Is America culturally arrogant?

[javaguru]

What do you think?

 

[chazk]

America has little culture , everyone except the native americans came from somewhere else.

Well I guess the usa has elvis , rock'n'roll ,breakdancing some junkfood and some pop cultural icons.

 

[lil_brah]

ignorant? yes.

 

[javaguru]

America has little culture , everyone except the native americans came from somewhere else.

Well I guess the usa has elvis , rock'n'roll ,breakdancing some junkfood and some pop cultural icons.

We have an enlightened Democracy, technically Republican, but imposing our will on old school tribal cultures wasn't a good idea.

 

[puddlemonkey]

ignorant? yes.

lol@canada having an opinion.

 

[lil_brah]

lol@canada having an opinion.

yet you (and many here) refuse to fly the stars and stripes in your profile (???)

what are you ashamed of?

 

[javaguru]

lol@canada having an opinion.

No kidding, nobody wants to build a wall to keep them out.

 

[lil_brah]

No kidding, nobody wants to build a wall to keep them out.

lol @ Germany too

 

[puddlemonkey]

yet you (and many here) refuse to fly the stars and stripes in your profile (???)

what are you ashamed of?

lol@refuse

I like the little gold piece on my flag, it matches the crowns.

 

[layinback]

america is arrogant period.

it's catching up with us..........

 

[javaguru]

lol @ Germany too

Germany is roughly the size of Ohio and they have a pwnage economy; The Mark is worth more than the dollar.

 

[puddlemonkey]

america is arrogant period.

it's catching up with us..........

says the arrogant inbred redneck.

 

[layinback]

yet you (and many here) refuse to fly the stars and stripes in your profile (???)

what are you ashamed of?

patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.


Bertrand Russell

 

[chazk]

what I do not get is america bitched and moaned at germany to tear down the berlin wall to free the people yea raw raw bullshit. Yet the u.s.a is building a wall
(fence) to keep people out .

 

[layinback]

says the arrogant inbred redneck.

says the cowardly obese middle aged x box pro

 

[puddlemonkey]

says the cowardly obese middle aged x box pro

At least you didn't call me morbidly obese.

 

[layinback]

At least you didn't call me morbidly obese.

LOLOLOLOLOL

you called me everything but a white man.


( that's an old alabama racist colloquialism )

 

[javaguru]

says the arrogant inbred redneck.

You two still feuding....can't we all get along?

 

[puddlemonkey]

You two still feuding....can't we all get along?

lol never feuding. Just showing him his role.

 

[javaguru]

lol never feuding. Just showing him his role.

I'm trying to be the peacemaker...

 

[Sub-Zero]

america doesnt give a fuck

 

[Tatyana]

What do you think?

Do you mean stuff like this?

Listen, I couldn't give a shit about what foreigners think about me calling my country the greatest in the world. For too many years I walked around Europe and South America holding my tongue because I had to. Never again, I love Europe and South America and I lived there and enjoyed every day I was there.

Bottom line, America is the greatest country this Earth has ever witnessed, we are the most powerful, most tolerant, most giving country in the world. All of that does have a price and people can talk all the shit about America they want, just know I am here and that shit will be met with Truth and Facts that can't be denied.

Never has a country had as much Military power as the Greatest Nation On Earth, America, and used it less.

Imagine if Syria, Iran, China, or North Korea traded places with America's military might. These fucking Euro's would be on their knees licking the boots of their dictator like many of them did before. They still haven't learned.

 

[layinback]

You two still feuding....can't we all get along?

puddles had a nephew who was showing signs of heterosexuality.


puddles quickly *corrected* him.

 

[JayC9]

what's truly american
basketball, the blues, gluttony

 

[stosstruppe]

America has culture?

 

[stosstruppe]

patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.


Bertrand Russell

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

~ John Stewart Mill

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Yes. What is our culture? Seems our culture is the act of continually making fun of what it used to be on VH1.
Our culture is mostly disposable, just like the money it is spawned from. Which would explain why the spirit of this country is so diluted and cynical.

 

[PICK3]

I cum from a long line of poor southern white trash.

just sayin'

 

[pintoca]

Rammstein kicks some serious ass dude.

"Ich zeige Euch wie es richtig geht..."

Song is old, the message is still valid, though. You cannot be arrogant with something you don't have

 

[pintoca]

Germany is roughly the size of Ohio and they have a pwnage economy; The Mark is worth more than the dollar.

The what??? is worth more than the dollar

 

[Tatyana]

The what??? is worth more than the dollar

I think he means the Euro.

The pound is worth more right now too.

There are a lot of great things about the US, I think the issue for a lot of countries is that there does seem to be quite a bit of ignorance about other countries.

For example, that Germany still uses deutschmarks.

 

[redsamurai]

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

~ John Stewart Mill

There are many different ways to fight something than just pointing a gun at it. Take the war on terror..........he who has the most brains is going to win that one. The U.S could come out that we've developed stars wars AT-AT walkers...........they won't help us win.

 

[milo hobgoblin]

More importantly.. does it matter??

And if we are so culturally ignorant.. why does everyone else try and copy us?

 

[Tatyana]

More importantly.. does it matter??

And if we are so culturally ignorant.. why does everyone else try and copy us?

Who is everyone and what are they trying to copy?

 

[crazyjoe]

What do you think?

I didn't know Steven Baldwin was the lead singer of a band.

 

[EricG]

Who is everyone and what are they trying to copy?

+1

When it comes down to it every 1st world country are very similar, sure there are differences like languages and some general social beliefs, but the similarities that run throughtout far outway the first.

In every country there is rich, poor, ignorant, inteligent, arrogant. More importantly every person in different country picks up ''stereo types" (beliefs, fashion, history w/e) from other countries. For example, some from Europe might run around with there six shooter cap guns at 5 and act like an American cowboy, or any country men likes Russian Models, or enjoying British Tea. The list goes on forever.

Do most Americans, Canadians, British etc agree with everything there Government does? Do all Americans have the same social beliefs as one another? No.

There are big Government differences but were all alike more then some would like to believe.

Anywho, I don't care were someone comes from or judge there country by it, the person and who he/she represents is what matters most.

-Eric

 

[javaguru]

The what??? is worth more than the dollar

Euro..lol..I had a German chick correct my grammar in early 2002.. same year the mark was withdrawn from circulation. I was speaking the 1918 German my grandfather spoke.

 

[heavy_duty]

Americans think its only Americans on the internet LOL

 

[javaguru]

Americans think its only Americans on the internet LOL

Or in the world....as GW said,"They're all Muslims( in Iraq.)"

 

[superqt4u2nv]

Does a bear shit in the woods?

 

[javaguru]

Does a bear shit it in the woods?

Do Canadians even matter....except for their oil?

 

[Smurfy]

Americans think its only Americans on the internet LOL

as far as I know it is

 

[Tatyana]

Do Canadians even matter....except for their oil?

I would think water and Ogallala aquifer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogallala_Aquifer

 

[javaguru]

I would think water and Ogallala aquifer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogallala_Aquifer

Canada is America Light...half the Calories and none of the flavor....

 

[superqt4u2nv]

Canada is America Light...half the Calories and none of the flavor....

Please you know I got all kinds of flavor

 

[redsamurai]

Does a bear shit in the woods?

reminds me of a joke........a bear and a rabbit are side by side in the forrest taking a shit, bear asks rabbit "does shit stick to your fur?"......the rabbit contemplated for a moment and than replied "no, I don't beleive so"...........lucky you said the bear, who than proceeded to wipe his ass with the rabbit..........the end.



all time favorite of mine.

 

[superqt4u2nv]

reminds me of a joke........a bear and a rabbit are side by side in the forrest taking a shit, bear asks rabbit "does shit stick to your fur?"......the rabbit contemplated for a moment and than replied "no, I don't beleive so"...........lucky you said the bear, who than proceeded to wipe his ass with the rabbit..........the end.



all time favorite of mine.

OMG that is one of my favortie jokes it is from Eddy Murphy delirious.

 

[redsamurai]

OMG that is one of my favortie jokes it is from Eddy Murphy delirious.

no shit?? I did not know that. A friend told that to me years ago.......never told me it was an eddy murphy joke. That doesn't sound like a joke a comedian would tell during a standup act though......?

 

[jd_uk]

Quite simply, yes.

 

[digimon7068]

America has little culture , everyone except the native americans came from somewhere else.

Well I guess the usa has elvis , rock'n'roll ,breakdancing some junkfood and some pop cultural icons.

yeah. . .ummmmm. . .you forgot one. . .fucking FREEDOM!! we invented the shit and we protect it with our lives. . .everyday. . .show me another country that is THAT serious about their "culture". . .bunch of fucking pussies wagging their fingers at us while we do ALL of the dirty work. . .don't like it?? fuck you!

we have a constitution and a way of life the the rest of the fucking world is envious of. . .they can say what they want. . .but they all know it's true. . .without freedom, you can take all that "culture" bullshit and shove it right up your ass. . .outside of the united states only the elite get to enjoy all of the so-called culture. . .what the fuck good is it if you're only exposure to it is in a fucking book for chrissakes??!! here. . .anyone can enjoy ANYTHING that this country has to offer. . .you want something?? all you gotta do is get off your dead-ass and work for it. . .show me another place that even comes close.

*steps down from soap box*

 

[jd_uk]

yeah. . .ummmmm. . .you forgot one. . .fucking FREEDOM!! we invented the shit and we protect it with our lives. . .everyday. . .show me another country that is THAT serious about their "culture". . .bunch of fucking pussies wagging their fingers at us while we do ALL of the dirty work. . .don't like it?? fuck you!

we have a constitution and a way of life the the rest of the fucking world is envious of. . .they can say what they want. . .but they all know it's true. . .without freedom, you can take all that "culture" bullshit and shove it right up your ass. . .outside of the united states only the elite get to enjoy all of the so-called culture. . .what the fuck good is it if you're only exposure to it is in a fucking book for chrissakes??!! here. . .anyone can enjoy ANYTHING that this country has to offer. . .you want something?? all you gotta do is get off your dead-ass and work for it. . .show me another place that even comes close.

*steps down from soap box*

I'm not so sure Americans feel any more free than people from many other countries in the world.

 

[rudy76]

America is overly proud - not arrogant.

The difference is obvious when you go to a ball game and listen to or see how many music / commentary references are made to war time, the civil war, WWII etc.

I sort of like it - it makes you you feel joined even if you aren't and I'm really not but I can get sucked in like everyone else.

 

[digimon7068]

I'm not so sure Americans feel any more free than people from many other countries in the world.

if they don't "feel" it. . .it's because they are lazy and have taken it for granted for so long that they do not have a clue how good they have it. . .most americans wouldn't last five minutes in any other country. . .most of the "rights" that they enjoy everyday are actually only "privileges". . .that they would not have anywhere else but here. . .

 

[digimon7068]

I'm not so sure Americans feel any more free than people from many other countries in the world.

oh. . .and i love the british and i hate the french. . .and the mamacita in your ava has a smokin' body. . .that is all. . .

 

[redsamurai]

ok, you need to get out of the country more often bro. Your assertion that only rich people in other countries get to experience their country's culture is pointedly absurd and unfounded. I don't know where you've been, maybe some of the old soviet block countries.........but in Germany, Italy, spain......where I've been the most...........the middle class people have alot more fun than middle class people here. They just have different idea's of fun. They get out more........they don't sit at home at marvel at their brand new 1080p LCD.......which admittedly in alot of those countries.....the middle class can't afford. But I assure the average middle class guy in the above mentioned countries in Europe is having more fun and getting laid by cooler and hotter chicks than the average middle class guy here in the States. I guess it comes down to banging hot chicks vs. xbox live on a brand new high def screen. lol

And as for freedom.........why would it be different living in France or England or Germany? I'm pretty sure they're free now too. You could argue that they may pay more taxes or some shit like that..........but as far as freedoms go, shit.......how about amsterdam? They're alot more free than we are.......

So remember.......you're only free to do something as long as Uncle Sam can find a way to regulate it....ie make money off of it. If he can't find a way to legally tax something.......so sorry, you're fucked.

yeah. . .ummmmm. . .you forgot one. . .fucking FREEDOM!! we invented the shit and we protect it with our lives. . .everyday. . .show me another country that is THAT serious about their "culture". . .bunch of fucking pussies wagging their fingers at us while we do ALL of the dirty work. . .don't like it?? fuck you!

we have a constitution and a way of life the the rest of the fucking world is envious of. . .they can say what they want. . .but they all know it's true. . .without freedom, you can take all that "culture" bullshit and shove it right up your ass. . .outside of the united states only the elite get to enjoy all of the so-called culture. . .what the fuck good is it if you're only exposure to it is in a fucking book for chrissakes??!! here. . .anyone can enjoy ANYTHING that this country has to offer. . .you want something?? all you gotta do is get off your dead-ass and work for it. . .show me another place that even comes close.

*steps down from soap box*

 

[rykertest]

Is America culturally arrogant?

No, those that come here and expect US to cater to THEM are. When in rome do as the romans do, not complain because they don't recognize holy goat day like your village in domu-click-click-aboogoo does.

 

[digimon7068]

ok, you need to get out of the country more often bro.

everywhere i go (outside of the u.s.) i am faced with certain preconceived notions as a result of my lineage. . .i have neither the time, nor the strength, nor the patience to overcome those prejudices at this point in my life. . .i'll stay here. . .and spend my hard earned money here. . .and i stand by every word i said. . .

 

[digimon7068]

But I assure the average middle class guy in the above mentioned countries in Europe is having more fun and getting laid by cooler and hotter chicks than the average middle class guy here in the States.

oh. . .and the "average middle class guy" in all those other countries was born into the middle class and has a better chance of getting hit by lightening than escaping the bonds of middle-classdom. . .here, you can be born into the middle class (or even the lower middle class) and wind up being president of the united states. . .ask bill clinton. . .NO ONE HAS THE FREEDOM THAT WE DO. . ..PERIOD. . .and freedom is expensive. . .the cost in both money and lives is, at times, significant, but if there's a better way, i haven't seen it yet. . .

 

[redsamurai]

everywhere i go (outside of the u.s.) i am faced with certain preconceived notions as a result of my lineage. . .i have neither the time, nor the strength, nor the patience to overcome those prejudices at this point in my life. . .i'll stay here. . .and spend my hard earned money here. . .and i stand by every word i said. . .

I don't know, I've never experienced that kind of a reception by foreigners........but I know many that have. Maybe it's because I don't act like the typical american wherever I go......but people, even in middle class suburbs that don't often see foreigners......treat me just fine. Maybe because I'm 270 pounds.......who knows. But I will admit that the French are annoying........but they've been annoying english speaking people since the 12 century. Of all the people that should be somewhat more tolerable of americans........you'd think it would be them.

 

[digimon7068]

I don't know, I've never experienced that kind of a reception by foreigners........but I know many that have. Maybe it's because I don't act like the typical american wherever I go......but people, even in middle class suburbs that don't often see foreigners......treat me just fine. Maybe because I'm 270 pounds.......who knows. But I will admit that the French are annoying........but they've been annoying english speaking people since the 12 century. Of all the people that should be somewhat more tolerable of americans........you'd think it would be them.

i love you man. . .

 

[redsamurai]

oh. . .and the "average middle class guy" in all those other countries was born into the middle class and has a better chance of getting hit by lightening than escaping the bonds of middle-classdom. . .here, you can be born into the middle class (or even the lower middle class) and wind up being president of the united states. . .ask bill clinton. . .NO ONE HAS THE FREEDOM THAT WE DO. . ..PERIOD. . .and freedom is expensive. . .the cost in both money and lives is, at times, significant, but if there's a better way, i haven't seen it yet. . .

There are exceptions, maybe more so here in the U.S than anywhere.........but you gotta understand, Bill Clinton became a crook to get where he is. I can say that even though I wish he was still president. But I think you're kidding yourself if you think there isn't a glass ceiling EVEN for the average middle class white guy........at least the honest ones. To get to the level you're talking about, the personal ethical compromises you have to make are so staggering nobody wants to even hold the thought for more than a few seconds........otherwise we'd have to take a good long hard look at our system and who's running it and to what end. But that's another discussion entirely. But I will hold fast to the assertion that to become wealthy, not rich, but "wealthy".....in this country, means to make so many compromises to your personal integrity that to me at least........it's unfathomable.

 

[digimon7068]

There are exceptions, maybe more so here in the U.S than anywhere.........but you gotta understand, Bill Clinton became a crook to get where he is. I can say that even though I wish he was still president. But I think you're kidding yourself if you think there isn't a glass ceiling EVEN for the average middle class white guy........at least the honest ones. To get to the level you're talking about, the personal ethical compromises you have to make are so staggering nobody wants to even hold the thought for more than a few seconds........otherwise we'd have to take a good long hard look at our system and who's running it and to what end. But that's another discussion entirely. But I will hold fast to the assertion that to become wealthy, not rich, but "wealthy".....in this country, means to make so many compromises to your personal integrity that to me at least........it's unfathomable.

like i said. . .i love you man. . .maybe it's because you weigh 270 pounds (and i only weigh like 220). . .but who cares??

 

[gjohnson5]

That's very flat and un-inclusive point of view. Especially in terms of music. Those musics which have evolved here in America should be considered American even though they have Europeak or African influences. So folk , jazz , blues , R&B , funk, country, pop, rock&roll , metal, rap, hip-hop and the histories or musicology as we call it associated with those is also American

The city of New Orleans in itself is a repository of culture (well I hope people are still trying to preserve it) from music , art, dance , cooking, clothing and costumes to language and histories.

I think the problem with most Americans is that they do really spend any time looking into their own ancestory. So being separated from their own cultures , it's easy to overlook or simply ignore other cultures. I believe this is the nature of this post

America has little culture , everyone except the native americans came from somewhere else.

Well I guess the usa has elvis , rock'n'roll ,breakdancing some junkfood and some pop cultural icons.

 

[gjohnson5]

LOL

Canada is America Light...half the Calories and none of the flavor....

 

[redsamurai]

like i said. . .i love you man. . .maybe it's because you weigh 270 pounds (and i only weigh like 220). . .but who cares??

psssst.......I should be about 250-255.......'tween you and me nigga!

 

[gjohnson5]

Yeah but what's his bodyfat %?
That one cultural thing we can attribute to America

we're all fat

like i said. . .i love you man. . .maybe it's because you weigh 270 pounds (and i only weigh like 220). . .but who cares??

 

[digimon7068]

Yeah but what's his bodyfat %?
That one cultural thing we can attribute to America

we're all fat

amen. . .i look forward to fall each year so i can put my shirt back on. . .and tie on the damn feed bag!

 

[gjohnson5]

Size matters unless you need oxygen everytime you take a few steps, LOL

Just fuckin' with ya Red

amen. . .i look forward to fall each year so i can put my shirt back on. . .and tie on the damn feed bag!

 

[redsamurai]

Size matters unless you need oxygen everytime you take a few steps, LOL

Just fuckin' with ya Red

Hey, I admitted I should be about 15 pounds lighter.

 

[Tatyana]

oh. . .and the "average middle class guy" in all those other countries was born into the middle class and has a better chance of getting hit by lightening than escaping the bonds of middle-classdom. . .here, you can be born into the middle class (or even the lower middle class) and wind up being president of the united states. . .ask bill clinton. . .NO ONE HAS THE FREEDOM THAT WE DO. . ..PERIOD. . .and freedom is expensive. . .the cost in both money and lives is, at times, significant, but if there's a better way, i haven't seen it yet. . .

No offense hun, but I think you are demonstrating the 'cultural arrogance' that this thread is about.

Just a few things:

Is grass decriminalised or a minor drug infraction in the US?

Is prostitution legal?

Can you drive at any speed limit you want on the motorways?

Are steroids 'legal' or not criminalised?

Do you have nudity on television, normal magazines, daily newspapers?

Do you have 24 hour liquor license laws?

This is an odd 'freedom' but anyone over the age of 60 in the UK gets a free bus pass, and they have the freedom to roam anywhere in the country.

Similarly, if you like outdoor pursuits, there are so many footpaths in the UK, you have the freedom to roam across a lot of private lands and through farms etc.

There are also some issues around healthcare, but I know that is opening up a can of worms.

These are only a few things off the top of my head, I am sure there are some areas where the US experiences greater freedom, but other countries also have areas of freedom that are not in the US.

 

[digimon7068]

No offense hun, but I think you are demonstrating the 'cultural arrogance' that this thread is about.

Just a few things:

Is grass decriminalised or a minor drug infraction in the US?

Is prostitution legal?

Can you drive at any speed limit you want on the motorways?

Are steroids 'legal' or not criminalised?

Do you have nudity on television, normal magazines, daily newspapers?

Do you have 24 hour liquor license laws?

This is an odd 'freedom' but anyone over the age of 60 in the UK gets a free bus pass, and they have the freedom to roam anywhere in the country.

Similarly, if you like outdoor pursuits, there are so many footpaths in the UK, you have the freedom to roam across a lot of private lands and through farms etc.

There are also some issues around healthcare, but I know that is opening up a can of worms.

These are only a few things off the top of my head, I am sure there are some areas where the US experiences greater freedom, but other countries also have areas of freedom that are not in the US.

freedom means different things to different people. . .you're entitled to your opinion. . .in large part you can thank us for that. . .

 

[javaguru]

These are only a few things off the top of my head, I am sure there are some areas where the US experiences greater freedom, but other countries also have areas of freedom that are not in the US.

Supplements

 

[Tatyana]

Supplements

Yes, being able to purchase a protein bar at a petrol station was one of those culture shock experieces for me.

 

[javaguru]

Yes, being able to purchase a protein bar at a petrol station was one of those culture shock experieces for me.

As I understand it, you also still have a State sponsored religion that you pay for...The movie Elizabeth was on today....

 

[Tatyana]

As I understand it, you also still have a State sponsored religion that you pay for...The movie Elizabeth was on today....

The Royal Family is VERY expensive, but I think they bring in a few tourist quid/dollars

 

[javaguru]

The Royal Family is VERY expensive, but I think they bring in a few tourist quid/dollars

Do you think it covers for the prince flying his Chinook as a drunk taxi for a bachelor party to his gf's parent's farm?

 

[Tatyana]

Do you think it covers for the prince flying his Chinook as a drunk taxi for a bachelor party to his gf's parent's farm?

Mate, you should SEE the bills.

It is a bit of an issue of contention for a lot of English people.

The debate about getting rid of the Royal family comes up at least every two years.

I have seen a few of the budgets laid out before, it is quite public, I am sure you could see what 'salary' the queen draws if you google it.

 

[javaguru]

Mate, you should SEE the bills.

It is a bit of an issue of contention for a lot of English people.

The debate about getting rid of the Royal family comes up at least every two years.

I have seen a few of the budgets laid out before, it is quite public, I am sure you could see what 'salary' the queen draws if you google it.

We should complain about it over a pint at the pub. Then rough up some opposing football fans.


Off season of course....

PS Manchester United kicks ass.... I explained that to some of my friends when they asked what that T-shirt worn by an exchange student meant.

 

[javaguru]

Yes, being able to purchase a protein bar at a petrol station was one of those culture shock experieces for me.

That's how we identified the German infiltrators during the "Battle of the Bulge," no American would say "petrol."

 

[Tatyana]

That's how we identified the German infiltrators during the "Battle of the Bulge," no American would say "petrol."

We made them pronounce Leischeshire.

 

[javaguru]

We made them pronounce Leischeshire.

All you had to ask was,"Who won the last world series." That's how you identified the American...we're a simple people.

 

[stosstruppe]

Do you think it covers for the prince flying his Chinook as a drunk taxi for a bachelor party to his gf's parent's farm?

Complete non-story by one of the UK's fish and chip wrapper "newspapers" based on posts from the AAC personnel on a UK army forum I frequent. Just some arsehole with an axe to grind reporting it.

Consider we have several hundred MPs' who each claim anywhere between $150'000-400'000 in "living expenses"

& I'm quite a fan of the Royal family - unlike politicians their sons actually undertake military training, are actively involved with the armed forces, and some even go on operations (Princes' Philip, Andrew & Harry).

 

[javaguru]

Complete non-story by one of the UK's fish and chip wrapper "newspapers" based on posts from the AAC personnel on a UK army forum I frequent. Just some arsehole with an axe to grind reporting it.

Consider we have several hundred MPs' who each claim anywhere between $150'000-400'000 in "living expenses"

& I'm quite a fan of the Royal family - unlike politicians their sons actually undertake military training, are actively involved with the armed forces, and some even go on operations (Princes' Philip, Andrew & Harry).

I appreciate they serve in the military. However, you know the Prince is never walking point in Afghanistan or Iraq.

There was a time under the Roman Republic when candidates for office would tear open their tunics and show their battle scars to prove they had shed blood for Rome.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

yeah. . .ummmmm. . .you forgot one. . .fucking FREEDOM!! we invented the shit and we protect it with our lives. . .everyday. . .show me another country that is THAT serious about their "culture". . .bunch of fucking pussies wagging their fingers at us while we do ALL of the dirty work. . .don't like it?? fuck you!

we have a constitution and a way of life the the rest of the fucking world is envious of. . .they can say what they want. . .but they all know it's true. . .without freedom, you can take all that "culture" bullshit and shove it right up your ass. . .outside of the united states only the elite get to enjoy all of the so-called culture. . .what the fuck good is it if you're only exposure to it is in a fucking book for chrissakes??!! here. . .anyone can enjoy ANYTHING that this country has to offer. . .you want something?? all you gotta do is get off your dead-ass and work for it. . .show me another place that even comes close.

*steps down from soap box*

Define "freedom". Seems a lot of what our forefathers created either already has been or is being subverted/destroyed.

 

[binö]

Do you mean stuff like this?

lol how the hell is an englishman gonna talk shit?
look how many cultures and civilizatios you have destroyed, raped and pillaged over the centuries...and you have the gall to try to call us out? nigga please.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

That's how we identified the German infiltrators during the "Battle of the Bulge," no American would say "petrol."

Stupid Germans. They used up all the petrol burning millions of Jews.

 

[binö]

No offense hun, but I think you are demonstrating the 'cultural arrogance' that this thread is about.

Just a few things:

Is grass decriminalised or a minor drug infraction in the US?

Is prostitution legal?

Can you drive at any speed limit you want on the motorways?

Are steroids 'legal' or not criminalised?

Do you have nudity on television, normal magazines, daily newspapers?

Do you have 24 hour liquor license laws?

This is an odd 'freedom' but anyone over the age of 60 in the UK gets a free bus pass, and they have the freedom to roam anywhere in the country.

Similarly, if you like outdoor pursuits, there are so many footpaths in the UK, you have the freedom to roam across a lot of private lands and through farms etc.

There are also some issues around healthcare, but I know that is opening up a can of worms.

These are only a few things off the top of my head, I am sure there are some areas where the US experiences greater freedom, but other countries also have areas of freedom that are not in the US.

meh, i think you can be pretty arrogant too.
maybe i'm just feeling pissy, but it seems you are always talking shit about america and americans.
little jabs here and there.
but, here is a refutation:
-grass, in certain states where the majority of people have voted in favor, is decriminalized. in more conservative states, it is a misd for possession.
-prositution is legal in nevada, and in certain states it is not stricly enforced
-no, you cannot recklessly speed. freedom does not mean free to kill and main people at rediculous high speed.
-steroids are illegal, as they are in the majority of western countries
-nudity pretty much where ever, some would say too much
-in large cities booze is served 24/7

lol at footpaths...there is thousands and thousands of miles of foot trails in the usa. more foot paths in one state than in the whole of england i'd wager.
so i don't see where you are going with that.
your post was weak sorry

 

[javaguru]

Stupid Germans. They used up all the petrol burning Jews.

They did divert rail resources that could have been used for military matters to transport Jews and other "undesirables" when they could have been used for military assets. Once the USA was in the war they had no hope of winning.

 

[binö]

They did divert rail resources that could have been used for military matters to transport Jews and other "undesirables" when they could have been used for military assets. Once the USA was in the war they had no hope of winning.

fuck it, we shoulda cut a deal with the germans for the jews...they give us the jews we'll stay outta euroland.
look at all the gratitude we get from those we helped out.
fuck them

 

[javaguru]

fuck it, we shoulda cut a deal with the germans for the jews...they give us the jews we'll stay outta euroland.
look at all the gratitude we get from those we helped out.
fuck them

Let me wax cynical and claim our involvement was primarily economic. Having a socialist country controlling all of Western Europe and a substantial portion of Eastern Europe wasn't seen as an advantageous position for the U.S. economy. A fragmented Europe was more economically attractive. The Euro is beating up the dollar.

 

[binö]

Let me wax cynical and claim our involvement was primarily economic. Having a socialist country controlling all of Western Europe and a substantial portion of Eastern Europe wasn't seen as an advantageous position for the U.S. economy. A fragmented Europe was more economically attractive. The Euro is beating up the dollar.

i wonder how long the germans coulda held it together.
all those nationalties and ethniticties...they woulda constantly been causing problems.
never woulda lasted

 

[javaguru]

i wonder how long the germans coulda held it together.
all those nationalties and ethniticties...they woulda constantly been causing problems.
never woulda lasted

They couldn't; Not creating the Ukraine as a separate state from the Soviet Union was a major mistake that led to the defeat in the East. That's one example...

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

They did divert rail resources that could have been used for military matters to transport Jews and other "undesirables" when they could have been used for military assets. Once the USA was in the war they had no hope of winning.

It's kind've a wash considering the war effort the Jews contributed in the camps. Although they did devote a lot of resources to them that perhaps soldiers had a better need for. I doubt having the Jews free about Germany would've helped their war effort either though. Maybe if Hitler went about rounding them up more selectively.

 

[javaguru]

It's kind've a wash considering the war effort the Jews contributed in the camps. Although they did devote a lot of resources to them that perhaps soldiers had a better need for. I doubt having the Jews free about Germany would've helped their war effort either though. Maybe if Hitler went about rounding them up more selectively.

In the late 40's when when Israel was formed they imported weapons from anywhere. They purchased captured German arms, Mauser 98's built at Skoda by slave labor and they realized the sights were bent by the slave laborers and not accurate.You get what you pay for some of the time...

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

In the late 40's when when Israel was formed they imported weapons from anywhere. They purchased captured German arms, Mauser 98's built at Skoda by slave labor and they realized the sights were bent by the slave laborers and not accurate.You get what you pay for some of the time...

Too bad this didn't work out-

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Zionism and the Third Reich
by Mark Weber

Early in 1935, a passenger ship bound for Haifa in Palestine left the German port of Bremerhaven. Its stern bore the Hebrew letters for its name, "Tel Aviv," while a swastika banner fluttered from the mast. And although the ship was Zionist-owned, its captain was a National Socialist Party member. Many years later a traveler aboard the ship recalled this symbolic combination as a "metaphysical absurdity."1 Absurd or not, this is but one vignette from a little-known chapter of history: The wide-ranging collaboration between Zionism and Hitler's Third Reich.
Common Aims

Over the years, people in many different countries have wrestled with the "Jewish question": that is, what is the proper role of Jews in non-Jewish society? During the 1930s, Jewish Zionists and German National Socialists shared similar views on how to deal with this perplexing issue. They agreed that Jews and Germans were distinctly different nationalities, and that Jews did not belong in Germany. Jews living in the Reich were therefore to be regarded not as "Germans of the Jewish faith," but rather as members of a separate national community. Zionism (Jewish nationalism) also implied an obligation by Zionist Jews to resettle in Palestine, the "Jewish homeland." They could hardly regard themselves as sincere Zionists and simultaneously claim equal rights in Germany or any other "foreign" country.

Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, maintained that anti-Semitism is not an aberration, but a natural and completely understandable response by non-Jews to alien Jewish behavior and attitudes. The only solution, he argued, is for Jews to recognize reality and live in a separate state of their own. "The Jewish question exists wherever Jews live in noticeable numbers," he wrote in his most influential work, The Jewish State. "Where it does not exist, it is brought in by arriving Jews ... I believe I understand anti-Semitism, which is a very complex phenomenon. I consider this development as a Jew, without hate or fear." The Jewish question, he maintained, is not social or religious. "It is a national question. To solve it we must, above all, make it an international political issue ..." Regardless of their citizenship, Herzl insisted, Jews constitute not merely a religious community, but a nationality, a people, a Volk.2 Zionism, wrote Herzl, offered the world a welcome "final solution of the Jewish question."3

Six months after Hitler came to power, the Zionist Federation of Germany (by far the largest Zionist group in the country) submitted a detailed memorandum to the new government that reviewed German-Jewish relations and formally offered Zionist support in "solving" the vexing "Jewish question." The first step, it suggested, had to be a frank recognition of fundamental national differences: 4

Zionism has no illusions about the difficulty of the Jewish condition, which consists above all in an abnormal occupational pattern and in the fault of an intellectual and moral posture not rooted in one's own tradition. Zionism recognized decades ago that as a result of the assimilationist trend, symptoms of deterioration were bound to appear ...

Zionism believes that the rebirth of the national life of a people, which is now occurring in Germany through the emphasis on its Christian and national character, must also come about in the Jewish national group. For the Jewish people, too, national origin, religion, common destiny and a sense of its uniqueness must be of decisive importance in the shaping of its existence. This means that the egotistical individualism of the liberal era must be overcome and replaced with a sense of community and collective responsibility ...

We believe it is precisely the new [National Socialist] Germany that can, through bold resoluteness in the handling of the Jewish question, take a decisive step toward overcoming a problem which, in truth, will have to be dealt with by most European peoples ...

Our acknowledgment of Jewish nationality provides for a clear and sincere relationship to the German people and its national and racial realities. Precisely because we do not wish to falsify these fundamentals, because we, too, are against mixed marriage and are for maintaining the purity of the Jewish group and reject any trespasses in the cultural domain, we -- having been brought up in the German language and German culture -- can show an interest in the works and values of German culture with admiration and internal sympathy ...

For its practical aims, Zionism hopes to be able to win the collaboration of even a government fundamentally hostile to Jews, because in dealing with the Jewish question not sentimentalities are involved but a real problem whose solution interests all peoples and at the present moment especially the German people ...

Boycott propaganda -- such as is currently being carried on against Germany in many ways -- is in essence un-Zionist, because Zionism wants not to do battle but to convince and to build ...

We are not blind to the fact that a Jewish question exists and will continue to exist. From the abnormal situation of the Jews severe disadvantages result for them, but also scarcely tolerable conditions for other peoples.

The Federation's paper, the Jüdische Rundschau ("Jewish Review"), proclaimed the same message: "Zionism recognizes the existence of a Jewish problem and desires a far-reaching and constructive solution. For this purpose Zionism wishes to obtain the assistance of all peoples, whether pro- or anti-Jewish, because, in its view, we are dealing here with a concrete rather than a sentimental problem, the solution of which all peoples are interested."5 A young Berlin rabbi, Joachim Prinz, who later settled in the United States and became head of the American Jewish Congress, wrote in his 1934 book, Wir Juden ("We Jews"), that the National Socialist revolution in Germany meant "Jewry for the Jews." He explained: "No subterfuge can save us now. In place of assimilation we desire a new concept: recognition of the Jewish nation and Jewish race." 6
Active Collaboration

On this basis of their similar ideologies about ethnicity and nationhood, National Socialists and Zionists worked together for what each group believed was in its own national interest. As a result, the Hitler government vigorously supported Zionism and Jewish emigration to Palestine from 1933 until 1940-1941, when the Second World War prevented extensive collaboration.

Even as the Third Reich became more entrenched, many German Jews, probably a majority, continued to regard themselves, often with considerable pride, as Germans first. Few were enthusiastic about pulling up roots to begin a new life in far-away Palestine. Nevertheless, more and more German Jews turned to Zionism during this period. Until late 1938, the Zionist movement flourished in Germany under Hitler. The circulation of the Zionist Federation's bi-weekly Jüdische Rundschau grew enormously. Numerous Zionist books were published. "Zionist work was in full swing" in Germany during those years, the Encyclopaedia Judaica notes. A Zionist convention held in Berlin in 1936 reflected "in its composition the vigorous party life of German Zionists."7

The SS was particularly enthusiastic in its support for Zionism. An internal June 1934 SS position paper urged active and wide-ranging support for Zionism by the government and the Party as the best way to encourage emigration of Germany's Jews to Palestine. This would require increased Jewish self-awareness. Jewish schools, Jewish sports leagues, Jewish cultural organizations -- in short, everything that would encourage this new consciousness and self-awareness - should be promoted, the paper recommended.8

SS officer Leopold von Mildenstein and Zionist Federation official Kurt Tuchler toured Palestine together for six months to assess Zionist development there. Based on his firsthand observations, von Mildenstein wrote a series of twelve illustrated articles for the important Berlin daily Der Angriff that appeared in late 1934 under the heading "A Nazi Travels to Palestine." The series expressed great admiration for the pioneering spirit and achievements of the Jewish settlers. Zionist self-development, von Mildenstein wrote, had produced a new kind of Jew. He praised Zionism as a great benefit for both the Jewish people and the entire world. A Jewish homeland in Palestine, he wrote in his concluding article, "pointed the way to curing a centuries-long wound on the body of the world: the Jewish question." Der Angriff issued a special medal, with a Swastika on one side and a Star of David on the other, to commemorate the joint SS-Zionist visit. A few months after the articles appeared, von Mildenstein was promoted to head the Jewish affairs department of the SS security service in order to support Zionist migration and development more effectively. 9

The official SS newspaper, Das Schwarze Korps, proclaimed its support for Zionism in a May 1935 front-page editorial: "The time may not be too far off when Palestine will again be able to receive its sons who have been lost to it for more than a thousand years. Our good wishes, together with official goodwill, go with them."10 Four months later, a similar article appeared in the SS paper: 11

The recognition of Jewry as a racial community based on blood and not on religion leads the German government to guarantee without reservation the racial separateness of this community. The government finds itself in complete agreement with the great spiritual movement within Jewry, the so-called Zionism, with its recognition of the solidarity of Jewry around the world and its rejection of all assimilationist notions. On this basis, Germany undertakes measures that will surely play a significant role in the future in the handling of the Jewish problem around the world.

A leading German shipping line began direct passenger liner service from Hamburg to Haifa, Palestine, in October 1933 providing "strictly kosher food on its ships, under the supervision of the Hamburg rabbinate." 12

With official backing, Zionists worked tirelessly to "reeducate" Germany's Jews. As American historian Francis Nicosia put it in his 1985 survey, The Third Reich and the Palestine Question: "Zionists were encouraged to take their message to the Jewish community, to collect money, to show films on Palestine and generally to educate German Jews about Palestine. There was considerable pressure to teach Jews in Germany to cease identifying themselves as Germans and to awaken a new Jewish national identity in them." 13

In an interview after the war, the former head of the Zionist Federation of Germany, Dr. Hans Friedenthal, summed up the situation: "The Gestapo did everything in those days to promote emigration, particularly to Palestine. We often received their help when we required anything from other authorities regarding preparations for emigration." 14

At the September 1935 National Socialist Party Congress, the Reichstag adopted the so-called "Nuremberg laws" that prohibited marriages and sexual relations between Jews and Germans and, in effect, proclaimed the Jews an alien minority nationality. A few days later the Zionist Jüdische Rundschau editorially welcomed the new measures: 15

Germany ... is meeting the demands of the World Zionist Congress when it declares the Jews now living in Germany to be a national minority. Once the Jews have been stamped a national minority it is again possible to establish normal relations between the German nation and Jewry. The new laws give the Jewish minority in Germany its own cultural life, its own national life. In future it will be able to shape its own schools, its own theatre, and its own sports associations. In short, it can create its own future in all aspects of national life ...

Germany has given the Jewish minority the opportunity to live for itself, and is offering state protection for this separate life of the Jewish minority: Jewry's process of growth into a nation will thereby be encouraged and a contribution will be made to the establishment of more tolerable relations between the two nations.

Georg Kareski, the head of both the "Revisionist" Zionist State Organization and the Jewish Cultural League, and former head of the Berlin Jewish Community, declared in an interview with the Berlin daily Der Angriff at the end of 1935: 16

For many years I have regarded a complete separation of the cultural affairs of the two peoples [Jews and Germans] as a pre-condition for living together without conflict... I have long supported such a separation, provided it is founded on respect for the alien nationality. The Nuremberg Laws ... seem to me, apart from their legal provisions, to conform entirely with this desire for a separate life based on mutual respect... This interruption of the process of dissolution in many Jewish communities, which had been promoted through mixed marriages, is therefore, from a Jewish point of view, entirely welcome.

Zionist leaders in other countries echoed these views. Stephen S. Wise, president of the American Jewish Congress and the World Jewish Congress, told a New York rally in June 1938: "I am not an American citizen of the Jewish faith, I am a Jew... Hitler was right in one thing. He calls the Jewish people a race and we are a race." 17

The Interior Ministry's Jewish affairs specialist, Dr. Bernhard Lösener, expressed support for Zionism in an article that appeared in a November 1935 issue of the official Reichsverwaltungsblatt: 18

If the Jews already had their own state in which the majority of them were settled, then the Jewish question could be regarded as completely resolved today, also for the Jews themselves. The least amount of opposition to the ideas underlying the Nuremberg Laws have been shown by the Zionists, because they realize at once that these laws represent the only correct solution for the Jewish people as well. For each nation must have its own state as the outward expression of its particular nationhood.

In cooperation with the German authorities, Zionist groups organized a network of some forty camps and agricultural centers throughout Germany where prospective settlers were trained for their new lives in Palestine. Although the Nuremberg Laws forbid Jews from displaying the German flag, Jews were specifically guaranteed the right to display the blue and white Jewish national banner. The flag that would one day be adopted by Israel was flown at the Zionist camps and centers in Hitler's Germany. 19

Himmler's security service cooperated with the Haganah, the Zionist underground military organization in Palestine. The SS agency paid Haganah official Feivel Polkes for information about the situation in Palestine and for help in directing Jewish emigration to that country. Meanwhile, the Haganah was kept well informed about German plans by a spy it managed to plant in the Berlin headquarters of the SS.20 Haganah-SS collaboration even included secret deliveries of German weapons to Jewish settlers for use in clashes with Palestinian Arabs. 21

In the aftermath of the November 1938 "Kristallnacht" outburst of violence and destruction, the SS quickly helped the Zionist organization to get back on its feet and continue its work in Germany, although now under more restricted supervision. 22
Official Reservations

German support for Zionism was not unlimited. Government and Party officials were very mindful of the continuing campaign by powerful Jewish communities in the United States, Britain and other countries to mobilize "their" governments and fellow citizens against Germany. As long as world Jewry remained implacably hostile toward National Socialist Germany, and as long as the great majority of Jews around the world showed little eagerness to resettle in the Zionist "promised land," a sovereign Jewish state in Palestine would not really "solve" the international Jewish question. Instead, German officials reasoned, it would immeasurably strengthen this dangerous anti-German campaign. German backing for Zionism was therefore limited to support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine under British control, not a sovereign Jewish state. 23

A Jewish state in Palestine, the Foreign Minister informed diplomats in June 1937, would not be in Germany's interest because it would not be able to absorb all Jews around the world, but would only serve as an additional power base for international Jewry, in much the same way as Moscow served as a base for international Communism.24 Reflecting something of a shift in official policy, the German press expressed much greater sympathy in 1937 for Palestinian Arab resistance to Zionist ambitions, at a time when tension and conflict between Jews and Arabs in Palestine was sharply increasing. 25

A Foreign Office circular bulletin of June 22, 1937, cautioned that in spite of support for Jewish settlement in Palestine, "it would nevertheless be a mistake to assume that Germany supports the formation of a state structure in Palestine under some form of Jewish control. In view of the anti-German agitation of international Jewry, Germany cannot agree that the formation of a Palestine Jewish state would help the peaceful development of the nations of the world."26 "The proclamation of a Jewish state or a Jewish-administrated Palestine," warned an internal memorandum by the Jewish affairs section of the SS, "would create for Germany a new enemy, one that would have a deep influence on developments in the Near East." Another SS agency predicted that a Jewish state "would work to bring special minority protection to Jews in every country, therefore giving legal protection to the exploitation activity of world Jewry."27 In January 1939, Hitler's new Foreign Minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop, likewise warned in another circular bulletin that "Germany must regard the formation of a Jewish state as dangerous" because it "would bring an international increase in power to world Jewry." 28

Hitler himself personally reviewed this entire issue in early 1938 and, in spite of his long-standing skepticism of Zionist ambitions and misgivings that his policies might contribute to the formation of a Jewish state, decided to support Jewish migration to Palestine even more vigorously. The prospect of ridding Germany of its Jews, he concluded, outweighed the possible dangers. 29

Meanwhile, the British government imposed ever more drastic restrictions on Jewish immigration into Palestine in 1937, 1938 and 1939. In response, the SS security service concluded a secret alliance with the clandestine Zionist agency Mossad le-Aliya Bet to smuggle Jews illegally into Palestine. As a result of this intensive collaboration, several convoys of ships succeeded in reaching Palestine past British gunboats. Jewish migration, both legal and illegal, from Germany (including Austria) to Palestine increased dramatically in 1938 and 1939. Another 10,000 Jews were scheduled to depart in October 1939, but the outbreak of war in September brought the effort to an end. All the same, German authorities continued to promote indirect Jewish emigration to Palestine during 1940 and 1941. 30 Even as late as March 1942, at least one officially authorized Zionist "kibbutz" training camp for potential emigrants continued to operate in Hitler's Germany. 31
The Transfer Agreement

The centerpiece of German-Zionist cooperation during the Hitler era was the Transfer Agreement, a pact that enabled tens of thousands of German Jews to migrate to Palestine with their wealth. The Agreement, also known as the Haavara (Hebrew for "transfer"), was concluded in August 1933 following talks between German officials and Chaim Arlosoroff, Political Secretary of the Jewish Agency, the Palestine center of the World Zionist Organization. 32

Through this unusual arrangement, each Jew bound for Palestine deposited money in a special account in Germany. The money was used to purchase German-made agricultural tools, building materials, pumps, fertilizer, and so forth, which were exported to Palestine and sold there by the Jewish-owned Haavara company in Tel-Aviv. Money from the sales was given to the Jewish emigrant upon his arrival in Palestine in an amount corresponding to his deposit in Germany. German goods poured into Palestine through the Haavara, which was supplemented a short time later with a barter agreement by which Palestine oranges were exchanged for German timber, automobiles, agricultural machinery, and other goods. The Agreement thus served the Zionist aim of bringing Jewish settlers and development capital to Palestine, while simultaneously serving the German goal of freeing the country of an unwanted alien group.

Delegates at the 1933 Zionist Congress in Prague vigorously debated the merits of the Agreement. Some feared that the pact would undermine the international Jewish economic boycott against Germany. But Zionist officials reassured the Congress. Sam Cohen, a key figure behind the Haavara arrangement, stressed that the Agreement was not economically advantageous to Germany. Arthur Ruppin, a Zionist Organization emigration specialist who had helped negotiate the pact, pointed out that "the Transfer Agreement in no way interfered with the boycott movement, since no new currency will flow into Germany as a result of the agreement..." 33 The 1935 Zionist Congress, meeting in Switzerland, overwhelmingly endorsed the pact. In 1936, the Jewish Agency (the Zionist "shadow government" in Palestine) took over direct control of the Ha'avara, which remained in effect until the Second World War forced its abandonment.

Some German officials opposed the arrangement. Germany's Consul General in Jerusalem, Hans Döhle, for example, sharply criticized the Agreement on several occasions during 1937. He pointed out that it cost Germany the foreign exchange that the products exported to Palestine through the pact would bring if sold elsewhere. The Haavara monopoly sale of German goods to Palestine through a Jewish agency naturally angered German businessmen and Arabs there. Official German support for Zionism could lead to a loss of German markets throughout the Arab world. The British government also resented the arrangement.34 A June 1937 German Foreign Office internal bulletin referred to the "foreign exchange sacrifices" that resulted from the Haavara. 35

A December 1937 internal memorandum by the German Interior Ministry reviewed the impact of the Transfer Agreement: "There is no doubt that the Haavara arrangement has contributed most significantly to the very rapid development of Palestine since 1933. The Agreement provided not only the largest source of money (from Germany!), but also the most intelligent group of immigrants, and finally it brought to the country the machines and industrial products essential for development." The main advantage of the pact, the memo reported, was the emigration of large numbers of Jews to Palestine, the most desirable target country as far as Germany was concerned. But the paper also noted the important drawbacks pointed out by Consul Döhle and others. The Interior Minister, it went on, had concluded that the disadvantages of the agreement now outweighed the advantages and that, therefore, it should be terminated. 36

Only one man could resolve the controversy. Hitler personally reviewed the policy in July and September 1937, and again in January 1938, and each time decided to maintain the Haavara arrangement. The goal of removing Jews from Germany, he concluded, justified the drawbacks. 37

The Reich Economics Ministry helped to organize another transfer company, the International Trade and Investment Agency, or Intria, through which Jews in foreign countries could help German Jews emigrate to Palestine. Almost $900,000 was eventually channeled through the Intria to German Jews in Palestine.38 Other European countries eager to encourage Jewish emigration concluded agreements with the Zionists modeled after the Ha'avara. In 1937 Poland authorized the Halifin (Hebrew for "exchange") transfer company. By late summer 1939, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary and Italy had signed similar arrangements. The outbreak of war in September 1939, however, prevented large-scale implementation of these agreements. 39
Achievements of Haavara

Between 1933 and 1941, some 60,000 German Jews emigrated to Palestine through the Ha'avara and other German-Zionist arrangements, or about ten percent of Germany's 1933 Jewish population. (These German Jews made up about 15 percent of Palestine's 1939 Jewish population.) Some Ha'avara emigrants transferred considerable personal wealth from Germany to Palestine. As Jewish historian Edwin Black has noted: "Many of these people, especially in the late 1930s, were allowed to transfer actual replicas of their homes and factories -- indeed rough replicas of their very existence."40

The total amount transferred from Germany to Palestine through the Ha'avara between August 1933 and the end of 1939 was 8.1 million pounds or 139.57 million German marks (then equivalent to more than $40 million). This amount included 33.9 million German marks ($13.8 million) provided by the Reichsbank in connection with the Agreement.41

Historian Black has estimated that an additional $70 million may have flowed into Palestine through corollary German commercial agreements and special international banking transactions. The German funds had a major impact on a country as underdeveloped as Palestine was in the 1930s, he pointed out. Several major industrial enterprises were built with the capital from Germany, including the Mekoroth waterworks and the Lodzia textile firm. The influx of Ha'avara goods and capital, concluded Black, "produced an economic explosion in Jewish Palestine" and was "an indispensable factor in the creation of the State of Israel."42

The Ha'avara agreement greatly contributed to Jewish development in Palestine and thus, indirectly, to the foundation of the Israeli state. A January 1939 German Foreign Office circular bulletin reported, with some misgiving, that "the transfer of Jewish property out of Germany [through the Ha'avara agreement] contributed to no small extent to the building of a Jewish state in Palestine."43

Former officials of the Ha'avara company in Palestine confirmed this view in a detailed study of the Transfer Agreement published in 1972: "The economic activity made possible by the influx German capital and the Haavara transfers to the private and public sectors were of greatest importance for the country's development. Many new industries and commercial enterprises were established in Jewish Palestine, and numerous companies that are enormously important even today in the economy of the State of Israel owe their existence to the Haavara."44 Dr. Ludwig Pinner, a Ha'avara company official in Tel Aviv during the 1930s, later commented that the exceptionally competent Ha'avara immigrants "decisively contributed" to the economic, social, cultural and educational development of Palestine's Jewish community.45

The Transfer Agreement was the most far-reaching example of cooperation between Hitler's Germany and international Zionism. Through this pact, Hitler's Third Reich did more than any other government during the 1930s to support Jewish development in Palestine.
Zionists Offer a Military Alliance With Hitler

In early January 1941 a small but important Zionist organization submitted a formal proposal to German diplomats in Beirut for a military-political alliance with wartime Germany. The offer was made by the radical underground "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel," better known as the Lehi or Stern Gang. Its leader, Avraham Stern, had recently broken with the radical nationalist "National Military Organization" (Irgun Zvai Leumi) over the group's attitude toward Britain, which had effectively banned further Jewish settlement of Palestine. Stern regarded Britain as the main enemy of Zionism.

This remarkable Zionist proposal "for the solution of the Jewish question in Europe and the active participation of the NMO [Lehi] in the war on the side of Germany" is worth quoting at some length:46

In their speeches and statements, the leading statesmen of National Socialist Germany have often emphasized that a New Order in Europe requires as a prerequisite a radical solution of the Jewish question by evacuation. ("Jew-free Europe")

The evacuation of the Jewish masses from Europe is a precondition for solving the Jewish question. However, the only way this can be totally achieved is through settlement of these masses in the homeland of the Jewish people, Palestine, and by the establishment of a Jewish state in its historical boundaries.

The goal of the political activity and the years of struggle by the Israel Freedom Movement, the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi), is to solve the Jewish problem in this way and thus completely liberate the Jewish people forever.

The NMO, which is very familiar with the good will of the German Reich government and its officials towards Zionist activities within Germany and the Zionist emigration program, takes that view that:

1. Common interests can exist between a European New Order based on the German concept and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as embodied by the NMO.

2. Cooperation is possible between the New Germany and a renewed, folkish-national Jewry [Hebr_ertum].

3. The establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, and bound by treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of maintaining and strengthening the future German position of power in the Near East.

On the basis of these considerations, and upon the condition that the German Reich government recognize the national aspirations of the Israel Freedom Movement mentioned above, the NMO in Palestine offers to actively take part in the war on the side of Germany.

This offer by the NMO could include military, political and informational activity within Palestine and, after certain organizational measures, outside as well. Along with this the Jewish men of Europe would be militarily trained and organized in military units under the leadership and command of the NMO. They would take part in combat operations for the purpose of conquering Palestine, should such a front by formed.

The indirect participation of the Israel Freedom Movement in the New Order of Europe, already in the preparatory stage, combined with a positive-radical solution of the European Jewish problem on the basis of the national aspirations of the Jewish people mentioned above, would greatly strengthen the moral foundation of the New Order in the eyes of all humanity.

The cooperation of the Israel Freedom Movement would also be consistent with a recent speech by the German Reich Chancellor, in which Hitler stressed that he would utilize any combination and coalition in order to isolate and defeat England.

There is no record of any German response. Acceptance was very unlikely anyway because by this time German policy was decisively pro-Arab.47 Remarkably, Stern's group sought to conclude a pact with the Third Reich at a time when stories that Hitler was bent on exterminating Jews were already in wide circulation. Stern apparently either did not believe the stories or he was willing to collaborate with the mortal enemy of his people to help bring about a Jewish state. 48

An important Lehi member at the time the group made this offer was Yitzhak Shamir, who later served as Israel's Foreign Minister and then, during much of the 1980s and until June 1992, as Prime Minister. As Lehi operations chief following Stern's death in 1942, Shamir organized numerous acts of terror, including the November 1944 assassination of British Middle East Minister Lord Moyne and the September 1948 slaying of Swedish United Nations mediator Count Bernadotte. Years later, when Shamir was asked about the 1941 offer, he confirmed that he was aware of his organization's proposed alliance with wartime Germany. 49
Conclusion

In spite of the basic hostility between the Hitler regime and international Jewry, for several years Jewish Zionist and German National Socialist interests coincided. In collaborating with the Zionists for a mutually desirable and humane solution to a complex problem, the Third Reich was willing to make foreign exchange sacrifices, impair relations with Britain and anger the Arabs. Indeed, during the 1930s no nation did more to substantively further Jewish-Zionist goals than Hitler's Germany.
Notes

1.W. Martini, "Hebr_isch unterm Hakenkreuz," Die Welt (Hamburg), Jan. 10, 1975. Cited in: Klaus Polken, "The Secret Contacts: Zionism and Nazi Germany, 1933-1941," Journal of Palestine Studies, Spring-Summer 1976, p. 65.

2.Quoted in: Ingrid Weckert, Feuerzeichen: Die "Reichskristallnacht" (Tübingen: Grabert, 1981), p. 212. See also: Th. Herzl, The Jewish State (New York: Herzl Press, 1970), pp. 33, 35, 36, and, Edwin Black, The Transfer Agreement (New York: Macmillan, 1984), p. 73.

3.Th. Herzl, "Der Kongress," Welt, June 4, 1897. Reprinted in: Theodor Herzls zionistische Schriften (Leon Kellner, ed.), erster Teil, Berlin: Jüdischer Verlag, 1920, p. 190 (and p. 139).

4.Memo of June 21, 1933, in: L. Dawidowicz, A Holocaust Reader (New York: Behrman, 1976), pp. 150-155, and (in part) in: Francis R. Nicosia, The Third Reich and the Palestine Question (Austin: Univ. of Texas, 1985), p. 42.; On Zionism in Germany before Hitler's assumption of power, see: Donald L. Niewyk, The Jews in Weimar Germany (Baton Rouge: 1980), pp. 94-95, 126-131, 140-143.; F. Nicosia, Third Reich (Austin: 1985), pp. 1-15.

5.Jüdische Rundschau (Berlin), June 13, 1933. Quoted in: Heinz H_hne, The Order of the Death's Head (New York: Ballantine, pb., 1971, 1984), pp. 376-377.

6.Heinz Höhne, The Order of the Death's Head (Ballantine, 1971, 1984), p. 376.

7."Berlin," Encyclopaedia Judaica (New York and Jerusalem: 1971), Vol. 5, p. 648. For a look at one aspect of this "vigorous life," see: J.-C. Horak, "Zionist Film Propaganda in Nazi Germany," Historical Journal of Film, Radio and Television, Vol. 4, No. 1, 1984, pp. 49-58.

8.Francis R. Nicosia, The Third Reich and the Palestine Question (1985), pp. 54-55.; Karl A. Schleunes, The Twisted Road to Auschwitz (Urbana: Univ. of Illinois, 1970, 1990), pp. 178-181.

9.Jacob Boas, "A Nazi Travels to Palestine," History Today (London), January 1980, pp. 33-38.

10.Facsimile reprint of front page of Das Schwarze Korps, May 15, 1935, in: Janusz Piekalkiewicz, Israels Langer Arm (Frankfurt: Goverts, 1975), pp. 66-67. Also quoted in: Heinz H_hne, The Order of the Death's Head (Ballantine, 1971, 1984), p. 377. See also: Erich Kern, ed., Verheimlichte Dokumente (Munich: FZ-Verlag, 1988), p. 184.

11.Das Schwarze Korps, Sept. 26, 1935. Quoted in: F. Nicosia, The Third Reich and the Palestine Question (1985), pp. 56-57.

12.Lenni Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators (1983), p. 83.

13.F. Nicosia, The Third Reich and the Palestine Question (1985), p. 60. See also: F. Nicosia, "The Yishuv and the Holocaust," The Journal of Modern History (Chicago), Vol. 64, No. 3, Sept. 1992, pp. 533-540.

14.F. Nicosia, The Third Reich and the Palestine Question (1985), p. 57.

15.Jüdische Rundschau, Sept. 17, 1935. Quoted in: Yitzhak Arad, with Y. Gutman and A. Margaliot, eds., Documents on the Holocaust (Jerusalem: Yad Vashem, 1981), pp. 82-83.

16.Der Angriff, Dec. 23, 1935, in: E. Kern, ed., Verheimlichte Dokumente (Munich: 1988), p. 148.; F. Nicosia, Third Reich (1985), p. 56.; L. Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators (1983), p. 138.; A. Margaliot, "The Reaction...," Yad Vashem Studies (Jerusalem), vol. 12, 1977, pp. 90-91.; On Kareski's remarkable career, see: H. Levine, "A Jewish Collaborator in Nazi Germany," Central European History (Atlanta), Sept. 1975, pp. 251-281.

17."Dr. Wise Urges Jews to Declare Selves as Such," New York Herald Tribune, June 13, 1938, p. 12.

18.F. Nicosia, The Third Reich (1985), p. 53.

19.Lucy Dawidowicz, The War Against the Jews, 1933-1945 (New York: Bantam, pb., 1976), pp. 253-254.; Max Nussbaum, "Zionism Under Hitler," Congress Weekly (New York: American Jewish Congress), Sept. 11, 1942.; F. Nicosia, The Third Reich (1985), pp. 58-60, 217.; Edwin Black, The Transfer Agreement (1984), p. 175.

20.H. H_hne, The Order of the Death's Head (Ballantine, pb., 1984), pp. 380-382.; K. Schleunes, Twisted Road (1970, 1990), p. 226.; Secret internal SS intelligence report about F. Polkes, June 17, 1937, in: John Mendelsohn, ed., The Holocaust (New York: Garland, 1982), vol. 5, pp. 62-64.

21.F. Nicosia, Third Reich (1985), pp. 63-64, 105, 219-220.

22.F. Nicosia, Third Reich (1985), p. 160.

23.This distinction is also implicit in the "Balfour Declaration" of November 1917, in which the British government expressed support for "a national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine, while carefully avoiding any mention of a Jewish state. Referring to the majority Arab population there, the Declaration went on to caution, "...it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." The complete text of the Declaration is reproduced in facsimile in: Robert John, Behind the Balfour Declaration (IHR, 1988), p. 32.

24.F. Nicosia, Third Reich (1985), p. 121.

25.F. Nicosia, Third Reich (1985), p. 124.

26.David Yisraeli, The Palestine Problem in German Politics 1889-1945 (Bar-Ilan University, Israel, 1974), p. 300.; Also in: Documents on German Foreign Policy, Series D, Vol. 5. Doc. No. 564 or 567.

27.K. Schleunes, The Twisted Road (1970, 1990), p. 209.

28.Circular of January 25, 1939. Nuremberg document 3358-PS. International Military Tribunal, Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal (Nuremberg: 1947-1949), vol. 32, pp. 242-243. Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression (Washington, DC: 1946-1948), vol. 6, pp. 92-93.

29.F. Nicosia, Third Reich (1985), pp. 141-144.; On Hitler's critical view of Zionism in Mein Kampf, see esp. Vol. 1, Chap. 11. Quoted in: Robert Wistrich, Hitler's Apocalypse (London: 1985), p. 155.; See also: F. Nicosia, Third Reich (1985), pp. 26-28.; Hitler told his army adjutant in 1939 and again in 1941 that he had asked the British in 1937 about transferring all of Germany's Jews to Palestine or Egypt. The British rejected the proposal, he said, because it would cause further disorder. See: H. v. Kotze, ed., Heeresadjutant bei Hitler (Stuttgart: 1974), pp. 65, 95.

30.F. Nicosia, Third Reich (1985), pp. 156, 160-164, 166-167.; H. H_hne, The Order of the Death's Head (Ballantine, pb., 1984), pp. 392-394.; Jon and David Kimche, The Secret Roads (London: Secker and Warburg, 1955), pp. 39-43. See also: David Yisraeli, "The Third Reich and Palestine," Middle Eastern Studies, October 1971, p. 347.; Bernard Wasserstein, Britain and the Jews of Europe, 1939-1945 (1979), pp. 43, 49, 52, 60.; T. Kelly, "Man who fooled Nazis," Washington Times, April 28, 1987, pp. 1B, 4B. Based on interview with Willy Perl, author of The Holocaust Conspiracy.

31.Y. Arad, et al., eds., Documents On the Holocaust (1981), p. 155. (The training kibbutz was at Neuendorf, and may have functioned even after March 1942.)

32.On the Agreement in general, see: Werner Feilchenfeld, et al., Haavara-Transfer nach Palaestina (Tübingen: Mohr/Siebeck, 1972).; David Yisraeli, "The Third Reich and the Transfer Agreement," Journal of Contemporary History (London), No. 2, 1971, pp. 129-148.; "Haavara," Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971), vol. 7, pp. 1012-1013.; F. Nicosia, The Third Reich and the Palestine Question (Austin: 1985), pp. 44-49.; Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews (New York: Holmes and Meier, 1985), pp. 140-141.; The Transfer Agreement, by Edwin Black, is detailed and useful. However, it contains numerous inaccuracies and wildly erroneous conclusions. See, for example, the review by Richard S. Levy in Commentary, Sept. 1984, pp. 68-71.

33.E. Black, The Transfer Agreement (1984), pp. 328, 337.

34.On opposition to the Haavara in official German circles, see: W. Feilchenfeld, et al., Haavara-Transfer nach Palaestina (1972), pp. 31-33.; D. Yisraeli, "The Third Reich," Journal of Contemporary History, 1971, pp. 136-139.; F. Nicosia, The Third Reich and the Palestine Question, pp. 126-139.; I. Weckert, Feuerzeichen (1981), pp. 226-227.; Rolf Vogel, Ein Stempel hat gefehlt (Munich: Droemer Knaur, 1977), pp. 110 ff.

35.W. Feilchenfeld, et al., Haavara-Transfer (1972), p. 31. Entire text in: David Yisraeli, The Palestine Problem in German Politics 1889-1945 (Israel: 1974), pp. 298-300.

36.Interior Ministry internal memo (signed by State Secretary W. Stuckart), Dec. 17, 1937, in: Helmut Eschwege, ed., Kennzeichen J (Berlin: 1966), pp. 132-136.

37.W. Feilchenfeld, et al, Haavara-Transfer (1972), p. 32.

38.E. Black, Transfer Agreement, pp. 376-377.

39.E. Black, Transfer Agreement (1984), pp. 376, 378.; F. Nicosia, Third Reich (1985), pp. 238-239 (n. 91).

40.E. Black, Transfer Agreement, p. 379.; F. Nicosia, Third Reich, pp. 212, 255 (n. 66).

41.W. Feilchenfeld, et al., Haavara-Transfer, p. 75.; "Haavara," Encyclopaedia Judaica, (1971), Vol. 7, p. 1013.

42.E. Black, Transfer Agreement, pp. 379, 373, 382.

43.Circular of January 25, 1939. Nuremberg document 3358-PS. International Military Tribunal, Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal (Nuremberg: 1947-1949), Vol. 32, pp. 242-243.

44.Werner Feilchenfeld, et al., Haavara-Transfer nach Palaestina (Tübingen: Mohr/Siebeck, 1972). Quoted in: Ingrid Weckert, Feuerzeichen (Tübingen: Grabert, 1981), pp. 222-223.

45.W. Feilchenfeld, et al., Haavara-Transfer nach Palaestina (1972). Quoted in: I. Weckert, Feuerzeichen (1981), p. 224.

46.Original document in German Ausw_rtiges Amt Archiv, Bestand 47-59, E 224152 and E 234155-58. (Photocopy in author's possession).; Complete original German text published in: David Yisraeli, The Palestine Problem in German Politics 1889-1945 (Israel: 1974), pp. 315-317. See also: Klaus Polkhen, "The Secret Contacts," Journal of Palestine Studies, Spring-Summer 1976, pp. 78-80.; (At the time this offer was made, Stern's Lehi group still regarded itself as the true Irgun/NMO.)

47.Arab nationalists opposed Britain, which then dominated much of the Arab world, including Egypt, Iraq and Palestine. Because Britain and Germany were at war, Germany cultivated Arab support. The leader of Palestine's Arabs, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini, worked closely with Germany during the war years. After escaping from Palestine, he spoke to the Arab world over German radio and helped raise Muslim recruits in Bosnia for the Waffen SS.

48.Israel Shahak, "Yitzhak Shamir, Then and Now," Middle East Policy (Washington, DC), Vol. 1, No. 1, (Whole No. 39), 1992, pp. 27-38.; Yehoshafat Harkabi, Israel's Fateful Hour (New York: Harper and Row, 1988), pp. 213-214. Quoted in: Andrew J. Hurley, Israel and the New World Order (Santa Barbara, Calif.: 1991), pp. 93, 208-209.; Avishai Margalit, "The Violent Life of Yitzhak Shamir," New York Review of Books, May 14, 1992, pp. 18-24.; Lenni Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators (1983), pp. 266-269.; L. Brenner, Jews in America Today (1986), pp. 175-177.; L. Brenner, "Yitzhak Shamir: On Hitler's Side," Arab Perspectives (League of Arab States), March 1984, pp. 11-13.

49.Avishai Margalit, "The Violent Life of Yitzhak Shamir," New York Review of Books, May 14, 1992, pp. 18-24.; Lenni Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators (1983), pp. 266-269.; L. Brenner, Jews in America Today (1986), pp. 175-177.; L. Brenner, "Skeletons in Shamir's Cupboard," Middle East International, Sept. 30, 1983, pp. 15-16.; Sol Stern, L. Rapoport, "Israel's Man of the Shadows," Village Voice (New York), July 3, 1984, pp. 13 ff.
From The Journal of Historical Review, July-August 1993 (Vol. 13, No. 4), pages 29–37.

Mark Weber studied history at the University of Illinois (Chicago), the University of Munich, Portland State University and Indiana University (M.A., 1977). In March 1988 he testified for five days in Toronto District Court as a recognized expert witness on Germany's wartime Jewish policy and the Holocaust issue.

 

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[javaguru]

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