Gaining muscle on a low-protein diet?? With and without AAS?

[aquatic_glories]

This just struck to my mind while I was reading Ellington Darden's book yesterday. It was about HIT but of course it had diet advices.

He was saying that 300 grams of protein intake is high . He actually never advocates over RDA (which is like 0.3-0.4 per pound) and when all of his clients are getting only about 10-15% protein in their diets , the always see a good growth.

He clains that calories and water are more important than protein about it. That s why he has some strange over-hydration techniques.

Protein is what builds the muscle yes. But is it the only thing it relies as a main block of building?? I mean we have a reasearch showing that muscle is built without testicles,, body is a crazily smart machine,, isnt there any pathway to accomplish protein synthesis??

We have studies showing protein synthesis increase with carb-only drink or showing with leucine-only,,, which might bring us to the fact that protein is everything.
Althogh I dont agree with every of his ideas, Darden knows his shit.. That s why I opened a discussion.

In the place I live people may lose up to 90 pounds in military training in months due to retarded nutrition. But what if they pigged out and ate everything they saw??


Now related to AAS, yes it sounds more retarded to diet low-protein on AAS, but, has anyone tried it ?? Considering that you had enough calories, what results did you get from AAS usage??

I believe Ramadan is making me strange already lol


Last thing: I also use very-high protein diets so I am not the one to be spammed

 

[ConanX]

Look at some guys in prisons. They do not get the protein like we have or the supplements/AAS, yet some of those dudes are huge.

I personally eat between 350-400 grams of protein every day though.

 

[aquatic_glories]

Well there are lots of guys in prison with really good genetics but your point is also a good one.

I also see guys that eat crap but can carry high mass in some gyms I have gone.
I sometimes think the protein things is exaggerated especially due to supplement companies. Sure it brings a good benefits ; I would like to see Nelson's opinion on this.

The body s adaptation mechanism should be much complex than a protein-intake..

 

[bowly]

what is synthesized shows on the body..for some it does naturally(genetics) and for some you need additional help(aas)..eventually the body that depends on aas heavily for protein synthesis lose some or most of their gains once they are off it..due to the complex way of life we have changed the equation of chemicals in the body..remember the natives of planet earth use to hunt for animals and eat them raw..they had enough acids to synthesize the protein and no doubt they all were blood group o..blood group also determines how you breakdown protein effectively..

 

[Nelson Montana]

Dardin likes to play with hypotheticals. Sure, muscle is more than protein. It's water and it's also glucose. So you can say carbs "build muscle." But that's just volume.

Actual muscle tissue is protein, pure and simple. Is 300-400 grams a day necessary? Probably not. You can grow with steroids on 100 grams a day, just not as well.

 

[niightz]

+1

 

[2DIEZEL]

Look at some guys in prisons. They do not get the protein like we have or the supplements/AAS, yet some of those dudes are huge.

I personally eat between 350-400 grams of protein every day though.

Thats becasue they rest...recovery is key. In prison they really dont do to much phisical activity and sit around most the day.

 

[niightz]

They also trade cigs for food, supplements, or whatever else they can sneak in there. Or if they are big enough they let their cell mate live for a cookie.

 

[aquatic_glories]

what is synthesized shows on the body..for some it does naturally(genetics) and for some you need additional help(aas)..eventually the body that depends on aas heavily for protein synthesis lose some or most of their gains once they are off it..due to the complex way of life we have changed the equation of chemicals in the body..remember the natives of planet earth use to hunt for animals and eat them raw..they had enough acids to synthesize the protein and no doubt they all were blood group o..blood group also determines how you breakdown protein effectively..

This is the first time I hear this. If you have any other info to share, I would be glad to read

 

[aquatic_glories]

Dardin likes to play with hypotheticals. Sure, muscle is more than protein. It's water and it's also glucose. So you can say carbs "build muscle." But that's just volume.

Actual muscle tissue is protein, pure and simple. Is 300-400 grams a day necessary? Probably not. You can grow with steroids on 100 grams a day, just not as well.

Thanks bro.

He also said in his book that most of his clients train this way. I mean with low protein, they grow on HIT training..

So with 100 grams a day, you can grow without steroids ,too right?? Because 100 gr a day natural is maybe like 140-150 a day while juicing because of the increased ability to protein synthesis?

So can we say that the biggest reason people lose mass while lowering protein intake a lot is the catabolism that happens in the first weeks; then the body gets used to it.
If we grow on 100 gr a day, but use 400 at the moment; and lower it back to 100 gr a day even if we increase calories, there will be a huge lost right??

 

[vashx]

I have kidney disease so my doctor put me on a limit of 75grams of protein a day.
im 6'1" and 200lbs.
Im still increasing muscle mass due to the drastic diet change and improving my bench.

I eat plently of complex carbs and raw foods.
I cut out preservatives and any other impure foods from my diet.

I may not be gaining muscle mass super fast, but Im still getting bigger and bigger and people have noticed.


if anyone has more information on lowered protein body building I would like to know more.

 

[aquatic_glories]

I have kidney disease so my doctor put me on a limit of 75grams of protein a day.
im 6'1" and 200lbs.
Im still increasing muscle mass due to the drastic diet change and improving my bench.

I eat plently of complex carbs and raw foods.
I cut out preservatives and any other impure foods from my diet.

I may not be gaining muscle mass super fast, but Im still getting bigger and bigger and people have noticed.


if anyone has more information on lowered protein body building I would like to know more.

that s great to hear. It is also supporting my hypothesis. Can you give a little info about your diet?

I wonder if you saw huge muscle loss when you suddenly decreased your protein intake a lot?

thanks

 

[vashx]

Ive been on the diet for about 2 1/2 weeks now So I dont have much numbers to confirm, but ive been adding more weight all round to my workout routines in the past two weeks, but still need more time to confirm growth.
Theres no def loss in muscle mass, and it seems easier to become "lean"

In the mornings I try to consume complex carbs ( i try for an organic diet ), so cereals like flax bran and whatnot are a good energy boost for the morning.
Throughout the day I try to just consume veggies and fruits, I have a vegetable quesadilla recipe with light cheese that is very filling and gives loads of energy.
Based on brown rice cooked in thickened tomatoe sauce, spinach, mushrooms, corn, red peppers, and coconut oil - which helps boost metabolism. I make large batches and eat alot of these. On days that im good on protein, ill throw a bit of pork rib meat or chicken breast with this recipe, tastes amazing lol...
And if im hungry for a snack ill just fry up a big portabella mushroom.
Mushrooms are suppose to help with kidney function, which i advise all body builders to eat... because body building is tough on your kidneys alone lol.

When Im aloud to eat my "one meat" a day, i try to save it for after a workout or the evenings, so I have that protein in my system closer to a sleeping hour.
I do eat plenty of spinach, mushrooms, and garlic which are high in protein for vegetables, I also consume small amounts of raw unpasturized milk. Helps with digestion and its a better protein.

I also try to eat a small amount of fruit or get fructose in my system before I go to bed. I heard its suppose to help jump start the muscle growth hormone in your brain, which helps aid muscle building during REM sleep.

To be honest it seems like just pushing for muscle failure and doing correct workouts makes the most difference in the world, sure more proteins helps, but its not totally necessary.. But with my condition I definitely have to watch what I eat.

I use ascendo fitness on my blackberry to keep track of my protein limit and workouts. helps out alot.
its a great application for my phone and syncs with my computer.

I aim to be 210lbs by my 21st birthday, which is dec31, so i got about 4 months... lol

if you guys have any diet tips or workout routine tips for someone with my condition I would be glad to hear it.
Its a drastic life style change these past 8 months, and Im going to continue body building till the day i die! lol

 

[Ezekiel]

what is synthesized shows on the body..for some it does naturally(genetics) and for some you need additional help(aas)..eventually the body that depends on aas heavily for protein synthesis lose some or most of their gains once they are off it..due to the complex way of life we have changed the equation of chemicals in the body..remember the natives of planet earth use to hunt for animals and eat them raw..they had enough acids to synthesize the protein and no doubt they all were blood group o..blood group also determines how you breakdown protein effectively..

Not sure if they ate their food raw, however I am Type O and have both my wife and I have followed a bloodtype diet for over 5 years.

Remember, we haven't been eating and living this way for all that long really!

 

[vashx]

Hmm never heard of the blood type O thing before.
I do have a natural large german build, as well as my brothers do, so I guess genetics are also helping me build muscle. As people in my family do get built easy.

 

[the.gladiator1987]

i think there isnt a magic number. if what you eat is making you grow then you are doing good. You are getting enough protein. If you wanted to bump it up and see if you got more gains you could. if you werent getting gains then you werent eating enough.

 

[aquatic_glories]

vashx, thanks for your input and I am waiting for the results

gladiator, what you mean isnt the exact purpose of this thread. It is the arguement of whether gaining mass on low-protein diets are possible or not?? I believe it is possible but I also believe you will hit a plateau much much quicker this way..

 

[the.gladiator1987]

vashx, thanks for your input and I am waiting for the results

gladiator, what you mean isnt the exact purpose of this thread. It is the arguement of whether gaining mass on low-protein diets are possible or not?? I believe it is possible but I also believe you will hit a plateau much much quicker this way..

Oh yea sorry im just so used to point out that you dont need 300+g of protein to grow lol.

I think you would plateau faster because you would have more muscle than the amount of protein i takes to keep it, ya know? So when that happens you could add more protein. Like 50g and you would continue to get gains.

It is possible. Not everyone wants to be a bodybuilder.

 

[aquatic_glories]

Oh yea sorry im just so used to point out that you dont need 300+g of protein to grow lol.

I think you would plateau faster because you would have more muscle than the amount of protein i takes to keep it, ya know? So when that happens you could add more protein. Like 50g and you would continue to get gains.

It is possible. Not everyone wants to be a bodybuilder.

Yes, I agree with that. This just came to my mind because Ramadan started and I will go to military within short time,, there are giving very bullshits foods over there and after I read Ellington Dardin s book, this came to my mind.

Actually you know what, there are researches saying that athletes need less protein than sedentary males. Look up for protein debates between John Berardi and Stuart if I recall correctly

 

[the.gladiator1987]

Oh dude i was in boot camp for the marines for about a month, i was a squad leader and all. You eat a lot. More than what you would think, and its only the first 8 weeks out of 12 that you have to eat 3x a day and you get like 5 minutes to chow down the food. Last month you get an hour or somethin to eat and its laid back and you can eat all the protein you want! I actually didnt lose much weight but for some legal reasons i got kicked out went to jail and came back with pneumonia and lost like 10-15lbs lol

 

[aquatic_glories]

Unfortunately I will go to military in a different country and it all depends on the person that commands you . If you get lucky and go to good place, I dont think it is gonna create a lotta problem for us but I know a friend that went there and lost 70 pounds in 6 months!!!

They also give you food 3 times a day in here but if you call it food lol


how was the diet and traiing in jail ? this might go well with the topic

 

[the.gladiator1987]

Unfortunately I will go to military in a different country and it all depends on the person that commands you . If you get lucky and go to good place, I dont think it is gonna create a lotta problem for us but I know a friend that went there and lost 70 pounds in 6 months!!!

They also give you food 3 times a day in here but if you call it food lol


how was the diet and traiing in jail ? this might go well with the topic

mop heavy lifting but after every meal you had to do as many pullups as you could 3x in a row. I could only do 12 at the time so that was a good mass building upper body exercise. I was also getting in great shape. After a month i didnt know how much i weighed but i remember flexing in the mirror and thingking damn im big, so i know i didnt get smaller! maybe my legs did though haha but i didnt squat back then anyway

diet was 3 big meals a day. when i got kicked out for the last week and a half i got to eat as much as i wanted lol.

 

[aquatic_glories]

mop heavy lifting but after every meal you had to do as many pullups as you could 3x in a row. I could only do 12 at the time so that was a good mass building upper body exercise. I was also getting in great shape. After a month i didnt know how much i weighed but i remember flexing in the mirror and thingking damn im big, so i know i didnt get smaller! maybe my legs did though haha but i didnt squat back then anyway

diet was 3 big meals a day. when i got kicked out for the last week and a half i got to eat as much as i wanted lol.

I can also protect my back size easily with pullups since I weight 200 at worst, however my forearms and arms are my worst bodyparts and they shrink so fast.
I train my forearms and speciliaze on them for a month , then I lose all the size in a week if I dont train them lol

 

[vashx]

So yeah i have good news and bad news.

I recently got sick from my kidney medicatio , caused an intestinal infection, which caused super severe diarehea, like the kind that puts you in a hospital and you almost die from.

Well anyway, I lost 7 lbs in 5 days, then over the course of 2 weeks, i lost 12lbs total. Of muscle..... lol
So now I look smaller but toned, goddamn it.

So Im sorta hoping for memory muscle to bounce me back.

But what the good news was is before i got sick, even with my low protein diet, I increased my bench 20lbs per throughout my sets, put on like 3-4 pounds, so I was at 205lbish in my weight, from 198-200. .
I noticed that my biceps were alot bigger after the increase in able to do weight, and the top of my chest was alot bigger.

Hopefully I can still make my dec31 210lb goal...

anyone have any suggestions? and remember Im on a protein limit for my kidneys, but if you have non-protein related suggestions please do tell. lol

more good news is the doctor will not put me back on that nasty medication.. lol

 

[the.gladiator1987]

non protein related suggestion? take a cycle, or one of Needtos products. If you really wanna put on size fast hahaha

 

[REFORMATA]

Dude.....no cycles for him.....!

 

[aquatic_glories]

I also lost shitload of muscle this Ramadan ,, but I will hopefully get all back within 11 days and then big cycle baby!!

I love the excitement that comes before every cycle,, it still goes on at the first for weeks but then starts diminishing , at least for me