I don't get the benefits of hcg over clomid/nolva IF one's testes have NOT shrunk

[worldclass]

That's taking it backwards though. HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - should be taken the last week of a cycle. Then two weeks later, depending on the esters used, you should begin Clomid. As far as the supplements taking the place of this PCT - post cycle therapy - , I just laugh, sorry. njmuscle is just one of a few guys in a sea of thousands.
It's not either or Bro. You should be using both. Do you NEED HCG? no. It just makes the time to recovery quicker.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan, the statement in bold is not true...
Clomid administration is not a guarantee that the pituitary will secrete lh - leutenizing hormone - or FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - .

Some people such as NJMuscleGuy don't completely respond to clomid or HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - . Myogenx and Dermacrine Sustain allowed him to recover from hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - shutdown over both.

Fair enough and you are correct - I shouldn't make blanket statements about what works for others based on my own blood tests.

worldclass - Good post and thanks. I can see it maybe speeding things up a bit in the way you have described - simply because it gets THE NUTS working before your LH is raised. Or you coudl just wait until your LH is raised.

So, again, why not just start the clomid in the last week of your cycle or nolva or something to up your LH and FSH and stimulate the testes that way? It'll only be FSH and LH acting on the testes though, so I suppose it is different than using hcg. Anyways, the blanks were filled in so thanks guys!

 

[Nathan]

And as for OTC supps not having dramatic effects on the body, I used to think that too. Then I took some niacin and was like WHAT THE FUCK? I can't believe that shit is a B-vitamin.

 

[gjohnson5]

My opinion is that the need for clomid and HCG person to person.
There is evidence that novaldex is actually more effective in raising testosterone then clomid... This would mean that clomid itself is not effective at all in raising testoterone.

Some believe that clomid and novaldex together should be effective in blocking estrogen rebound. George Spellwin's reasoning is that clomid and novaldex in conjunction would block estrogen to both types of receptors (alpha and beta). Testosterone is allowed to increase via hpta due to estrogen being inhibited...

My belief is that some OTC pct products via a combination of supplements can block estrogen rebound and not have a slightly inhibitory effect on the htpa testosterone loop that clomid does have (which is the reason I find it to be ineffective).

I know clomid / novaldex/ HCG has been the pct protocol most state , but I based on results of peoples cycles , I don't believe it's the only option.

 

[gjohnson5]

These products have been used successfully by users of this board

Myogenx: http://proteinfactory.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=829
Dermacrine Sustain: http://www.primordialperformance.com/derm_sust_intro.cfm

 

[Primordial Performance]

h CG directly stimulates the testes above the average dose that comes from the hypothalamus directly or from Clomid/Nolva stimulation. Generally a 500iu h CG shoot would provide about 500% more LH/FSH stimulation than what would normally come from the hypothalamus.

The reason h CG is a “must” is because only hCG can provide enough stimulation to “awaken” LH/FSH deprived testes.

The size the testes has little to do with their testosterone secretory capacity. In fact, testes size may only decrease 5-10% during a 16 week cycle, but there ability to respond to LH and secrete testosterone can be decreased as much as 98%. On cycle h CG prevents this, which is why I recommend h CG be ran for every cycle at a maintenance dose of 200iu EOD.

-Pp

 

[hyp1]

h CG directly stimulates the testes above the average dose that comes from the hypothalamus directly or from Clomid/Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - stimulation. Generally a 500iu h CG shoot would provide about 500% more lh - leutenizing hormone - /FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - stimulation than what would normally come from the hypothalamus.

The reason h CG is a “must” is because only HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - can provide enough stimulation to “awaken” LH/FSH deprived testes.

The size the testes has little to do with their testosterone secretory capacity. In fact, testes size may only decrease 5-10% during a 16 week cycle, but there ability to respond to LH and secrete testosterone can be decreased as much as 98%. On cycle h CG prevents this, which is why I recommend h CG be ran for every cycle at a maintenance dose of 200iu EOD.

-Pp

excellent informative post bro

 

[Nathan]

h CG directly stimulates the testes above the average dose that comes from the hypothalamus directly or from Clomid/Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - stimulation. Generally a 500iu h CG shoot would provide about 500% more lh - leutenizing hormone - /FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - stimulation than what would normally come from the hypothalamus.

The reason h CG is a “must” is because only HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - can provide enough stimulation to “awaken” LH/FSH deprived testes.

The size the testes has little to do with their testosterone secretory capacity. In fact, testes size may only decrease 5-10% during a 16 week cycle, but there ability to respond to LH and secrete testosterone can be decreased as much as 98%. On cycle h CG prevents this, which is why I recommend h CG be ran for every cycle at a maintenance dose of 200iu EOD.

-Pp

Again, what if you don't need your testes "awoken"? Like, my blood tests showed clomid did that and put my LH ABOVE normal levels - probably 200% more than I would make on my own.

What about the testes response to FSH? Does hcg help with that?

And then what about guys on test replacement therapy wanting to have kids? Wouldn't clomid be sufficient in most cases? Or is the testes sensitivity to FSH reduced as well?

 

[needtogetaas]

Yeah man, presume I'm not a newbie for a second though if you will. If you want to take a second stab, I'd appreciate it but my guess is that nobody will say mcuh cause they don't know either. Andif somebody does then great. I just notice everyone jumps on a bandwagon and repeats whatever is currently popular and back when I used to visit this board, HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - - human chorionic gonadotropin - was not as popular as it seems to be now. Before that, however, I think it was. These things cycle in popularity.

Again, I could be wrong but I DO KNOW that this one is not obvious. I'm sure there are reasons why HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - is beneficial over clomid/Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - , but if testicle shirnkage isn't an issue, I don't get why HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - gets the adrenal gland working whereas clomid/Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - do not.

Am I correct that lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - and FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - - follicle stimulating hormone - production are coming from the same place? If clomid can get them up while you are still shut down, what's the problem?

Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism:

Pulsatile secretion of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus is required for both the initiation and maintenance of the reproductive axis in the human. Pulsatile GnRH stimulates the biosynthesis of luteinizing hormone (lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - ) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - ) that in turn initiates endogenous testosterone production and spermatogenesis as well as systemic testosterone secretion and virilization. Failure of this episodic GnRH secretion or disruption of gonadotropin secretion results in the clinical syndrome of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH).

The usage of anabolic androgenic steroids (anabolic androgenic steroids) may result in a functional form of HH known as Secondary Acquired Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism and is diagnosed in the setting of a low testosterone level and sperm count in association with low or inappropriately normal serum lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - and FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - concentrations.



Gonadotropin Therapy:

There is nothing more effective than Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - ). The action of HCG is identical to that of pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - . This takes place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - suppression. Therefore, it directly stimulates a dramatic increase in endogenous testosterone production, spermatogenesis and testicular volume. The primary goal during the first few weeks of PCT - post cycle therapy - is to quickly restore testicular volume and function. Also, the dramatic increase in testosterone production is necessary to avoid and/or minimize the unfavorable "crash" effect. In the majority of individuals with larger testes at baseline, HCG alone is sufficient in restoring endogenous testosterone production as well at the induction of spermatogenesis which is most likely a result of residual FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - secretion. Once there is a plateau in the response to HCG, treatment with an FSH preparation such as human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG) or recombinant follicle stimulating hormone (rFSH) should be added in combination to HCG.

 

[needtogetaas]

h CG directly stimulates the testes above the average dose that comes from the hypothalamus directly or from Clomid/Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - stimulation. Generally a 500iu h CG shoot would provide about 500% more lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - /FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - - follicle stimulating hormone - stimulation than what would normally come from the hypothalamus.

The reason h CG is a “must” is because only HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - - human chorionic gonadotropin - can provide enough stimulation to “awaken” LH/FSH deprived testes.

The size the testes has little to do with their testosterone secretory capacity. In fact, testes size may only decrease 5-10% during a 16 week cycle, but there ability to respond to LH and secrete testosterone can be decreased as much as 98%. On cycle h CG prevents this, which is why I recommend h CG be ran for every cycle at a maintenance dose of 200iu EOD.

-Pp

o btw bro as soon as I started reading this thread I was thinking.I hope pp is on and gets in on this one.lol good to see you bro and nice post.