Huck, Macro and Zyg....AS usage & enlarged heart connection?

[Antiestrogenic]

Does anybody think there is a potential link between AS usage and an enlarged heart?
I know it causes hypertrophy of skeletal muscle, what about cardiac muscle?

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

It's certainly possible,particularly if one is regularly conducting stressful cardio sessions.I suppose this would be an individualistic,genetic disposition though.It IS something that has always concerned me.Personally,I avoid cardio(at least stressful)while on,and hit it hard when the A/S have cleared my system.

 

[2Thick]

It is more of a genetic fault than soemthing caused by AAS.

Marathon runners have enlarged hearts, too but it is for a different reason.

 

[xonic2xonic]

I avoid cardio(at least stressful)while on,and hit it hard when the A/S have cleared my system.

Nothing to do with the original question but just curious... do you not find intense cardio to be catabolic post cycle right when you are most vulnerable?

 

[bigbabybodybuilder]

Steroids by themselves do not appreciably increase the size of your heart. But If you retain water and your blood pressure is elevated for a long period of time because of roids, you may dovelope LVH (left ventricular hypertrophy) I know I am border line so I decided to diet down from 320 to my current weight of 270 at aprox 13% my blood pressure is healthy and no more stress on the ticker.

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

Nothing to do with the original question but just curious... do you not find intense cardio to be catabolic post cycle right when you are most vulnerable?

Sorry,should have been more clear on that.I don't do that immediately post-cycle,just when I decide to run a cutting phase.I am always either clean,or very low dosed on my A/S when running cardio sessions.It does make things tricky in terms of catabolism in either case.

 

[CLEMDOG]

AS usage does predispose oneself and increase the risks of cardiovascular disease, maybe not directly, but more so indirectly. For example, Triglyceride levels, cholesterol levels are adversely affected as well as the HDL/LDL ratio. This ultimately can lead to atherosclerotic heart disease, and we all know can lead to increased risk of myocardial infarctions, cardiac ischemia and angina and increased risk of stroke. AS usage can stimulate erythropoeisis and increase the viscosity of blood and the potential for vascular problems such as the development of a thrombus or even emboli. Hence, the increased risk of the development of an MI, stroke and angina.

As far as the chances of cardiomyopathy and cardiomegaly, I'm exactly unsure of the pathology behind AS use and these diseases. I would venture to say that blood pressure increases, increases in blood viscosity, the development of athersclerosis and arteriosclerosis over time can lead to left ventricular heart failure from the increased workload the left ventricle must pump against. Over time this can lead to enlargement and inefficiency of the left ventricule and if continued to progress can end up causing both right and left sided CHF.

Like stated, no one is the same. Genetic predisposition to cardiovascular diseases will definitely play a role.

Modifiable risk factors must also be looked at. Of course smoking, drinking, drug usage, AS usage, hypertension, overall health, diet, activity level should be assessed. Other risk factors that are not modifiable, or only treated, include pathological diseases such as diabetes, hypercholesterolemia, preexisted cardiovascular problems, ect..

I've used myself, so I'm not bashing AS, however, there are associated problems with AS and increase ones risk for pathological processes to take place. So, I'd say use your own personal judgement, stay healthy, modify risk factors and use within moderation.

 

[CLEMDOG]

Good example: look at Zoomsters recent post on taking a trip to the CCU.
Then again, it could have happened regardless of his AS usage.

 

[Fonz]

I've already done the research.......

Acetyl-L-Carnitine(5g) + R-ALA(600mg) + Choline(3g) + Co-Q10(100mg/day), will pretty much erradicate any type of AAS induced enlarged heart.(Assuming no genetic problems...and even then, it wouldm most probably let them lead normal lives)

The ALCar is specially important as it rejuvenates the heart walls.
Choline amplifies AlCars effects.
And R-ALA and Co-Q10, increase oxygen transport to the heart by about 30-40%.

Also, you can use idebenone: A synthetic variant of Co-Q10 and more powerful. You only need 45mg to 100mg of Co-Q10.

Fonz

 

[CLEMDOG]

Fonz, I definitely like the combo you have put together. Thats a good prophylactic approach.

Dont forget the Green Tea , my favorite...

 

[Fonz]

Fonz, I definitely like the combo you have put together. Thats a good prophylactic approach.

Dont forget the Green Tea , my favorite...

Green Tea has more systematic effects.

The combos I put up are more specific to cardiac health.

But yeah...GT is definately a go. In the Top 5 of my Supplement list. Extremely versatile.

Fonz

 

[40butpumpin]

I've already done the research.......

Acetyl-L-Carnitine(5g) + R-ALA(600mg) + Choline(3g) + Co-Q10(100mg/day), will pretty much erradicate any type of AAS induced enlarged heart.(Assuming no genetic problems...and even then, it wouldm most probably let them lead normal lives)

The ALCar is specially important as it rejuvenates the heart walls.
Choline amplifies AlCars effects.
And R-ALA and Co-Q10, increase oxygen transport to the heart by about 30-40%.

Also, you can use idebenone: A synthetic variant of Co-Q10 and more powerful. You only need 45mg to 100mg of Co-Q10.

Fonz

Indeed. Add in some Nattokinase and you've pretty much got it covered.

 

[posthuman]

It's the heavy lifting(blood pressure spike)that may contribut to left ventricula wall thickening.That's why powerlifter,natural and juiced both,often get it to a degree.

Cardio probably is just healthy.

 

[DrJMW]

Does anybody think there is a potential link between AS usage and an enlarged heart?
I know it causes hypertrophy of skeletal muscle, what about cardiac muscle?

Of course there is a link--direct and indirect. Just about every athlete has an enlarged heart. The heart has to "grow" to accomodate increased demand. An enlarged heart, in and of itself, is not bad. The problems occurs when the athlete stops competing and working out. The heart doesn't sink, it just gets weak.

 

[CLEMDOG]

yeah, I drink green tea for its overall health benefits, which are just about endless. I will drink it until the day I die.

40- What is that Nattokinase you are talking about? I've never heard of it.

 

[40butpumpin]

40- What is that Nattokinase you are talking about? I've never heard of it.

CD, Nattokinase is an enzyme extracted and highly purified from a traditional Japanese food called Natto. It's also, however, a potent fibrinolytic which means it can successfully dissolve thrombus associated with cardiac and cerebral infarction (blood clots associated with heart attacks and stroke).

This information above was taken from this site...

http://www.allergyresearchgroup.com/proddesc/discuss/nattokinase.htm

Here's some more from a different source (an MD I'm in contact with about it):

Nattokinase decreases fibrin and therefore decreases whole blood viscosity. Fibrin is an integral portion of an acute and/or chronic inflammatory state. In addition, the decreased blood viscosity (without negatively affecting blood clotting) increases subcellular and cellular perfusion, i.e., increased tissue oxygenation and removal of metabolites. Any nutritional supplements may have increased bioavailability ergo increasing their efficacy.

From a post from me a while back:

- lowers blood viscosity
- lowers blood pressure
- reduces arterial inflammation (as seen by lowered c-reactive protein levels)
- dissolves blood clots (thrombus)
- inhibits ldl oxidation
- increases tissue oxygenation
- expedites the removal of metabolites and toxins
- is effective when taken orally

and...

Nattokinase does decrease the blood visocity but does not affect the body's ability to clot. Blood thinning has a bad connotation because it is associated with aspirin and coumadin. You CAN thin blood without negative side effects. Nattokinase acts only on the fibrinolytic system to dissolve thrombi within the blood vellels which is different than what aspirin does which is inhibit platelet aggregation.

Let me know if you, or anyone else is interested in this, let me know as I would be able to help. I honestly believe it's perfect for the BB'er using AAS and urge anyone to research it for themselves.

 

[The Terminator]

This has really become a nice informative thread...

 

[CLEMDOG]

very interesting indeed. A fibrinolytic that does not interfer with normal blood clotting. Normal blood coagulation is dependant on the clotting cascade and in the end, the conversion of fibrinogen into stable fibrin clots. I dont see how a compound that inhibits normal blood coagulation will not interfer on a day to day basis if someone injures themselves. Do you know the specific clotting factor that this compound inhibits?

all of the points that you state about Nattokinases effects are all very important in determining cardiovascular health and risk factors. It seems as if this compound is very verstile in promoting CV health as well as being a prophylactic supp.

CRP (C-reactive protein) levels are a valuable indication of vascular inflammation and can be evaluated to determine CV pathology risk. New cardiac enzyme tests are also being employed to assess CV health.

 

[BrothaBill]

I specialize in the heart, AAS does increase (temporarily) the heart muscle. It does by the same process as nitrogen retention. This will be exacerbated ny increased flui retention and High bp. Normally it will reclude to the normal size. Not all of is the same and people with enlarged hearts and genetically cause premature death with using these substances. It is a huge topic, but I have to go. Ill post why later

 

[BrothaBill]

Just a side note, enlarged hearts are calculate by left ventricular wall thickness. 7-11MM is normal. I have had patients up to 25mm with a gentic prediposition HCM. WE calculate normal values with Body surface area, that is a big guy has larger values. Just find out the dimensions of your heart and PM me, Ill give you some perspective.

 

[CLEMDOG]

Its hard to say, but AS may induce cardiac hypertrophy. Whether It has been directly proven I dont know. Indirectly, yes.

My father is a CT surgeon and I'm currently working on getting into medical school, which I have a keen interest in cardiology and may work on specializing in. He has found my stash before and has bitched me out back in the day. He not to long ago did a triple bypass on a 30 year old (yes, 30 years of age!) who had a history of heavy AS usage.

 

[Counterstrike]

Its hard to say, but AS may induce cardiac hypertrophy. Whether It has been directly proven I dont know. Indirectly, yes.

My father is a CT surgeon and I'm currently working on getting into medical school, which I have a keen interest in cardiology and may work on specializing in. He has found my stash before and has bitched me out back in the day. He not to long ago did a triple bypass on a 30 year old (yes, 30 years of age!) who had a history of heavy AS usage.

I ain't surprised. Look at arnold. Its mostly genetics but at the same time if you abuse drugs (any drugs) its going to have an effect on your body and the main thing in your body is your heart.
I heard of so many people that their heart gave out for long abuse of drugs like coc. and roid abuse or prescribe meds mixed with other shit. That's why I'm skeptical when I hear people using 3-6 different AS at the same time, there asking for trouble.
I think you should stick to no more than two AS at once and don't abuse it and don't stay on it for long ass time. give your body a rest and let it clear itself

 

[crmdogg]

i don't see how using more than 2 aas at say a combined 1000grams versus 4 aas at 1000grams would be any worse for you?

 

[Fonz]

very interesting indeed. A fibrinolytic that does not interfer with normal blood clotting. Normal blood coagulation is dependant on the clotting cascade and in the end, the conversion of fibrinogen into stable fibrin clots. I dont see how a compound that inhibits normal blood coagulation will not interfer on a day to day basis if someone injures themselves. Do you know the specific clotting factor that this compound inhibits?

all of the points that you state about Nattokinases effects are all very important in determining cardiovascular health and risk factors. It seems as if this compound is very verstile in promoting CV health as well as being a prophylactic supp.

CRP (C-reactive protein) levels are a valuable indication of vascular inflammation and can be evaluated to determine CV pathology risk. New cardiac enzyme tests are also being employed to assess CV health.

I'm about to try out Nattokinase....I'l keep you guys updated...or make its own thread.

If it works well...I should be able to increase my VO2 Max, and be able to increase my endurance whille all the time maitaining a healthy heart due to my AAS use.

Fonz