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Go ahead and delete it Rocket Boy (my affectionate term for Fonz)

Big Johnson

Big Johnson

New member
Unlike some, I am usually able to back up what I say with facts or personal experience. How smart are you now, Fonz? There's more to come :)

From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10677393&dopt=Abstract

Deleterious effects of chronic clenbuterol treatment on endurance and sprint exercise performance in rats.

Duncan ND, Williams DA, Lynch GS.

Department of Physiology, The University of Melbourne, Parkville, Victoria 3052, Australia.

The beta(2)-adrenergic agonist, clenbuterol, has powerful muscle anabolic and lipolytic effects and is used by athletes to improve exercise performance; however, its use in conjunction with different forms of exercise training has received limited attention. Since previous studies have reported that chronic use of other beta(2)-adrenergic agonists has deleterious effects on cardiac muscle structure and function, the aim of the present study was to determine whether chronic clenbuterol administration would reduce the exercise capabilities of rats subjected to long-term treadmill sprint running, endurance swimming or voluntary wheel running training. The effect of clenbuterol treatment on exercise performance in rats was evaluated in three separate studies. Different groups of male rats were assigned to an endurance swimming (2 h/day, 5/7 days, 18 weeks) group, a treadmill sprint running (8x1 min bouts, 1.05 m/s, 20 weeks) group, or a voluntary wheel running (16 weeks) group. In each study, rats were allocated into either a treated group that received clenbuterol (2 mg.kg(-1).day(-1)) in their drinking water or an untreated control group. In each of the three studies, treated rats exhibited a reduction in exercise performance compared with untreated rats. Treated rats ran approximately 57% less total distance than untreated rats in the voluntary running programme and were unable to complete the swimming and sprinting protocols performed by the untreated rats. In each of the studies, the treated rats exhibited cardiac hypertrophy, with absolute heart mass increased by approximately 19% and heart mass relative to body mass increased by approximately 20%. The hearts of sedentary rats treated with clenbuterol exhibited extensive collagen infiltration surrounding blood vessels and in the wall of the left ventricle. The results indicate strongly that chronic clenbuterol administration deleteriously affects exercise performance in rats, potentially due to alterations in cardiac muscle structure and function.

PMID: 10677393 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Fire back, Rocket Boy. We are all waiting for the numerous studies you will post that will refute mine.



Fonz said:


I was sooooooo waiting for this moment......

MOD, please post ANY DATA regarding clen's effects on the
heart. And I do mean ANY!!!!

You're a complete moron, and you just proved it.

Clen is a SELECTIVE BETA-2 adrenorecptor agonist.

B-2's have NO EFFECT ON HEART RATE AT ALL.

B-1's are the beta-adrenoreceptors that are
involved in heart rythm.

Pay-back is soooooooo sweat.........!!!!!!!

Godspeed
Click to expand...

Who's the moron?
 
Last edited:
From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10897101&dopt=Abstract

Beta-agonist-induced alterations in organ weights and protein content: comparison of racemic clenbuterol and its enantiomers.

von Deutsch DA, Abukhalaf IK, Wineski LE, Aboul-Enein HY, Pitts SA, Parks BA, Oster RA, Paulsen DF, Potter DE.

Musculoskeletal Research Group, Space Medicine and Life Sciences Research Center, Morehouse School of Medicine, Atlanta, Georgia 30310-1495, USA. [email protected]

Clenbuterol is a relatively selective beta2-adrenergic partial agonist that has bronchodilator activity. This drug has been investigated as a potential countermeasure to microgravity- or disuse-induced skeletal muscle atrophy because of presumed anabolic effects. The purpose of this study was to: 1) analyze the anabolic effect of clenbuterol's (-)-R and (+)-S enantiomers (0.2 mg/kg) on muscles (cardiac and skeletal) and other organs; and 2) compare responses of enantiomers to the racemate (0.4 mg/kg and 1.0 mg/kg). Male Sprague Dawley rats were treated with: a) racemic clenbuterol (rac-clenbuterol, 0.4 or 1.0 mg/kg); b) enantiomers [clenbuterol (-)-R or (+)-S]; or c) vehicle (1.0 mL/kg buffered saline). Anabolic activity was determined by measuring tissue mass and protein content. HPLC teicoplanin chiral stationary phase was used to directly resolve racemic clenbuterol to its individual enantiomers. In skeletal muscle, both enantiomers had equal anabolic activity, and the effects were muscle- and anatomic region-specific in magnitude. Although the enantiomers did not affect the ventricular mass to body weight ratio, clenbuterol (+)-S induced a small but significant increase in ventricular mass. Both clenbuterol enantiomers produced significant increases in skeletal muscle mass, while being less active in producing cardiac ventricular muscle hypertrophy than the racemic mixture. Copyright 2000 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

PMID: 10897101 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9580224&dopt=Abstract

Polyamine-mediated heart hypertrophy induced by clenbuterol in the mouse.

Cubria JC, Reguera R, Balana-Fouce R, Ordonez C, Ordonez D.

Departamento de Fisiologia, Farmacologia y Toxicologia (Intoxcal), Universidad de Leon, Campus de Vegazana, Spain.

The use of beta-agonists as growth-promoting agents in cattle could lead to toxic side-effects in man. One such effect is the accumulation of polyamines which seem to be implicated in muscle and heart hypertrophy. We have studied the induction of cardiac hypertrophy after treatment with clenbuterol and the role of polyamines in this effect. Treatment of mice with repeated doses of clenbuterol, a specific beta-adrenergic agonist, resulted in a marked increase in heart muscle weight whereas total body weight did not change significantly. Clenbuterol-linked cardiac hypertrophy could be prevented by co-administration of either the non-specific beta-adrenergic antagonist, propranolol, or the irreversible inhibitor of ornithine decarboxylase, alpha-difluoromethylornithine. The clenbuterol-induced cardiac hypertrophy was associated with a corresponding increase in the level of the polyamines putrescine, spermidine and spermine. These observations are indicative of the role of polyamines in cardiac hypertrophy induced by clenbuterol.

PMID: 9580224 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9539865&dopt=Abstract

Clenbuterol induces cardiac hypertrophy with normal functional, morphological and molecular features.

Wong K, Boheler KR, Bishop J, Petrou M, Yacoub MH.

Division of Cardiothoracic Surgery, National Heart and Lung Institute, Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine, London, UK.

OBJECTIVE: Several pharmacological agents have been shown to produce 'physiological' or 'pathological' hypertrophy based on their functional characteristics. The aim of this study was to examine the features of cardiac hypertrophy induced by the selective beta 2-adrenergic agonist, clenbuterol. METHODS: Cardiac hypertrophy was induced in 7-week-old Sprague-Dawley rats by daily injections of clenbuterol for 3 weeks. Thyroxine and isoproterenol were also used to produce cardiac hypertrophy to serve as positive controls for physiological and pathological hypertrophy, respectively. Left ventricular function was determined using an isolated rat heart preparation. Ventricular samples were used for morphological examination while interstitial collagen was measured using high-pressure liquid chromatography. Expression of sarcoplasmic reticulum Ca(2+)-ATPase2a (SERCA2a) and phospholamban (PLB) were measured by dot blot analysis. RESULTS: Clenbuterol treatment induced 26% left ventricular hypertrophy. These hearts demonstrated normal systolic isovolumic parameters and diastolic (active relaxation and passive stiffness) function. In addition, left ventricular concentration of collagen and morphology was normal as were the expression of SERCA2a and PLB mRNA. CONCLUSION: These results suggest that clenbuterol-induced hypertrophy is 'physiological' in terms of its function, extracellular structure and gene expression.

PMID: 9539865 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Interesting studies BJ,however,you are aware that all these studies are not performed on human tissue right?We need evidence from that department to solidify this argument,as genetic response/receptor affinity will vary greatly from animal to mammalian species...
 
HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex said:
Interesting studies BJ,however,you are aware that all these studies are not performed on human tissue right?We need evidence from that department to solidify this argument,as genetic response/receptor affinity will vary greatly from animal to mammalian species...
Click to expand...

..as smart as that sounds... the rat is usually a good model.. Rats and humans have more in common than you think... especially Amaf.
 
The biological structure of the rat is identical to that of the human, with virtually every bone, muscle, organ, and biological process the same. This includes cell types, proteins, and hormones, as well. That is one reason they have been used so extensively in non-human testing. Most of the time an accurate prediction of human response can be made from testing on Norway rats or their domesticates.

However, what is interesting to note is that these studies say nothing about the long term effects of clenbuterol on heart tissue. I'm almost certain that the enlargening of the heart is temporary, and that short-term clenbuterol treatment could be safely given to all but those with pre existing heart conditions.

Actually, what we really need here is a study on the long-term effects of clambutteroil. Anyone have a link to that one?
 
No deaths were reported in several European incidents involving the consumption of liver with clenbuterol residues. Spain reported two outbreaks of illness in 1990 totaling 135 persons who consumed contaminated beef liver. Samples had clenbuterol concentrations of 160 to 291 parts per billion. The people were hospitalized with reversible symptoms of increased heart rate, muscular tremors, headache, nausea, fever, and chills.

Clenbuterol was suspected, but not confirmed, as the cause of an earlier outbreak of illness, also in Spain. A similar incident with 22 cases, also traced to beef liver, was reported from France. Clenbuterol was also a concern in Ireland in 1991.

Although the toxic effects of clenbuterol residues have been described as mild, FDA considers all unintended effects on humans to be unacceptable. FDA said it is possible that persons being treated with adrenergic agents or who are otherwise sensitive to these drugs, may be far more severely affected by residues of clenbuterol than are normal, healthy individuals.

FDA is also concerned that the illicit use of clenbuterol could lead to illness or death in persons handling the drug. FDA said it is possible that clenbuterol effects on the cardiovascular system may be more hazardous via occupational inhalation exposure than via ingestion in food. But FDA said it has not been able to confirm reports of such reactions.
 
HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex said:
Interesting studies BJ,however,you are aware that all these studies are not performed on human tissue right?We need evidence from that department to solidify this argument,as genetic response/receptor affinity will vary greatly from animal to mammalian species...
Click to expand...


I thought that most studies of human interest are indeed performed on rats because of the striking physiological similarities between rat organs and human organs.
 
Year-long clenbuterol treatment of mice increases mass, but not specific force or normalized power, of skeletal muscles.
Clin Exp Pharmacol Physiol 1999 Feb;26(2):117-20
Lynch GS, Hinkle RT, Faulkner JA
Institute of Gerontology, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, USA.

Clenbuterol has been proposed for the treatment of muscle wasting disorders, but its long-term effects on skeletal muscle function have not been tested rigorously. We tested the hypothesis that year-long treatment of young (6 months) mice with clenbuterol would increase skeletal muscle mass and in vitro measurements of specific force (Po) and power output.

Clenbuterol treatment increased the absolute mass of each muscle tested: the heart by 28%, extensor digitorum longus (EDL) by 16%, soleus by 22% and tibialis anterior by 17%. For treated compared with untreated mice, absolute Po (mN) was greater in soleus muscles but not different in EDL muscles. Absolute power output (mW) of the EDL and soleus muscles was not different and no differences were observed for the specific Po (kN/m2) or normalized power output (W/kg) of EDL muscles, soleus muscles or diaphragm muscle strips.

We conclude that, following year-long treatment of mice with clenbuterol, the mass of the heart and both fast and slow skeletal muscles is increased, but the lack of any change in normalized Po or power output indicates that clenbuterol has little therapeutic effect on the functional properties of skeletal muscle.
DrO
 
Big Johnson

Do you know if clen has any adverse affect on blood pressure. Also if there was left ventricular hypertrophy I take it that under any stress heart rate went up beyond the normal gradient (due to reduced stroke volume?, I am not sure).

Anyway, very informative!
 
I was going to ask if the heart enlargening effects were shown to be permanent or not, but you hit on that in a later post Big J. Long term studies would definitely be useful. None of those studies mentioned what happened to the rats' hearts once clambutteroil administration was ceased, eh?
I didn't realize we had such simialr physiologies to rats. Does this mean it's not so weird to rape and molest the little buggers?
 
"ultra" style

The cardiopulmonary effects of clenbuterol when administered to dorsally recumbent halothane-anaesthetised ponies--failure to increase arterial oxygenation.

Lee YH, Clarke KW, Alibhai HI.

Department of Farm Animal and Equine Medicine and Surgery, Royal Veterinary College, Hatfield, Hertford.

Clenbuterol (0.8 microg kg(-1) intravenously) was investigated in ponies (small horses Ponies are small horses? Go figure) anaesthetised with acepromazine, detomidine and thiopentone, then halothane in oxygen alone (hyperoxic group) or with nitrous oxide (hypoxic group). Following instrumentation, ponies were placed in dorsal recumbency for 60 minutes, clenbuterol (both groups) or a saline control (hyperoxic group) given, and cardiopulmonary parameters monitored for a further 60 minutes. In the hyperoxic group, clenbuterol administration resulted in a transitory (<five minutes) 15 per cent fall in arterial blood pressure and 78 per cent rise in intramuscular blood flow. Heart rate increased from a mean of 42 (SD 4) to 54 (12) beats per minute, the rise being significant for 15 minutes. Cardiac index increased from 2.1 (0.7) to 3.9 (0.7) litres m(-2) and remained significantly elevated for the remainder of the measurement period. Cardiovascular changes in the hypoxic group were similar. 30 minutes after clenbuterol administration, PaO2 had changed nonsignificantly from 32.3 (19.2) to 33.4 (17) kPa in the hyperoxic group and from 7.9 (1.8) to 8.6 (1.3) kPa in the hypoxic group. The study concludes that under these experimental conditions, clenbuterol does not cause significant improvement in arterial oxygenation, but its cardiovascular effects are minimal or advantageous.

Publication Types:
Clinical trial

PMID: 9915148 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
I'd say that was pretty conclusive......

Did you know that the inhaler asthma drug salbutamol (don't think this is the generic name in the states) is related to clenbuterol? Did you know that at the last Olympics more than 40% of the athletes had scripts said drug due to their 'exercise induced asthma' (or just plain old asthma)?

Now who'd have thought that so many asthma sufferers could be so damn healthy!!! :rolleyes:
 
Julez said:
Big Johnson

Do you know if clen has any adverse affect on blood pressure. Also if there was left ventricular hypertrophy I take it that under any stress heart rate went up beyond the normal gradient (due to reduced stroke volume?, I am not sure).

Anyway, very informative!
Click to expand...

I haven't run across it yet, but I'll post if I do. As to the hypertrophy, increased heart mass usually results in LESS efficient heart output. Heart disease is characterized by enlargening of cardiac tissue. That's why some caution with clen may be a good idea.
 
Nathan said:
I was going to ask if the heart enlargening effects were shown to be permanent or not, but you hit on that in a later post Big J. Long term studies would definitely be useful. None of those studies mentioned what happened to the rats' hearts once clambutteroil administration was ceased, eh?
I didn't realize we had such simialr physiologies to rats. Does this mean it's not so weird to rape and molest the little buggers?
Click to expand...

LOL

I guess that's okay, but eating them is even worse now. Sorta like cannibalism :)
 
ARGHHHHHHh!!!!!!!


All of you studies are uselss crap!!! We all know that clenbuterol is ANABOLIC in animals!!! However it's not anabolic in humans at all due to physiological differences!!!!!!

I'm sorry, yes rats may be a suitable model for many drugs, but in the case of clenbuterol they're useless!!!!!! Ponies are the same, find a study involving humans, (which you wont') and then maybe someone will agree with what you're saying.

I'm so tired of this crap, stop running around like a chicken with it's head cut off looking for answers, do some research.

Big Johnston i commend you for your effort but you missed that one small fact. Rats, cats, dogs and horses have different receptors than humans, unfortunelty in the case of clenbuterol this difference is extremely apparent.
 
don't have the intention to come inbetween this, BUT

where Clen is concerned, i think it is unwise to compare rats and humans.

Since "The beta(2)-adrenergic agonist, clenbuterol" allows animals to build muscle tissue, while this is impossible for us humans to do the same.


Peace to all off you
 
Another thing, E2. Before you say these studies are "useless crap," ask yourself why the researchers performed them in the first place.

Why are they posted on a human medical database and not a veterinary database? And, what studies have you seen that show that rats and humans are not analagous with respect to clenbuterol treatment?

You have made some pretty strong claims, claims that thousands of medical professionals would probably disagree with. Please, show your evidence that suggests these studies are useless crap and do the medical research establishment a favor. :)
 
None of those studies were useless. All are valid for hypothesis to be made.

Unfortuately it is agianst the law for humans to be experimented on in the same manner.......

but...

.........don't we know a fuck load about rats?
 
I haven't been able to find one study on humans, but I'm sure all of you have heard or read from various sources that clenbuterol does have similar effects on humans. For those of you who disagree, I have NO opinion on the matter whatsoever. I would however like to see your material. Can you post it? Thanks.

From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7476054&dopt=Abstract

Clenbuterol: a substitute for anabolic steroids?

Prather ID, Brown DE, North P, Wilson JR.

Department of Family Medicine, University of North Texas Health Science Center at Forth Worth 76107; USA.

Clenbuterol is a recently popular drug used by athletes in many sports for its purported anabolic effects and reduction of subcutaneous fat. It is a beta-2 (beta 2) agonist prescribed overseas as a bronchodilator, but not approved for use in this country. It is on the banned substance list of the United States Olympic Committee. To avoid any erosion of confidence, physicians caring for athletes need accurate information regarding clenbuterol. Such information is unavailable within the routine medical environs. A review of the literature of animal husbandry reveals that this drug, when administered in doses far greater than those required for bronchodilation, does indeed increase the deposition rate of lean mass and retard adipose gain. There are no human studies available. Animal studies were conducted on laboratory and slaughter stock. No investigation into long-term cardiovascular side effects has been undertaken. The rate of extrapolation from animal studies to unsupervised human usage is alarming. If this category of drugs does preserve lean mass in humans, there are legitimate medical applications. Trials of efficacy and safety are needed.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, tutorial

PMID: 7476054 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Well, great read
And BigJ, I don't delete anything if its presented
in a factual way. You presented it quite well.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Yesterday, the discussion was all rumour and
hearsay, no facts.
BUT, I think you'll have problems coming up
with a study done on humans.
Trust me, when I first started Clen I went
through EVERY SINGLE paper on Medline.
We're talking TENS OF THOUSANDS
here. Not one was on humans.

If you do find one though, post it as it'll
be a good discussion.

Godspeed
 
No Rocket Boy,

Why don't you post a study supporting your claims that MOD is a moron? :)

By the way, how long did it take you to go through those tens of thousands of abstracts? Are you a speed reader, too?

Let's see, 10,000 abstracts at one per minute would be seven days of reading non-stop. Damn, you're good.

Godspeed
 
MOD is a kind, smart - but opinionated - bloke. Fonz is smart too, but a bit to quick to attack. To me this is not a problem. I often choose who and what advice to listen to.

And hasn't this bitchy shit stopped yet? Jeeez!

Chill. Get along.:fro:
 
Hey Big J. Here's what I'ma gonna do. I'll buy me some nice fat rats and explore (quite thoroughly rest assured) every orifice on their little bodies and I'll let you all know what I cum up with.:D If all goes as planned, it should satisfy all doubts expressed on this thread (not sure how but trust me it will) and make me on happy camper. Wish me luck!
 
Nathan said:
Hey Big J. Here's what I'ma gonna do. I'll buy me some nice fat rats and explore (quite thoroughly rest assured) every orifice on their little bodies and I'll let you all know what I cum up with.:D If all goes as planned, it should satisfy all doubts expressed on this thread (not sure how but trust me it will) and make me on happy camper. Wish me luck!
Click to expand...

When you say 'cum up' with? what do you mean... (yikes)
 
Fonz said:
Well, great read
And BigJ, I don't delete anything if its presented
in a factual way. You presented it quite well.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Yesterday, the discussion was all rumour and
hearsay, no facts.
BUT, I think you'll have problems coming up
with a study done on humans.
Trust me, when I first started Clen I went
through EVERY SINGLE paper on Medline.
We're talking TENS OF THOUSANDS
here. Not one was on humans.

If you do find one though, post it as it'll
be a good discussion.

Godspeed
Click to expand...


two things..looks like you owe me an apology which i wont hold my breath for and second i think you should ask to be removed from being a MOD
 
Fonz said:
Well, great read
And BigJ, I don't delete anything if its presented
in a factual way. You presented it quite well.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Yesterday, the discussion was all rumour and
hearsay, no facts.
BUT, I think you'll have problems coming up
with a study done on humans.
Trust me, when I first started Clen I went
through EVERY SINGLE paper on Medline.
We're talking TENS OF THOUSANDS
here. Not one was on humans.

If you do find one though, post it as it'll
be a good discussion.

Godspeed
Click to expand...

Do the MODS check whether every single post has a FACTUAL basis? How do they do that???

And all reporting of research is hearsay - so that means that some of the most valuable posts have to be deleted because they do not meet Fonz's criteria. That just does not seem right.
 
sorry vtat but until you get yourself some gold little stars next to your name i cant believe a word you say:D
 
Fonz said:
Well, great read
And BigJ, I don't delete anything if its presented
in a factual way. You presented it quite well.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Yesterday, the discussion was all rumour and
hearsay, no facts.
BUT, I think you'll have problems coming up
with a study done on humans.
Trust me, when I first started Clen I went
through EVERY SINGLE paper on Medline.
We're talking TENS OF THOUSANDS
here. Not one was on humans.

If you do find one though, post it as it'll
be a good discussion.

Godspeed
Click to expand...





............................................


chesty
Moderator


Registered: May 1999
Location:
Posts: 5382
I can say from personal experience that clen does affect your heart rate, blood pressure and can give a whopper of a headache and also, it can cause muscle cramping at the tolerance level and tremors up the butt, along with anxiety, restlessness and so on. This is all from personal experience from using it. I love the shit though it is great on a cutting cycle, but not a good one for a newbie.


__________________
I am required to kill, so I kill. That is enough.


Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

25-Jul-2001 11:12 PM
 
Nathan said:
Hey Big J. Here's what I'ma gonna do. I'll buy me some nice fat rats and explore (quite thoroughly rest assured) every orifice on their little bodies and I'll let you all know what I cum up with.:D If all goes as planned, it should satisfy all doubts expressed on this thread (not sure how but trust me it will) and make me on happy camper. Wish me luck!
Click to expand...

LMAO!
 
M.O.D said:






............................................


chesty
Moderator


Registered: May 1999
Location:
Posts: 5382
I can say from personal experience that clen does affect your heart rate, blood pressure and can give a whopper of a headache and also, it can cause muscle cramping at the tolerance level and tremors up the butt, along with anxiety, restlessness and so on. This is all from personal experience from using it. I love the shit though it is great on a cutting cycle, but not a good one for a newbie.


__________________
I am required to kill, so I kill. That is enough.


Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

25-Jul-2001 11:12 PM
Click to expand...


MOD , you're a very tenacious individual, I'll grant you that.
BUT, again you're confusing UN-SUBSTANCIATED DATA
with facts.

Were there ANY measurements taken of Heart enzymes? No.
Were there ANY ECG sans to determine heart atrophy? No.
Was the situation controlled? No.
Was Chesty isolated from any other Med use? No.

I'm sorry MOD, but I have to disagree your post because its
baseless.
Chesty was just making SUPERFICIAL observations.
Ever heard of the placebo effect? Even
Chesty himself could have "thought" himself to
getting his BP high.

Plus, what exactly is wrong with Chesty's heart???

You CANNOT answer this question because
you don't have the necessary data.

I don't mean to be mean, but if you ever gave a professor
this "post" as proof that Clen is "bad" for humans,
he'd tell you to go hit the pub for a few pints and
think about it again.

And I think even Chesty would agree that his observations
should not be taken as scientific evidence.

Godspeed
 
ok fonz i give up u win brother.....im tiired bashing heads ..my point was to make people think about using drugs like clen, dnp and the other crap...if i did ..great...if not..at least i tried....also my suggestion to you is to cool it on giving out medical advise...telling a guy with a high GTP level he doesnt need to see a doctor and telling him what to take is dead wrong....


peace
 
M.O.D said:
ok fonz i give up u win brother.....im tiired bashing heads ..my point was to make people think about using drugs like clen, dnp and the other crap...if i did ..great...if not..at least i tried....also my suggestion to you is to cool it on giving out medical advise...telling a guy with a high GTP level he doesnt need to see a doctor and telling him what to take is dead wrong....


peace
Click to expand...


Thank god you two have made up, I was really growing tired of all that. :)
 
It seems that all of the bickering has distracted us from the substantive aspects of this thread.

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse here, but IMO it is a bit short sighted to claim that there are no "human studies" to confirm the potential dangers of clen and infer that therefore it is impossible that clen could be harmful.

Whether or not humans and rats have identical makeups, if clen harms rats I say that is a reason to have some level of concern. I certainly am not convinced that the studies done on rats should be ignored. And to claim that clen doesn't raise BP or heart rate is to disregard what all of our bodies have been telling us. Can anyone truthfully say that clen has absolutely no effect on his BP or heart rate?

Remember, there have been plenty of drugs approved for use by the FDA (especially dieting drugs like phen-fen) that have turned out to be very harmful to humans. The FDA has denied clen's approval for use (I know that it supposedly had to do with its long half life), but when somebody like MOD posts all kinds of emperical data showing clen "could" be harmful, and people keep insisting that he hasn't proved it with "studies", I conclude that people often believe what they want to believe.

I'm not saying clen is extremely dangerous, but what I am saying is that you don't necessarily need "studies" that would satisfy some people in order to draw any conclusions.
 
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