I don't get the benefits of hcg over clomid/nolva IF one's testes have NOT shrunk

[Nathan]

The whole point of HCG administration is to bring your testicular mass back up as well as to get your adrenal gland working to some extent and producing LH and FSH, right? Well, if you have testicular mass and take clomid or nolva, your FSH and LH increase in kind. If I am producing LH and FSH, mustn't my adrenal gland be working?

I might have the whole thing wrong and be misunderstanding since it has been awhile. But yeah, that was something I never understood. If your nuts don't shrink, isn't clomid or nolva a valid substitue?

 

[CremasterBlaster]

The secondary theory is that if you wait for "natural" HPTA function post cycle, you will lose gains made while on exogenous anabolics/androgens. It is this "window" post-cycle that most gains are lost as natty test levels are suppressed.....the HCG/nolva/clomid/POST-CYCLE etc..are used to shorten the time in which your body would take to produce natural test, allowing you to keep more gains.

 

[Nathan]

Yeah man, presume I'm not a newbie for a second though if you will. If you want to take a second stab, I'd appreciate it but my guess is that nobody will say mcuh cause they don't know either. Andif somebody does then great. I just notice everyone jumps on a bandwagon and repeats whatever is currently popular and back when I used to visit this board, hcg was not as popular as it seems to be now. Before that, however, I think it was. These things cycle in popularity.

Again, I could be wrong but I DO KNOW that this one is not obvious. I'm sure there are reasons why hcg is beneficial over clomid/nolva, but if testicle shirnkage isn't an issue, I don't get why hcg gets the adrenal gland working whereas clomid/nolva do not.

Am I correct that LH and FSH production are coming from the same place? If clomid can get them up while you are still shut down, what's the problem?

 

[gjohnson5]

1. Adrenal glands dont secrete lh - leutenizing hormone - and FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - and aren't associated with hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - ...
2. HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - mimmics Lutenizing hormone
3. Just because you take clomid does not necessarily mean you will have a LH and FSH increase

I would assume that increasing clomid at the point the testicles are functioning normally probably will have no effect on LH and FSH and in turn testosterone. Testiclular shrinkage due to the testicles being sedentary and not producing testosterone. If they are working , I don't see the point in taking clomid

The whole point of HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - administration is to bring your testicular mass back up as well as to get your adrenal gland working to some extent and producing lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - and FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - , right? Well, if you have testicular mass and take clomid or Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - , your FSH and LH increase in kind. If I am producing LH and FSH, mustn't my adrenal gland be working?

I might have the whole thing wrong and be misunderstanding since it has been awhile. But yeah, that was something I never understood. If your nuts don't shrink, isn't clomid or Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - a valid substitue?

 

[Nathan]

Yeah, I don't know why I said adrenal gland - I was watching Fear and Loathing I think is the problem.

But you are assuming that no testicular shrinkage implies that the testicles are producing testosterone, which does not necessarily have to be the case does it? And I'm pretty sure clomid will increase your LH no matter what - unless something else is boosting it and you are already at like 130% production of what you should be. It took me up above normal LH levels for males anyayws when I got my bloodwork done which I'm assuming my body would not have otherwise done.

So we are all in agreement than that HCG could very well be every bit as useful as clomid and when we read people say HCG IS A MUST what they mean is, hcg has worked for me but so can other options.

 

[gjohnson5]

HCG is not a must.
Let me get that straight.

It's like a political answer , LOL

 

[Nathan]

HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - is not a must.
Let me get that straight.

It's like a political answer , LOL

Thanks bro. I just haven't been perusing these boards as much (other than for deleting spam) as I used to so certain things jump out at me since I remember different advice being commonly touted. I especially get all worked up when I see words like NEED and MUST, cause that's not the way I did it back when and my blood tests came out good. I think I'll get my sperm levels tested too for the fuck of it - I'm guessing it's free.

In the last month or so I've taken serious advantage of free health care. Full blood work, STD testing (shut up it was a formality and I'm clean), echocardiogram, psychiatrist visit, and I'm getting a mole removed (though that one is going to cost me $60 because it's cosmetic and I'm vain). Did you know that gyno surgery is covered in Canada if you get referred? Yep, I don't need it but I got my doc to refer me so that if I ever were to need it - like let's say I do a cycle down the road and screw up - guess who doesn't have to pay for it? Better safe than sorry I guess if I decide to do that again - who knows if I'll maybe go on test replacement down the road or what.

That doc was cool shit.

 

[worldclass]

Let me correct you on a couple things. HCG has been suggested on this board since 2001. It's not a new idea.
The purpose of it is restart your testes. By tricking the testes into thinking that there is LH present they begin to come back online. The HPTA may still be shut down but the LH mimic makes them restart some of the recovery. It's particularly "necessary" on a nandrolone/tren cycle. It gives the testes a jumpstart before the clomid goes to work.
The fact that HCG restores size is not the reason you use it for PCT. That's just for looks.

 

[Nathan]

Let me correct you on a couple things. HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - has been suggested on this board since 2001. It's not a new idea.

I actually never said that but no worries - and I'm sure it's been discussed on here since more like 1999. But it's POPULARITY at any given time does change, just like all the drugs.

Also, your argument now has me wondering if maybe hcg is a far less ideal option than something like clomid since clomid will do the same thing PLUS get your hpta working again. Clomid WILL get your LH up and once that is elevated, you wouldn't nee hcg (unless you have no testicular mass, which was hwat I seem torecall people touting it for once upon a time, thuogh may have been select individuals who never really know what the fuck they were doing in the first place).

 

[gjohnson5]

Nathan, the statement in bold is not true...
Clomid administration is not a guarantee that the pituitary will secrete LH or FSH.

Some people such as NJMuscleGuy don't completely respond to clomid or HCG. Myogenx and Dermacrine Sustain allowed him to recover from hpta shutdown over both.

I actually never said that but no worries - and I'm sure it's been discussed on here since more like 1999. But it's POPULARITY at any given time does change, just like all the drugs.

Also, your argument now has me wondering if maybe HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - is a far less ideal option than something like clomid since clomid will do the same thing PLUS get your hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - working again. Clomid WILL get your lh - leutenizing hormone - up and once that is elevated, you wouldn't nee HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - (unless you have no testicular mass, which was hwat I seem torecall people touting it for once upon a time, thuogh may have been select individuals who never really know what the fuck they were doing in the first place).

 

[worldclass]

That's taking it backwards though. HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - should be taken the last week of a cycle. Then two weeks later, depending on the esters used, you should begin Clomid. As far as the supplements taking the place of this PCT - post cycle therapy - , I just laugh, sorry. njmuscle is just one of a few guys in a sea of thousands.
It's not either or Bro. You should be using both. Do you NEED HCG? no. It just makes the time to recovery quicker.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan, the statement in bold is not true...
Clomid administration is not a guarantee that the pituitary will secrete lh - leutenizing hormone - or FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - .

Some people such as NJMuscleGuy don't completely respond to clomid or HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - . Myogenx and Dermacrine Sustain allowed him to recover from hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - shutdown over both.

Fair enough and you are correct - I shouldn't make blanket statements about what works for others based on my own blood tests.

worldclass - Good post and thanks. I can see it maybe speeding things up a bit in the way you have described - simply because it gets THE NUTS working before your LH is raised. Or you coudl just wait until your LH is raised.

So, again, why not just start the clomid in the last week of your cycle or nolva or something to up your LH and FSH and stimulate the testes that way? It'll only be FSH and LH acting on the testes though, so I suppose it is different than using hcg. Anyways, the blanks were filled in so thanks guys!

 

[Nathan]

And as for OTC supps not having dramatic effects on the body, I used to think that too. Then I took some niacin and was like WHAT THE FUCK? I can't believe that shit is a B-vitamin.

 

[gjohnson5]

My opinion is that the need for clomid and HCG person to person.
There is evidence that novaldex is actually more effective in raising testosterone then clomid... This would mean that clomid itself is not effective at all in raising testoterone.

Some believe that clomid and novaldex together should be effective in blocking estrogen rebound. George Spellwin's reasoning is that clomid and novaldex in conjunction would block estrogen to both types of receptors (alpha and beta). Testosterone is allowed to increase via hpta due to estrogen being inhibited...

My belief is that some OTC pct products via a combination of supplements can block estrogen rebound and not have a slightly inhibitory effect on the htpa testosterone loop that clomid does have (which is the reason I find it to be ineffective).

I know clomid / novaldex/ HCG has been the pct protocol most state , but I based on results of peoples cycles , I don't believe it's the only option.

 

[gjohnson5]

These products have been used successfully by users of this board

Myogenx: http://proteinfactory.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=829
Dermacrine Sustain: http://www.primordialperformance.com/derm_sust_intro.cfm

 

[Primordial Performance]

h CG directly stimulates the testes above the average dose that comes from the hypothalamus directly or from Clomid/Nolva stimulation. Generally a 500iu h CG shoot would provide about 500% more LH/FSH stimulation than what would normally come from the hypothalamus.

The reason h CG is a “must” is because only hCG can provide enough stimulation to “awaken” LH/FSH deprived testes.

The size the testes has little to do with their testosterone secretory capacity. In fact, testes size may only decrease 5-10% during a 16 week cycle, but there ability to respond to LH and secrete testosterone can be decreased as much as 98%. On cycle h CG prevents this, which is why I recommend h CG be ran for every cycle at a maintenance dose of 200iu EOD.

-Pp

 

[hyp1]

h CG directly stimulates the testes above the average dose that comes from the hypothalamus directly or from Clomid/Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - stimulation. Generally a 500iu h CG shoot would provide about 500% more lh - leutenizing hormone - /FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - stimulation than what would normally come from the hypothalamus.

The reason h CG is a “must” is because only HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - can provide enough stimulation to “awaken” LH/FSH deprived testes.

The size the testes has little to do with their testosterone secretory capacity. In fact, testes size may only decrease 5-10% during a 16 week cycle, but there ability to respond to LH and secrete testosterone can be decreased as much as 98%. On cycle h CG prevents this, which is why I recommend h CG be ran for every cycle at a maintenance dose of 200iu EOD.

-Pp

excellent informative post bro

 

[Nathan]

h CG directly stimulates the testes above the average dose that comes from the hypothalamus directly or from Clomid/Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - stimulation. Generally a 500iu h CG shoot would provide about 500% more lh - leutenizing hormone - /FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - stimulation than what would normally come from the hypothalamus.

The reason h CG is a “must” is because only HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - can provide enough stimulation to “awaken” LH/FSH deprived testes.

The size the testes has little to do with their testosterone secretory capacity. In fact, testes size may only decrease 5-10% during a 16 week cycle, but there ability to respond to LH and secrete testosterone can be decreased as much as 98%. On cycle h CG prevents this, which is why I recommend h CG be ran for every cycle at a maintenance dose of 200iu EOD.

-Pp

Again, what if you don't need your testes "awoken"? Like, my blood tests showed clomid did that and put my LH ABOVE normal levels - probably 200% more than I would make on my own.

What about the testes response to FSH? Does hcg help with that?

And then what about guys on test replacement therapy wanting to have kids? Wouldn't clomid be sufficient in most cases? Or is the testes sensitivity to FSH reduced as well?

 

[needtogetaas]

Yeah man, presume I'm not a newbie for a second though if you will. If you want to take a second stab, I'd appreciate it but my guess is that nobody will say mcuh cause they don't know either. Andif somebody does then great. I just notice everyone jumps on a bandwagon and repeats whatever is currently popular and back when I used to visit this board, HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - - human chorionic gonadotropin - was not as popular as it seems to be now. Before that, however, I think it was. These things cycle in popularity.

Again, I could be wrong but I DO KNOW that this one is not obvious. I'm sure there are reasons why HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - is beneficial over clomid/Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - , but if testicle shirnkage isn't an issue, I don't get why HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - gets the adrenal gland working whereas clomid/Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - do not.

Am I correct that lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - and FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - - follicle stimulating hormone - production are coming from the same place? If clomid can get them up while you are still shut down, what's the problem?

Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism:

Pulsatile secretion of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus is required for both the initiation and maintenance of the reproductive axis in the human. Pulsatile GnRH stimulates the biosynthesis of luteinizing hormone (lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - ) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - ) that in turn initiates endogenous testosterone production and spermatogenesis as well as systemic testosterone secretion and virilization. Failure of this episodic GnRH secretion or disruption of gonadotropin secretion results in the clinical syndrome of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH).

The usage of anabolic androgenic steroids (anabolic androgenic steroids) may result in a functional form of HH known as Secondary Acquired Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism and is diagnosed in the setting of a low testosterone level and sperm count in association with low or inappropriately normal serum lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - and FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - concentrations.



Gonadotropin Therapy:

There is nothing more effective than Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - ). The action of HCG is identical to that of pituitary lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - . This takes place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - suppression. Therefore, it directly stimulates a dramatic increase in endogenous testosterone production, spermatogenesis and testicular volume. The primary goal during the first few weeks of PCT - post cycle therapy - is to quickly restore testicular volume and function. Also, the dramatic increase in testosterone production is necessary to avoid and/or minimize the unfavorable "crash" effect. In the majority of individuals with larger testes at baseline, HCG alone is sufficient in restoring endogenous testosterone production as well at the induction of spermatogenesis which is most likely a result of residual FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - secretion. Once there is a plateau in the response to HCG, treatment with an FSH preparation such as human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG) or recombinant follicle stimulating hormone (rFSH) should be added in combination to HCG.

 

[needtogetaas]

h CG directly stimulates the testes above the average dose that comes from the hypothalamus directly or from Clomid/Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - stimulation. Generally a 500iu h CG shoot would provide about 500% more lh - leutenizing hormone - - leutenizing hormone - /FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - - follicle stimulating hormone - stimulation than what would normally come from the hypothalamus.

The reason h CG is a “must” is because only HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - - human chorionic gonadotropin - can provide enough stimulation to “awaken” LH/FSH deprived testes.

The size the testes has little to do with their testosterone secretory capacity. In fact, testes size may only decrease 5-10% during a 16 week cycle, but there ability to respond to LH and secrete testosterone can be decreased as much as 98%. On cycle h CG prevents this, which is why I recommend h CG be ran for every cycle at a maintenance dose of 200iu EOD.

-Pp

o btw bro as soon as I started reading this thread I was thinking.I hope pp is on and gets in on this one.lol good to see you bro and nice post.

 

[Primordial Performance]

Again, what if you don't need your testes "awoken"? Like, my blood tests showed clomid did that and put my lh - leutenizing hormone - ABOVE normal levels - probably 200% more than I would make on my own.

What about the testes response to FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - ? Does HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - help with that?

And then what about guys on test replacement therapy wanting to have kids? Wouldn't clomid be sufficient in most cases? Or is the testes sensitivity to FSH reduced as well?

If you’ve been on steroids for a long period of time, and didn’t use h CG during the cycle then its likely you will need an “awakening”. Only about 10-20% of the male population can get away with not using hCG on cycle or after, and recover ok withou it. So perhaps in your case you could get away with a clomid only PCT.

h CG mostly mimics LH, but it has minor FSH activity too, and it can keep a man fertile if used concurrently with steroids or HRT.

Clomid wont serve the same purpose during a cycle. I highly doubt it would provide enough LH/FSH stimulation to keep a man fertile during a cycle, and even if it did nobody should be considering clomid for long-term use – it is very toxic stuff.

-Pp

 

[needtogetaas]

lets tag team this bitch...yaaaa

 

[a creed]

I came off after being "on" for a year and 1/2, - all I used was 50mg/day of Clomid for 4 weeks and my "boys" went from "hiding" to full, bouncy, and are working quite well.

I finished the Clomid about 3 weeks ago, and even though I had it - I never used HCG.

I really wanted to see how Clomid alone would work for me (with an AI of course)

 

[needtogetaas]

I came off after being "on" for a year and 1/2, - all I used was 50mg/day of Clomid for 4 weeks and my "boys" went from "hiding" to full, bouncy, and are working quite well.

I finished the Clomid about 3 weeks ago, and even though I had it - I never used HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - .

I really wanted to see how Clomid alone would work for me (with an aromatase inhibitor of course)

some people are lucky.just like some people dont get deca dick or the sides from it that others do...like pp said though its a pretty small amount....

thats awesome though bro that you recovered like that...

 

[Nathan]

I came off after being "on" for a year and 1/2, - all I used was 50mg/day of Clomid for 4 weeks and my "boys" went from "hiding" to full, bouncy, and are working quite well.

I finished the Clomid about 3 weeks ago, and even though I had it - I never used HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - .

I really wanted to see how Clomid alone would work for me (with an aromatase inhibitor of course)

Same experiences with blood tests to prove it, though that was years ago. Maybe it is an individual thing.

What is a "long" period of time being on cycle? Are we talking a couple months or years?

 

[a creed]

Same experiences with blood tests to prove it, though that was years ago. Maybe it is an individual thing.

What is a "long" period of time being on cycle? Are we talking a couple months or years?

I put it in there - 18months..........

 

[Nathan]

I put it in there - 18months..........

Sorry dude, my bad - the duration question was aimed at PP.

 

[needtogetaas]

Same experiences with blood tests to prove it, though that was years ago. Maybe it is an individual thing.

What is a "long" period of time being on cycle? Are we talking a couple months or years?

IMO long cycles are over 12 weeks mainly 14 weeks or more..thats when I start telling people to use hcg during cycle and not after...I still feel during is better even on short cycles but not needed.

 

[holy ghost]

yeah im def going to run it after this one

 

[needtogetaas]

yeah im def going to run it after this one

why not on bro....

 

[a creed]

Sorry dude, my bad - the duration question was aimed at PP.

my bad bro

 

[Primordial Performance]

Same experiences with blood tests to prove it, though that was years ago. Maybe it is an individual thing.

What is a "long" period of time being on cycle? Are we talking a couple months or years?

Id consider 16 week and beyond a long period.

-Pp

 

[needtogetaas]

good thread.

 

[needtogetaas]

this was a good thread

 

[Mavafanculo]

And as for OTC supps not having dramatic effects on the body, I used to think that too. Then I took some niacin and was like WHAT THE FUCK? I can't believe that shit is a B-vitamin.

was that on HDL numbers?