ring they get their ass handed to them by guys who have been training for like a 1 year. But then again the street brawler have been in "DOZENS" of fights and some are even pretty good boxers but no ground experience. That proves a point

 

[Djimbe]

If any of the strikers your talking about stands up against an MMA fighter on the street like you say, if the MMA fighter is getting his ass kicked as far striking he will take the guy down period.

Dude, if Mas Oyama or Ueshiba met the AVERAGE MMA Fighter on the street he would have slapped the Crap out of them .

And franky , THIS little statement right here is where MMA Fanbois disengage from Reality JUST a lil bit ...

the fact is that MOST MA Systens out there DO deal with Takedowns . They dont do GROUND GRAPPLING as well , or even at all Some times ads BJJ or Judo , Great ., but Throws/Takedowns ? Have you ever SEEN a San Shou match ? A Capoeira Roda ? Silat training ? Push Hands matches ? Push Hands is ALL about the Takedown . Its a Takedown GAME that STARTS in the Clinch . Taijiquan ppl do it ALL DAY LONG . Pretty much EVERRY Chinese system alive today trains tward the San Shou/San Da/Lei Tai ruleset if they arent a McDojo .

WHen I was 14 I beat the HELL out of a Heavyweight Wrestler who was 19 and Wrestling for NYU . The guy had 5 MAN years on me and at LEAST 60 lbs and I nearly killed him . That was using ONLY Wing Chun and it took me about40 seconds to cripple him . He went STRAIGHT for a takedown and I broke his Elbow for his Trouble . It was a Bad Situation all around , and theres more to it than me just whooping off on the guy , but he was PREPARED to Fight , AND he made the first move when I wasnt even expecting it .

Ive worked in Nightclubs for MY WHOLE LIFE either as a Musician , Soundman , or a Bouncer , and Ive NEVER seen all these Dan Gables/Kurt Angles doing these Perfect Takedowns in real Fights . ANd Ive seen ENS OF THOUSANDS of Combatants in real Fights , I started playing Music when I was 9 for money . In fact USUALLY ppl try to stay on their Feet no matter what they know , because they KNOW the Boot is coming if they go down . Either from a Friend , a Bouncer , or some Idiot Stranger that just wants to be Part of the "Glory" . REAL fights dont happen One on One , or in Cages . ANd in REAL Fights people hit you for REAL in The Eyes m Throat and Knees . Whens the last timeyou saw someone Break a Knee INTENTIONALLY in Competition ? Simply put , pl are NICE to each other in MMA and in the Dojo . they DONT target the body the way a Psychopath would , or someone whose sister you just Touched Innapropriately without her consent . And if you hit ME , you can be DAMED sure that my WIFE my SISTER or my MOTHER - WhOMEVER Im rolling with at the moment - is going to Break your Jaw and a couple of Ribs for you before I can even get Annoyed with you .


I live near one of the best Wrestling Rooms in the Country wich has FREE "Open Mat" times 2x/Week . I also live RIGHT next to a couple of the best Wrestling HIGHSCHOOLS in the nation so between the lot there are no SHORTAGE of Good Wrestlers around - were talkign OLYMPIANS here . I go over there and Train from time to time , and Yes , those kids are in better shape than me , but they cant even THINK aout taking me down till theyve Gassed me , wich takes them at least 15 min . And these guys arent Small , either , a few of them over 350 , and PLENTY over 300 . I DONT get to hit them , and they DO get to Grapple me , and I tend to do JUST fine until Im fatigued . ANd I dont care one Whit about subs . Dont know a one that isnt a Perversion of a Standing sub that I know . And guess what ? I always get out . Even if we START on the Floor .

Now the pure striker with no ground experience how is he going to handle a ground and pound on the street or with someone with Grappling background . BTW I have seen ground and pound on the street so is not just on the cage!!.

Umm , by knocking htem down and Pounding the Crap out o them . "Ground And Pound isnt a GRAPPLERs move , its a STRIKERS . It means : "Im not done hitting you yet even though you fell down" Having Balance and being hard to climb out from under isn the Perveiw of ONLY Wrestling BJJ Sambo and Judo . MANY systems know how to Hit and Kick a man when hes down . And KEEP him there .

You just think that the ONLY Standup systems are MT , TKD , and Boxing , none of wich has ANY Takedown game to speak of . MOST MAs deal with Throwing and Takedowns , and anyone that at LEAST deals with any form of San Shou Rules Sparring (wich is EVERY chinese Martial Art) is going to give you a HUGE suprise when you think thatthey "Wont See This Takedown Coming" . The fact is that Most art are devioded into "Striking OR Grappling" theyre usually Devided into "Standing And Ground" . And MOST of them while not being good at Ground Subs DO have a Takedown game . TRY it on a real Silat guy ! Se what he does with you ! Its SO funny to see Wrestl;ers try doule/single legs on Capoeristas because they instantly dismiss it for "Silly Backflipping" and wind up on their Heads !

As far as Dozens of fights if you are somewhat train in boxing or Kickboxer you have a better chance of beating the crap out of any old joe out there that never had any training and cant even throw punch so what your saying doesnt make sense.

What Im saying dosent make sense when you apply "Fantasy Football" type Logic to it . BEING a Wrestler dosent AUTOMATICLALLY make you good at takedowns . There are plenty of GREAT Wrestlers that were never really any good at them , but FLAWLESS at Reversals and Counters ! or any number of OTHER Tactics that cold help them win a Match > hell some guys get through their whole CAREERS with JUST a Cross Faced Cradle !

Where I train lots of street brawlers have come into my dojo and get in the ring they get their ass handed to them by guys who have been training for like a 1 year. But then again the street brawler have been in "DOZENS" of fights and some are even pretty good boxers but no ground experience. That proves a point

No it dosent . It proves the Point that when you get them on YOUR Turf playing by YOUR rules you can do what YOU like . And Im SURE that Conditioning makes a Play in there somewhere as well ! You Wrap their hands up , put them on a Mat , take away their Footing and Weaponry , then say "Look , Were Superior !" BET you if you changes it to bare Knuckled Gearless Lei Tai matches yould still win (Conditining/attributes) more often than not , but by a FAR more Narrow Margin .

In ALL Games the RULES and the FEILD determine the Victor .

 

[gjohnson5]

What Im saying dosent make sense when you apply "Fantasy Football" type Logic to it . BEING a Wrestler dosent AUTOMATICLALLY make you good at takedowns . There are plenty of GREAT Wrestlers that were never really any good at them , but FLAWLESS at Reversals and Counters ! or any number of OTHER Tactics that cold help them win a Match > hell some guys get through their whole CAREERS with JUST a Cross Faced Cradle !
.

That reminds me , I gotta go buy a tshirt that says, "I'll make you tap"

 

[MikeMartial]

Dude, if Mas Oyama or Ueshiba met the AVERAGE MMA Fighter on the street he would have slapped the Crap out of them .

You can't actually state that with any merrit, Djimbe, and you know that. That's the question of the ages...."Would so-and-so beat so-and-so?" I used to argue about Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee when I was a kid.

Thing is, we'll never know. That doesn't take away from the great masters of the past, by any means, but you can't honestly make an assumption like that.

Anyways, I'm off on a tangent. The question at hand....

No, IMO, I don't think groundfighting will become obsolete. I think it's becoming less domnant due to people developing better defense against groundfighting. But that ahrdly makes it obsolete.

To have a striker enter the ring against a striker/groundfighter would be pure suicide. You HAVE to be a well-rounded fighter these days, or you'll get toasted quick.

 

[Djimbe]

dude . He didnt say "Fedor" or "Cro Cop" or "Hunt" . He said "An MMA Fighter" . Basically ANY MMA Fighter .

The fact is that the AVERAGE guy that trains in MMA WOULD get their Asses handed to them in that situation by the 2 ppl I listed . Hell , any but the Top Ten would . And Handily .

The Problem with the MMA Fad is that every stooge that trains in it can gt it into his head hes Arlovsky or Nog .

 

[MikeMartial]

The fact is that the AVERAGE guy that trains in MMA WOULD get their Asses handed to them in that situation by the 2 ppl I listed . Hell , any but the Top Ten would . And Handily .

Like I said before, you can't actually say that, because there's no way one will ever know. No one but the top 10 MMA guys could have beat Mas Oyama? C'mon. He was a pioneer in kyokushin, no doubt. Probably one of the best. And hey, I'm a traditionalist to the core. But I'm also a realist. Athletes evolve over time; one generation is better than the next, and that can be applied to anything.

This may push a few traditionalist's buttons: MMA aside, I'm sure there's hundreds of kyokushin karateka that could wipe the floor with Sensei Oyama in this day and age. And that's style vs style. Throw in a guy who's proficient in BJJ, Sambo or any ground game, and he'd be done like dinner even sooner.

Respect the past masters for who they were and what they accomplished, but don'ty put them on a pedestal that can't be earned.

 

[Djimbe]

Im not putting ANYBODY on ANY Pedestal . Oyama used to go Dojo Storming , and MOST ppl that "Do MMA" SUCK AT FIGHTING . Most ppl that do ANY MA SUCK AT FIGHTING .

Thats just the facts , Jack .

there ARE ppl out there that get in Fights EVERY DAY from the time they first entered Grammars , and they Usu end up in Prisons , etc ... but the fact is that MOST ppl that train in MA do so bcause they SUCK at Fighting , not becaue theyre Great at it .

And as far as that "We Know More about Nutrition now ... yeah , right . I mean , MOST ppl cant take their Vitamis every day - the VAST majority of ppl - INCLUDING MAists eat like shit , man . They dont have their own Nutritionists and whatnot .\

To take my point even FURTHUR the Vast Majority of ppl that train in MMA dont even Compete , and of the ones that do the vast Majority of THEM are Tomato Cans . now , replace that with Boxers , or Wrestlers , or WHATEVER and the statement remains true . for those 50 or so guys whos Videos get Collected and Traded on the net there are THOUSANDS out their SUCKING ASS MIGHTILY .

And NONE of them would get in the Ring with a Goddamned BULL .

 

[Yarg!]

Im not putting ANYBODY on ANY Pedestal . Oyama used to go Dojo Storming , and MOST ppl that "Do MMA" SUCK AT FIGHTING . Most ppl that do ANY MA SUCK AT FIGHTING .

Thats just the facts , Jack .

there ARE ppl out there that get in Fights EVERY DAY from the time they first entered Grammars , and they Usu end up in Prisons , etc ... but the fact is that MOST ppl that train in MA do so bcause they SUCK at Fighting , not becaue theyre Great at it .

And as far as that "We Know More about Nutrition now ... yeah , right . I mean , MOST ppl cant take their Vitamis every day - the VAST majority of ppl - INCLUDING MAists eat like shit , man . They dont have their own Nutritionists and whatnot .\

To take my point even FURTHUR the Vast Majority of ppl that train in MMA dont even Compete , and of the ones that do the vast Majority of THEM are Tomato Cans . now , replace that with Boxers , or Wrestlers , or WHATEVER and the statement remains true . for those 50 or so guys whos Videos get Collected and Traded on the net there are THOUSANDS out their SUCKING ASS MIGHTILY .

And NONE of them would get in the Ring with a Goddamned BULL .

Oh Djimbe...

Theres a video of Mas Oyama taking repeated punches to the face in Kyokushin competition because he never trained for it and the other guy was cheating. (search for it, Im too lazy too).

Alot of facts about Oyama were exaggerated as well such as his stay in the mountains and for his bull fights, he had power obviously, but he also had technique. And it was his special technique verses bulls that let him win- ofcourse, ot many today will get in a ring with a bull though so you got to give him props for still going in.

I highly doubt you have really looked further into the history of MMA competition... but heres a history lesson for you. The Gracie's and their dojo storming was synonymous. They even ran an ad in the paper challenging everyone to come to their school (this was 40s-50s). And style after style after style stepped up.. Karated, Kung Fu, TKD, Capoeira etc etc etc etc and BJJ won time and time and time again. From these challange matches stemmed "Vale Tudo" which meant "Anything goes" and these were basically competitors who were using BJJ and striking, or just plain striking or Luta Livre (look it up) and so on and stepping into crappy little rings and beating the shit out of each other bare knuckle , headbutts, groin strikes, scratches...biting..eye gouges, all allowed.

Hey, why if thats not close to a real fight I don't know what is. Maybe if you're a super French dude and only fenced whenever you fought.... Anyways, needless to say the guys who had a ground game + striking won..always. These things were later banned by the government of Rio, Royce came to the states... showed BJJ to the world via an old school Vale Tudo/Gracie challange match production called UFC 1... from UFC 1 came UFC 2... then PRIDE... then SHOOTO...RINGS. And thats MMA for ya..

And don't bother comparing warriors who've passed on versus the ppl who are still alive... Thats so immature from what I've seen even Sherdog.com (the most immature MA site on the net) frowns upon it. Thats like me say "OMG HOW WOULD BRUCE LEE DO IN TODAY'S RING? OR MIYAMATO MUSASHI AND HIS TWO SWORDS LOLOLOLLROFL!". 'nuff said.

 

[Djimbe]

THE GRACIE's this THE GRACIEs that ... THE GRACIES are a bunch of Rich ppl that have nothing to do but Train in MA ALL FRIGGIN DAY LONG , theyre also a family FULL OF MALES about the same ages and have a SLEW of Sparring Partners that are ALSO So Rich that they have no Jobs and get to TRAIN ALL DAY LONG .

If your style was Poo Fling Do and you got to train all day long your whole frigin life yould be unbeatable too .

MOST ppl dont .

just because you do BJJ dosent make you any kind of Gracie .

 

[Yarg!]

ACtually only Royce and Rickson are loaded. They rest are pretty modestly living... God I hope doing BJJ doesn't turn me into a Gracie because umm... their active fighters are not top 10 ranked int he world (Renzo, Royler, Ryan) and even the pure grappling tournaments are dominated by ppl like Marcelo Garcia and Jacare teams like Alliance BJJ.. BTT...(guys that started at 13, 14, 15-even 17 and joined a school.. like a karate fighter or TKD or Kung Fu etc etc) But you knew that already , ofcourse.

 

[Kane Fan]

I said "Competitive Fighting Ruleset" not "MA Style" . that is totally to the left of my point that I was making .

explain competititve fighting ruleset
you don't mean Judo competitions?
how do you list Judo as a Martial Art and not include what it offers as a Martial Art
in Judo's competition rules submissions are legal so even under what I would recongise as a competitive fighting ruleset the point is the same

 

[Kane Fan]

If any of the strikers your talking about stands up against an MMA fighter on the street like you say, if the MMA fighter is getting his ass kicked as far striking he will take the guy down period. Now the pure striker with no ground experience how is he going to handle a ground and pound on the street or with someone with Grappling background . BTW I have seen ground and pound on the street so is not just on the cage!!. As far as Dozens of fights if you are somewhat train in boxing or Kickboxer you have a better chance of beating the crap out of any old joe out there that never had any training and cant even throw punch so what your saying doesnt make sense. Where I train lots of street brawlers have come into my dojo and get in the ring they get their ass handed to them by guys who have been training for like a 1 year. But then again the street brawler have been in "DOZENS" of fights and some are even pretty good boxers but no ground experience. That proves a point

not really I promise if I hit a grappler (even a really good one) w/out a glove on he wont be thinking about taking me down he'll be thinking about crawling away or putting his hands in front of his face so I don't hit him again
this is a problem people have a rough time with
the biggest money is in boxing for the fight games
so your not going to find a great boxer in a mma event
and when you divide atention between ground and stand up like you should do to compete mixed your not as good at striking or the ground as you would be if you focused
you can compare mthai guys and boxers to mma strikers and see that very VERY few mma guys can do what the strikefocused guys do
and the ones that have those abilities, tend to dominate
yet there is very little money in straight grappling comps, which is why the best grapplers head to mixed, that's where the cash is
so to compare great grapplers against great strikers you can't effectilvy used the mixed scene to do it cus great grapplers wind up there, but very few great strikers bother going there
so it's like comparing the best the ground game has to offer, to whatever the standup fighters had left over and decided to send
a bit weighted don't you think?
the overall point I"m making here is if your a good striker and there is nothing covering your fist, there will be no time to 'take it to the ground period'

 

[Djimbe]

explain competititve fighting ruleset
you don't mean Judo competitions?
how do you list Judo as a Martial Art and not include what it offers as a Martial Art
in Judo's competition rules submissions are legal so even under what I would recongise as a competitive fighting ruleset the point is the same

Judo's Ruleset was DESIGNED to INTENTIONALY steer Schools away from focusing TOO much on the ground . Whatts so confusing about that ? 1-2 HALF Decent Throws on CONCRETE or TILE can END an opponents Threat to you . Tying yourself up on the ground can cause Neumerous Issues that CANT be overcome . Judo didnt start as a Sport ,it STARTEd as a more effective wa to Teach MA .

So yes , there IS a difference between Judo's Syllabus and its Competitive Ruileset . The THOUGHT is that people will Train HARDER tward the Competitions , and therefore their Development will be Partially Guided by those Perameters . Are you too clouded by the current Popularity of MMA events to think Historically ? Historically , if you hit the Ground in a Fight you were DEAD ! To this day youre still going to be in SERIOUS Jeopardy unless you only get in Fights in a Vaccuum , in Competitions or at the Dojo .

 

[Kane Fan]

no I'm too clouded by you saying your talking about the competitive ruleset not the martial art then changing your story to say your talking about the martial art and not the sport
pick
but either way you pick Judo has submission grappling inovlved and you implied that it did not
are you too clouded by whatever the hell your clouded by to keep your argument straight?

 

[Djimbe]

theres nothign thats Clouding me in any way .

You just want me to be talking about the JudoCurriculum when Im not , Im talking about the Competition Ruleset , an the way that ppl train twards Rulesets .

 

[kickboxer195]

not really I promise if I hit a grappler (even a really good one) w/out a glove on he wont be thinking about taking me down he'll be thinking about crawling away or putting his hands in front of his face so I don't hit him againthis is a problem people have a rough time with
the biggest money is in boxing for the fight games
so your not going to find a great boxer in a mma event
and when you divide atention between ground and stand up like you should do to compete mixed your not as good at striking or the ground as you would be if you focused
you can compare mthai guys and boxers to mma strikers and see that very VERY few mma guys can do what the strikefocused guys do
and the ones that have those abilities, tend to dominate
yet there is very little money in straight grappling comps, which is why the best grapplers head to mixed, that's where the cash is
so to compare great grapplers against great strikers you can't effectilvy used the mixed scene to do it cus great grapplers wind up there, but very few great strikers bother going there
so it's like comparing the best the ground game has to offer, to whatever the standup fighters had left over and decided to send
a bit weighted don't you think?
the overall point I"m making here is if your a good striker and there is nothing covering your fist, there will be no time to 'take it to the ground period'

Excellent post.

 

[AEKDB]

I just want to see if this rant will go to 3 pages.

 

[Kane Fan]

but the ruleset of Judo allows submissions
do you deny this?

 

[Kane Fan]

Excellent post.

to read me is to love me

 

[Djimbe]

but the ruleset of Judo allows submissions
do you deny this?

So do san shoul rules .

Come up with one in the 30-60 seconds youre allowed and youre the man now , dawg !Youre The Man Now , Dawg !

 

[Kane Fan]

? ok

 

[Demonix]

I don't think its obsolete either. Pretty much Ground and Pound, Sprawl and Brawl, and Submission styles all work. It really just depends on what the fighter trains more on. You still can see great sub guys doing well and dominating strikers like Minotaro.

 

[KD1]

I personally think ground fighting is more effective on the street. I used to box and got my ass handed to me by a wrestler in a street fight. After that I got into jinjitsu training for a couple years so at least I am adequate on the ground. Lol, kinda funny though, Ive only been in 1 fight in the last 10 years, not like I really need it.

At the amateur level, if you can at least slip a punch or two you can take it to the ground. At top levels they are such deadly strikers that it changes the complexity and strategy a lot.

 

[MikeMartial]

I personally think ground fighting is more effective on the street. I used to box and got my ass handed to me by a wrestler in a street fight. After that I got into jinjitsu training for a couple years so at least I am adequate on the ground. Lol, kinda funny though, Ive only been in 1 fight in the last 10 years, not like I really need it.

At the amateur level, if you can at least slip a punch or two you can take it to the ground. At top levels they are such deadly strikers that it changes the complexity and strategy a lot.

Excellent post; your personal experience, and the last paragraph, sums up the whole topic perfectly.