HCG, Is It REALLY Necessary For Recovery??

[Texas Ranger]

I've been hearing alot about HCG, lately. Probably, more so than ever. How many of you feel that HCG is essential for recovery? Also, how many feel that HCG is simply NOT needed and Clomid and or Nolvadex is all you need to recover? Just curious...

 

[BrickGirl]

if your balls are like raisins, you need it to fluff them back up

 

[jubei]

Yes hcg is essential. Brick girl are you offering?

 

[Lift Chief]

HCG is NOT essential for recovery. Clomid/arimidex/clen does the job just fine unless you are on a very long or high dose cycle.

 

[Spectre]

I think HCG is needed and clomid is crap.

 

[jubei]

Forgot about using clomid INSTEAD of hcg. Yes it is an option, but wouldn't be my choice.

 

[Lift Chief]

You can not recover using just HCG... you can use HCG and clomid or nolvadex if you'd like but it is not necessary... like i said.

I've used just clomid and arimidex and i held onto my gains with no problem...

Why use something for recovery that you don't have to?

 

[jubei]

because its more effective with less side effects.

 

[Lift Chief]

Listen chief- i understand that you have 500 posts in a month so you feel like the resident expert all of the sudden. But you need to understand that you cannot recover with ONLY HCG... you need at least HCG along with clomid or nolvadex... HCG will not get you testes back up to full working order on it's own.

But hey, you're the expert here. If you want to try recovering with just HCG then... good luck with that.

 

[Juice Authority]

Listen chief- i understand that you have 500 posts in a month so you feel like the resident expert all of the sudden. But you need to understand that you cannot recover with ONLY HCG... you need at least HCG along with clomid or nolvadex... HCG will not get you testes back up to full working order on it's own.

But hey, you're the expert here. If you want to try recovering with just HCG then... good luck with that.

Very good point (about the HCG). It's also important to note that HCG is used during longer or heavier cycles to maintain testicular size and condition.

Posted by Big Cat:

The use of HCG and the things you need to know

Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin acts as an LH analogue. That means it plays no active role in increasing hypothalamic or pituitary activity after suppression, but that it will act on LH receptors such as in the Leydig cells and activate the process of natural manufacture of testosterone and estrogen in the testes. This may counter or help quicker recovery of any testicular atrophy that may have occurred during a cycle, and since it increases the capacity to produce natural hormones, will also in the end speed up recovery because the response to increase LH will be greater.

What you do need to realize is that because it acts as LH, high doses of lengthy use will decrease receptor affinity for LH and increase negative feedback, thus countering the purpose of the post-cycle. For that reason it is not used during, but rather after the cycle, and intermittent rather than continually. Since it will also increase estrogen directly and via aromatase conversion, further shutdown may be created but this should in large part be covered by your co-administration of Tamoxifen and Clomiphene. Because of its inhibitory effects on the hypothalamic-pituitary axis, we will use it during the last part of the cycle and the weeks following, when the steroids have not yet cleared our body. And cease use several weeks prior to cessation of the Clomiphene/Tamoxifen combo so as not to let it interfere with our recovery at the hypothalamus and pituitary.

I should also inform you that practical experience has taught me that while most people respond better to the intermittent administration as described above, some have responded better to more frequent administration (ed to every three days).

 

[jubei]

Who is equating knowledge with the number of posts? I was never advocating the use of Hcg alone. You're a big mouth, thats about it. Show me 1 post where I state that. You can't because full of shit. Actually I stated in several posts that nolva/clomid should be used with Hcg. Wow you have alot of posts and some karma now you can suck a good dick bitch. You fucking loser.

 

[jubei]

Why don't you check out the "Test only cycle" thread big mouth.

 

[40butpumpin]

Mad respect to my bro Lift Chief, however, I can only post what I've experienced and that is that HCG is necessary...well for me it is. I have truly been there and done various types of cycles and all I can say is that HCG has done the job for me.

Am I saying that something else wouldn't work? Definitely not. I believe completely if someone tells me that something else has worked for them. This is because I feel there is no one way to do it. There are just too many variables each carrying a different weight in the equation. I think one huge one is age. Every approach deserves equal respect and it is therefore up to us to find what will work best for each of us.

But I truly pity a young newbie trying to figure out what's "correct" when even the vet's all have different opinions and therefore advice.

 

[Lift Chief]

Who is equating knowledge with the number of posts? I was never advocating the use of Hcg alone. You're a big mouth, thats about it. Show me 1 post where I state that. You can't because full of shit. Actually I stated in several posts that nolva/clomid should be used with Hcg. Wow you have alot of posts and some karma now you can suck a good dick bitch. You fucking loser.

You certainly implied that you should use HCG alone.

You also claimed you needed hcg on all cycles- which as most will tell you is untrue.

You need hcg for long or particularly heavy cycles... and stop being all anti- clomid just because nelson is.

The "sides" you get from clomid are almost entirely the result of hormonal changes your body goes through post-cycle, regardless of which compound you use.

Acne and emotional shit are caused by the hormonal fluctuations, not the clomid. Now visual tracers are another story but only a small number of people get there and they are easily taken care of.

I can get about 10 studies that show clomid to be effective in bringing natural test levels back.... but even if you don't like clomid you can just use nolva which is almost entirely the same thing.

Have a nice day

 

[jubei]

I said you should use hcg alone, really? Why don't you ask 40butpumpin because I had the opposite stance and posted exerpts from 2 articles a couple hours ago. Again with the "newbie" bullshit. You have no point. I don't care about how many posts you have...its not substitute for a brain, or a point.

 

[Lift Chief]

I said you should use hcg alone, really? Why don't you ask 40butpumpin because I had the opposite stance and posted exerpts from 2 articles a couple hours ago. Again with the "newbie" bullshit. You have no point. I don't care about how many posts you have...its not substitute for a brain, or a point.

I base my opinions about you on your post content- not on the number of posts you have. It's alright though- people like you quickly get weeded out over time.

My point is that you dont NEED HCG... can you understand that?

I feel that it may very well be helpful even on regular duration cycles... but the benefits will only be slightly more than typical clomid/arimidex post cycle therapy.

 

[Lift Chief]

Mad respect to my bro Lift Chief, however, I can only post what I've experienced and that is that HCG is necessary...well for me it is. I have truly been there and done various types of cycles and all I can say is that HCG has done the job for me.

Am I saying that something else wouldn't work? Definitely not. I believe completely if someone tells me that something else has worked for them. This is because I feel there is no one way to do it. There are just too many variables each carrying a different weight in the equation. I think one huge one is age. Every approach deserves equal respect and it is therefore up to us to find what will work best for each of us.

But I truly pity a young newbie trying to figure out what's "correct" when even the vet's all have different opinions and therefore advice.

I appreciate what you're saying... it's cool if someone disagrees if they do it in a respectful way.

I agree that HCG would be more necessary for someone as they get older because as we age it's more difficult to recover our natural test production- as we all know.

For the younger guys i think clomid or nolva and arimidex would suffice, but certainly if you want to do HCG it would do no harm, and will probably have some benefit.

40but did you do hcg only or did you run clomid or nolva as well?

 

[jubei]

I was simply stating my own opinion and you starting to be disrespectful. If you aren't judging me on my number of posts why bring it up? I'd like to hear an explination for that. You made an incorrect assumption about me and tried to talk shit about me being a "newbie" and bullshit like that. You talk out of your ass, and your basically just a big mouth, but thats good if you like to suck dick. What I said was, Hcg is more effective at bring test levels back up. If you had checked out my posts on the "test only cycle..." thread you would have seen that you were wrong. You're just too stupid, and now if you go look you will really feel like a moron. Wow, you've been on Elite Fitness for 6 months.

 

[jubei]

You basically just talked shit about 40butpumpin because of the disrespectful way you talked about HIS opinion. Hey retard, talk you way out of that one. Go buy some more karma.

 

[Lift Chief]

I was simply stating my own opinion and you starting to be disrespectful. If you aren't judging me on my number of posts why bring it up? I'd like to hear an explination for that. You made an incorrect assumption about me and tried to talk shit about me being a "newbie" and bullshit like that. You talk out of your ass, and your basically just a big mouth, but thats good if you like to suck dick. What I said was, Hcg is more effective at bring test levels back up. If you had checked out my posts on the "test only cycle..." thread you would have seen that you were wrong. You're just too stupid, and now if you go look you will really feel like a moron. Wow, you've been on Elite Fitness for 6 months.

LOL.... you truly are a simpleton. Please post the link where "i was proven wrong, but am just too stupid to realize". Appreciate it.

I brought up your number of posts because you have over 500 posts in a months time. This leads me to believe, besides that you have no life, that you feel like because you have acquired these posts you feel like some sort of expert and you can therefore go around telling people to, as you so eloquently put it, "suck a dick"? Very well then, off to do that as per your suggestion. Is that a good enough explanation as to why i brought up the number of posts? There are some people here who have less posts than me but much more knowledge about AS... you, however, are not one of them.

Regards,
The chief--

 

[bbforlife]

I had nuts that i could find . . . til HCG came to the rescue. I also seemed to be more hore and my orgasims were more intense.Is that do to the slightly raised testosterone levels that it produces?

 

[jubei]

You have over 300 posts a month idiot. I directed you to the "test only cycle..." thread, this will be the third time dipshit. Can't you find it on the board, damn and you call me a simpleton. I post while at work because I work on the internet and I am a manager. I don't actually have anything to do except monitor my workers, look busy and fire people. You can't even get your story straight. First, I'm a newbie and thats why I don't know anything. Than, its' not because I'm a "newbie", now its because of the number of posts again. You goofy bastard. Who wants to be the village people indian chief anyways. Good to know you'll be putting that gaping maw of yours to good use. And I will stand by my opinion that Hcg is a must have for any cycle. So is nolvadex as I stated, not because you NEED them everytime, but because if you do need them they are on hand.

 

[40butpumpin]

40but did you do hcg only or did you run clomid or nolva as well?

I ran hcg by itself a few times and had good results. I then tried using clomid once after hcg and felt horrible from it. Since then I've used hcg by itself and again, have had good results. That makes it an easy call for me. But whenever I make a cycle suggestion I always say something like "clomid is used by many bro's so you may want to check into that as well." I've never used ndex.

 

[RABS]

Ok guys is it safe to say that "IF" clomid and nolva does NOT return you to where you should be after your cycle that you should take HCG ??

 

[Lift Chief]

You have over 300 posts a month idiot. I directed you to the "test only cycle..." thread, this will be the third time dipshit. Can't you find it on the board, damn and you call me a simpleton. I post while at work because I work on the internet and I am a manager. I don't actually have anything to do except monitor my workers, look busy and fire people. You can't even get your story straight. First, I'm a newbie and thats why I don't know anything. Than, its' not because I'm a "newbie", now its because of the number of posts again. You goofy bastard. Who wants to be the village people indian chief anyways. Good to know you'll be putting that gaping maw of yours to good use. And I will stand by my opinion that Hcg is a must have for any cycle. So is nolvadex as I stated, not because you NEED them everytime, but because if you do need them they are on hand.

Wow, you are a manager... woooooooo i'll bet you make the big bucks. Hahaha. I said you were a newbie- but i didnt say the fact that you were a newbie is why you didnt know anything. I said the fact that you dont know anything is why you dont konw anything.

This is tiresome and i should have dropped this long ago. Use HCG if you want, i won't.

Someone needs to be the bigger person and stop this--

Oh, and stop posting threads about me- although it is kind of funny.

The "village people" chief--

 

[Phreaky]

I'll keep it simple and to the point...HCG just delays the inevitable. It gives a temporary solution to recovery. It does nothing to speed it up. Sorry, I'm sure this is what most of you don't want to hear. You will eventaully crash, mabye not as hard with HCG, but it WILL happen!

 

[lawnsaver]

Guys...instead of fighting, just read this post. I keep it simple and it proven and backed up by an expert in HRT and HPTA therapy. HCG is an important part of every cycle.

This link below has some great info. I just added some more info to really sum it up.

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/clomid-hcg.asp

Yes...good basic info.

This is where they didnt clarify. You should take the HCG while the steroids are still present in your system. Why? Because the HCG will only prolong the recovery process. Also, HCG will revert the atrophy while a synthetic androgen is still present.

Now we have to speak about something that happens 5% of the time. Sometimes the atrophy wont revert. This is bad. I have one testicle that didnt respond to HCG treatment.

Now, how can we make sure this doesnt happen??

Take small doses( 500ius-1000ius) twice a week throughout the entire cycle. This will keep the LH signal to the testicles going, which will keep the testicles from going into atrophy. This dosing schedule would have saved the testicle I lost.

Although taking 500-1000ius Ed for the last 2 weeks of a cycle to revert the atrophy works 95% of the time, sometimes it doesnt. This dosing schedule I talked about above will make sure no atrophy will set in.

Now I will still take 500ius ED for the last 7-10 days too. This will make sure the testicles are back to full size and this will leave the job that the clomid has to do easier, which will allow a much better recovery of the HPTA.

I hope this helps clear things up a little more!


This next part was a reply to a thread on steroidology.com which asked if HCG is needed for recovery.


HCG does nothing for recovery. HCG actually suppresses the HPTA. HCG should only be used during a cycle, either during the last 2 weeks at 500-1000IUS ED, or taken in those same doses 2 times per week throughout your cycle. HCG's job is to prevent or revert testicular atrophy brought on by the suppression of ones HPTA.

To make it simple: HCG should be used during a cycle to prevent atrophy from setting in. Atrophy is when your testicles shrink because of a lack of LH signal to them. HCG gives that signal, which will prevent the atrophy from setting in.

I truely think HCG should be a preventive measure during every cycle!

 

[Juice Authority]

This next part was a reply to a thread on steroidology.com which asked if HCG is needed for recovery.

HCG does nothing for recovery. HCG actually suppresses the HPTA. HCG should only be used during a cycle, either during the last 2 weeks at 500-1000IUS ED, or taken in those same doses 2 times per week throughout your cycle. HCG's job is to prevent or revert testicular atrophy brought on by the suppression of ones HPTA.

Already beat ya to it earlier in this thread.

 

[Lift Chief]

Guys...instead of fighting, just read this post. I keep it simple and it proven and backed up by an expert in HRT and HPTA therapy. HCG is an important part of every cycle.

This link below has some great info. I just added some more info to really sum it up.

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/clomid-hcg.asp

Yes...good basic info.

This is where they didnt clarify. You should take the HCG while the steroids are still present in your system. Why? Because the HCG will only prolong the recovery process. Also, HCG will revert the atrophy while a synthetic androgen is still present.

Now we have to speak about something that happens 5% of the time. Sometimes the atrophy wont revert. This is bad. I have one testicle that didnt respond to HCG treatment.

Now, how can we make sure this doesnt happen??

Take small doses( 500ius-1000ius) twice a week throughout the entire cycle. This will keep the LH signal to the testicles going, which will keep the testicles from going into atrophy. This dosing schedule would have saved the testicle I lost.

Although taking 500-1000ius Ed for the last 2 weeks of a cycle to revert the atrophy works 95% of the time, sometimes it doesnt. This dosing schedule I talked about above will make sure no atrophy will set in.

Now I will still take 500ius ED for the last 7-10 days too. This will make sure the testicles are back to full size and this will leave the job that the clomid has to do easier, which will allow a much better recovery of the HPTA.

I hope this helps clear things up a little more!


This next part was a reply to a thread on steroidology.com which asked if HCG is needed for recovery.


HCG does nothing for recovery. HCG actually suppresses the HPTA. HCG should only be used during a cycle, either during the last 2 weeks at 500-1000IUS ED, or taken in those same doses 2 times per week throughout your cycle. HCG's job is to prevent or revert testicular atrophy brought on by the suppression of ones HPTA.

To make it simple: HCG should be used during a cycle to prevent atrophy from setting in. Atrophy is when your testicles shrink because of a lack of LH signal to them. HCG gives that signal, which will prevent the atrophy from setting in.

I truely think HCG should be a preventive measure during every cycle!

I thought HCG provided mainly the cosmetic effect of reversing testicular atrophy right away at the end of a long cycle?

If your testicles don't atrophy i can't see a point in taking HCG-

 

[Juice Authority]

I thought HCG provided mainly the cosmetic effect of reversing testicular atrophy right away at the end of a long cycle?

If your testicles don't atrophy i can't see a point in taking HCG-

I found this study interesting. It addresses your question...

The use of HCG and the things you need to know

Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin acts as an LH analogue. That means it plays no active role in increasing hypothalamic or pituitary activity after suppression, but that it will act on LH receptors such as in the Leydig cells and activate the process of natural manufacture of testosterone and estrogen in the testes. This may counter or help quicker recovery of any testicular atrophy that may have occurred during a cycle, and since it increases the capacity to produce natural hormones, will also in the end speed up recovery because the response to increase LH will be greater.

What you do need to realize is that because it acts as LH, high doses of lengthy use will decrease receptor affinity for LH and increase negative feedback, thus countering the purpose of the post-cycle. For that reason it is not used during, but rather after the cycle, and intermittent rather than continually. Since it will also increase estrogen directly and via aromatase conversion, further shutdown may be created but this should in large part be covered by your co-administration of Tamoxifen and Clomiphene. Because of its inhibitory effects on the hypothalamic-pituitary axis, we will use it during the last part of the cycle and the weeks following, when the steroids have not yet cleared our body. And cease use several weeks prior to cessation of the Clomiphene/Tamoxifen combo so as not to let it interfere with our recovery at the hypothalamus and pituitary.

 

[lawnsaver]

I thought HCG provided mainly the cosmetic effect of reversing testicular atrophy right away at the end of a long cycle?

If your testicles don't atrophy i can't see a point in taking HCG-

Did you read the post? Some atrophy will not revert. It happened to me. What do you do them?? Go to K-Mart and buy a new one?

The point being is to prevent the atrophy!! Why wait till something is broke to fix it? Prevent it!

Think about Gyno. Once you have it, its almost impossible to get rid of it unless you seak surgury. I stuck to the usual plan and waited until the last 2 weeks of my cycle and I wasnt able to revert my atrophy. If I would have used small amounts throughout my cycle, I would have prevented the atrophy from ever occuring.

This is where we go wrong when we think of how to truely use HCG properly. Yes...95% of the time you can revert the atrophy, but if there was a way to prevent it, without doing any damage, wouldnt you want to do it?

People say Anti-A' and E's hinder gains, but they use them anyway as a preventive meassure. This is how we should use HCG.

JA...I'm glad you tried to spread the word, but it seems as you didnt put into words where people understood what you truely meant.

I was just helping out. Guys, I have been schooled by Swale on this very subject. Swale is a board certified doctor, who has vast experience using and advising on Gear. What a concept...LOL...A Doctor who really knows what the hell he is talking about.

You can use HCG as you have in the past, which usually works, but what about the 1 time that it doesnt work? The one time you can not revert the atrophy. You are screwed. Use this dosing schedule and you will prevent the atrophy from ever happening.

Prevention is always the way to go!

 

[Lift Chief]

Did you read the post? Some atrophy will not revert. It happened to me. What do you do them?? Go to K-Mart and buy a new one?

The point being is to prevent the atrophy!! Why wait till something is broke to fix it? Prevent it!

Think about Gyno. Once you have it, its almost impossible to get rid of it unless you seak surgury. I stuck to the usual plan and waited until the last 2 weeks of my cycle and I wasnt able to revert my atrophy. If I would have used small amounts throughout my cycle, I would have prevented the atrophy from ever occuring.

This is where we go wrong when we think of how to truely use HCG properly. Yes...95% of the time you can revert the atrophy, but if there was a way to prevent it, without doing any damage, wouldnt you want to do it?

People say Anti-A' and E's hinder gains, but they use them anyway as a preventive meassure. This is how we should use HCG.

JA...I'm glad you tried to spread the word, but it seems as you didnt put into words where people understood what you truely meant.

I was just helping out. Guys, I have been schooled by Swale on this very subject. Swale is a board certified doctor, who has vast experience using and advising on Gear. What a concept...LOL...A Doctor who really knows what the hell he is talking about.

You can use HCG as you have in the past, which usually works, but what about the 1 time that it doesnt work? The one time you can not revert the atrophy. You are screwed. Use this dosing schedule and you will prevent the atrophy from ever happening.

Prevention is always the way to go!

What you're saying makes sense. I never thoght taking HCG could hurt anything- i just didn't think it was necessary. But for those that get testicular atrophy i think it makes sense to use it during a cycle.

 

[cdownie927]

whoever can help I can get Pregnol hcg if thats spelled right 5000iu Would it be enough to split it up and run 2500iu twice a week for three weeks I dont want to go threw the process of puying vials and water. I guess 5000iu would be one cc so if i did a half twice a week would that be cool with nolvadex of course

 

[Tricepratus]

I think that both are neccesary. You want to restore your endogenous level as soon as possible and both use different pathways to do that. HCG "shock" your sytem for produce test mimic LH, a pituitary hormone that estimulate Leydis cells in testes to manufacture testosterone. You can see it like a fast acting (like prop as AAS ). While Clomid, like anti e oppose negative feedback of on HPHT axis which enhances the releas of LH and FSH. It action is more slow and steady. You are attacking the problem by two sides. Like Bagdad in that moment, only that Bagdad is being atack by North,South;east, West, Air, sea, earth,for all sides.
You can not use HCg for long time so Clomid will do work then

 

[jubei]

Now you admit you don't know what your talking about. If it is his first cycle, how would he know if he is prone to testicular atrophy. Stop and think before you post nonsense next time.

I never thoght taking HCG could hurt anything- i just didn't think it was necessary. But for those that get testicular atrophy i think it makes sense to use it during a cycle.

If your testicles don't atrophy i can't see a point in taking HCG-

The point of taking hcg throughout the entire cycle is to make sure the tecsticles won't attrophy.

 

[Juice Authority]

And the games begin....

 

[jubei]

game/set/match...Its all over.

 

[lawnsaver]

I think that both are neccesary. You want to restore your endogenous level as soon as possible and both use different pathways to do that. HCG "shock" your sytem for produce test mimic LH, a pituitary hormone that estimulate Leydis cells in testes to manufacture testosterone. You can see it like a fast acting (like prop as AAS ). While Clomid, like anti e oppose negative feedback of on HPHT axis which enhances the releas of LH and FSH. It action is more slow and steady. You are attacking the problem by two sides. Like Bagdad in that moment, only that Bagdad is being atack by North,South;east, West, Air, sea, earth,for all sides.
You can not use HCg for long time so Clomid will do work then

Your thinking is a little off. If you use the doses required to "shock" your Testicles into producing test, you can desensitize yourself, and cause gyno from the large dose.

Also, as soon as the signal is gone, your testicles will stop producing. So this could cause an even greater inhibition of ones HPTA. If you take it well before clomid and use it to keep the atrophy from setting in, clomid will be able to do a much better job at restoring your HPTA.

HCG does nothing to restore HPTA. So it does nothing for recovery. What it does do is prevents atrophy from setting in and setting up a much easier job for clomid. If clomid only has to worry about restoring your HPTA and not reverting atrophy, your recovery will be much more productive.

Just in theory, why would we want to shock our body into doing anything? You are just setting yourself up for regression, as your body strives for homiostasis.

 

[jubei]

Chief, here you go, chew on this for a while. This is the same exerpt that I posted on the "test only cycle..." thread that you were too lazy to look at. Enjoy


The downside is that HCG too is suppressive of natural
testosterone. Because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain of command, instead its manufactured in the pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) which is secreted from the hypothalamus. And since an LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously, the negative feedback signal to the hypothalamus will still tell it to stop making GnRH, and so no natural LH is produced. This is why the product is always used in conjunction with a potent estrogen receptor antagonist like clomid or Nolvadex. When the androgen level in the body has dropped, these antagonists will lower estrogenic response creating a steroid deficit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH. When it does, after HCG therapy, testicle size is up again and shortly thereafter natural testosterone manufacture should return to normal. But therefore its crucial that users note that though HCG is essential after long cycles, it shouldn't be used without clomid or Nolvadex AND HCG should be discontinued at least two weeks before coming off Clomid or Nolvadex or else it will suppress natural testosterone itself.

 

[jubei]

Lawn saver,

I hear what you are saying about using hcg to make sure testicular atrophy does not occur, but if you use hcg for too long you risk desensitising your body to LH. What are you thoughts on that? Another exerpt to show where I'm coming from:

You would normally opt to use HCG after you've done a long cycle, usually 8 weeks or more. Note that almost all proper cycles are 8 weeks or more in length, its just that some beginners have a phobia of needles and opt to waste their time with an all oral stack first, in which case the cycle wouldn't be longer than 6-7 weeks. In these cases too HCG can have a use, but most of the time testicular atrophy will not have progressed to such a stage that it is an absolute necessity. In any case, you should run it about 3 weeks, totaling about 4 shots. One every 5-6 days. Start off with one shot of 3000 IU somewhere in the last week of your stack, then another 3000 5 days later, then drop to 1500 5 days later and a last shot of 1500 6 days after that. Sometime after the second or third shot, therapy with Nolvadex or clomid should be commenced and continued for 4-5 weeks. How to do this, I refer you to the Nolva/clomid profile.

In any case, I'll repeat it again, since it is important. HCG IS and always will be an important part of post-cycle recovery, but it should never be run too long or at too high a dose and should always be accompanied by the use of either Clomid or Nolvadex. The use of Clomid or Nolvadex should also be continued at least 2 weeks after HCG is discontinued to avoid the HCG causing problems

 

[Lift Chief]

Now you admit you don't know what your talking about. If it is his first cycle, how would he know if he is prone to testicular atrophy. Stop and think before you post nonsense next time.






The point of taking hcg throughout the entire cycle is to make sure the tecsticles won't attrophy.

You pretentious prick. I still stand by what i said that for a first cycle a newbie does not need HCG... this is from my experience and that of many people i've talked to. Things should not be complicated for a first cycle- especially when the potential is there to desensitive the testes to LH.

If you're prone to testicular atrophy then you should take it.

 

[Lift Chief]

Chief, here you go, chew on this for a while. This is the same exerpt that I posted on the "test only cycle..." thread that you were too lazy to look at. Enjoy


The downside is that HCG too is suppressive of natural
testosterone. Because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain of command, instead its manufactured in the pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) which is secreted from the hypothalamus. And since an LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously, the negative feedback signal to the hypothalamus will still tell it to stop making GnRH, and so no natural LH is produced. This is why the product is always used in conjunction with a potent estrogen receptor antagonist like clomid or Nolvadex. When the androgen level in the body has dropped, these antagonists will lower estrogenic response creating a steroid deficit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH. When it does, after HCG therapy, testicle size is up again and shortly thereafter natural testosterone manufacture should return to normal. But therefore its crucial that users note that though HCG is essential after long cycles, it shouldn't be used without clomid or Nolvadex AND HCG should be discontinued at least two weeks before coming off Clomid or Nolvadex or else it will suppress natural testosterone itself.

First of all- i'll look at threads when i feel like i'll learn something from them. Obviously, i knew you had nothing new to add except the same excerpts i've read 100 times. You're proving nothing- i've known all this from the start- which is why i said to take nolva or clomid with HCG. There are mixed opinions on HCG... i have mine, lawnsaver has his. I believe in studies to a certain extent, but htey are not the end all be all.

Since i respect lawnsaver, and the experience he has, i acknowledged that it is better to be safe than sorry when you konw you're prone to testicular atrophy- so using HCG would have some benefit.

I'd be surprised if you even understood that i'm not disagreeing with you... i've believed most things that excerpt said from the start of this thread.

Don't you hate newbies that think they know it all?

 

[jubei]

Its okay, I'm through making you looks stupid, you do a good enough job of that on your own...well almost. If you read these articles 100 times as you claim how come you thought Hcg was mainly for cosmetic purposes. You made a presumption about me and my opinions which was incorrect and then you figured you had to stand by it until the bitter end. I can't win an argument against someone who changes their stance every second post.

 

[Juice Authority]

Its okay, I'm through making you looks stupid, you do a good enough job of that on your own...well almost. If you read these articles 100 times as you claim how come you thought Hcg was mainly for cosmetic purposes. You made a presumption about me and my opinions which was incorrect and then you figured you had to stand by it until the bitter end. I can't win an argument against someone who changes their stance every second post.

In all honesty here, I would not recommend HCG to a newbie for a first cycle. Here's why:

If it's his first cycle there is no reason to push the mg dosage to a point that would cause atrophy. Also, Deca and Tren are two of leading AS that cause atrophy, which, IMO, a newbie shouldn't be using for a his first cycle. A responsible first cycle would look like something like this:

Solid first cycle

Week 1 to 10: 400mg of EQ
Week 1 to 10: 250-500mg's of Test Enan or CYP (single ester)
Week 13 to 15: Clomid Therapy*

*Clomid therapy: 36 pills. 300mg day 1, 100mg next 10, 50mg final 10.

There really isn't a need for HCG on a cycle like this.

 

[Juice Authority]

This is why I like Nelson's ideas about shorter cycles. If you keep it relatively short you lessen the need for all this fancy footwork with recovery & estrogen blockage. I'm going to give proviron a shot next time.

With all due respect to our dearly departed Nelson I disagree completely with his theory on Proviron versus Clomid/Nolva. He provided very little to substantiate his reasonings for that. Also, shorter cycles are fine if you intend to do them year-round and only use fast-acting esters. I personally haven't seen much in the real or scientific world of evidence the shows the gains made from 2 week cycles are more sustainable on a annualized basis than your typical 8-12 week cycles.

 

[Lift Chief]

I'm not taking anyone's word for it. I'm finding out for myself. But for the record Nelson's suggestion was 3-week cycles; even he admitted two weeks was pointless.
I just prefer 9 or less.

A 3 week cycle with short acting gear makes a certain amount of sense. I would never use long acting gear like he suggested though- just doesn't seem to go along with the short cycle philosophy.

 

[Dark_Stalker]

I did one cycle of test dbol and used only clomid post cycle and I wouldnt even notice hormonal changes.. I ran nolva 10mg ed from day 1 and thats it... Clomid started 2 weeks after last inject (maybe 3 weeks not sure) 300mg first day of clomid therapy followed by 50mg ed for 2 weeks...

I wanted to know if HCG IS absolutely necessary but it seems to be spit in two opinions/experience.

I didnt have any side effect with the clomid so I guess I,ll stick with that.

 

[Tricepratus]

Your thinking is a little off. If you use the doses required to "shock" your Testicles into producing test, you can desensitize yourself, and cause gyno from the large dose.

Also, as soon as the signal is gone, your testicles will stop producing. So this could cause an even greater inhibition of ones HPTA. If you take it well before clomid and use it to keep the atrophy from setting in, clomid will be able to do a much better job at restoring your HPTA.

HCG does nothing to restore HPTA. So it does nothing for recovery. What it does do is prevents atrophy from setting in and setting up a much easier job for clomid. If clomid only has to worry about restoring your HPTA and not reverting atrophy, your recovery will be much more productive.

Just in theory, why would we want to shock our body into doing anything? You are just setting yourself up for regression, as your body strives for homiostasis.

Please read the jubei post, somewhere up.
I am not talking about megadoses and one month in HCG teraphy.
I am talking about normal dose, like jubei post and for only two or three weeks teraphy of HCG, in that quantity and length of time the HCG not desensiblizite the LH and so on.
I say that it is better to use two pathways of teraphy to restore your endogenous testosterone level as soon as possible but in reasonable and study dosages.