NorCalBdyBldr
New member
Atlantabiolab said:
Whatever! You are entitled to your fantasy! The law has not been invoked for a hundred years. So obviously nobody considered it a problem or was revisionist about it at all until the Republicans saw a way to abuse and exploit a poorly worded hundred year old law so they could make a power grab.
Atlantabiolab said:
I didn't say that Bush caused the downturn. I said the his actions are exacerbating rather than helping fix it. However, the election of Bush DID help cause many people to start pulling money out which did not help before he was even inaugerated. From people that I know that pulled out, myself included, I expected things to turn down because I expected his spending policies to be recessionary in nature (economics 101-guns versus butter argument and impact on production possibility frontier curve) which they are and I expected his spending to be, as you say, socialist in nature because they would be completely out of control just like his father's were and Ronald Reagan's were. Anc by the way, I am largely driven towards the democrats for the very reason that the Republicans have abondoned the traditional values of fiscal responsibility and have adopted and modus operandi of fiscal irresponsibility over the last twenty years whereas the "tax and spend democrats" used to operate this way and ever since Jimmy Carter, reversed themselves and now seem to be more fiscally responsible. As Alan Greenspan stated, this continuing trend of increasing debt and yearly huge deficits will only make interest rates increase over time. This is inherently bad for the economy, both private and public sector, and is ultimately a self defeating strategy for the country as a whole. But like ideologue, Grover Nordquist (one of the Republican's top strategists) stated, the whole purpose of the Bush tax refund and huge Bush deficits is to bankrupt the federal government and force the end of the hated social programs (i.e. social security for one which by republican definitions is socialism). Unfortunately, this is cutting off the head to get rid of some warts and while it will ultimately succeed in getting rid of what they don't want, will also kill the patient as well. I have a very tough time dealing with the neo-con ideolgues that have hijacked the Republican party so I have no choice but to vote against them. And what good does it do to bankrupt a program through increased indebtedness when all you are doing is taking away benefits but not reducing taxes because you have exchanged benefits for transfer payments to pay the interest/principal on the additional debt?
Atlantabiolab said:
I did not say that Clinton cause the boom either. What I said is that he created favorable conditions that favored it. 9/11 would have hurt any economy regardless of who was president. However, as most top economists have stated including Alan Greenspan is that we are far beyond anything that could be attributed to the impact of 9/11 in terms of how much it impacted the economy in terms of severity and duration.
Atlantabiolab said:
I don't blame him or any other single person or any particular country or any specific group of countries for the ills of the world. However, I do blame him for fiscal irresponsibility and not doing appropriate actions to mitigate the recession. He is the only president since the great depression that has had negative job growth every month of his tenure which is hardly a record of success and his policies have only exacerbated things. The situation is still not improving after nearly three years of office nor are his policies.
Atlantabiolab said:
The illegal immigration of Mexicans in particular is of great concern. California, under former governor Pete Wilson (Republican) tried to address part of this issue by passing a law that prohibited anyone that is not legally in the U.S. from drawing benefits from California's social services and other programs. Unfortunately, the Federal Courts struck down this law stating that this was infringing on the Federal domain regarding immigration policy. Because of this rediculous ruling coupled with the fact that both major parties pander to the hispanic vote and therefore ignore enforcing immigration law in any meaningful way, the citizens and businesses are now forced into paying absurdly for benefits for people that are not only non residents of California in the legal sense but also not even in this state or country legally. This is insane and needs to be addressed as the illegals only contribute about 3% of the productivity to this state but are BY FAR the biggest drain on it.
Your insinuation that the decrease in millionaires in California has to do with out migration is misleading. The decrease in millionaires has everything to do with the collapse of the dot.com industry AND the decrease in the stock market. This is also the reason why the decrease in tax revenues from millionaires. As you noted it happened during 2000-2001 which corresponds to the collapse of the stock values as well.
Atlantabiolab said:
Contrary to your ascertions, the tax structure here favors people and businesses that own property which certainly makes it more regressive on people that don't. There is no doubt that the tax structure needs a major overhaul. The current governor talked about it but got no interest in legislative republicans because many of the problems with the tax structure here would hit particular pork barrel tax perks to specific special interests that were given over the last ten years. So that unfortunately is not likely to change soon. Interestingly, California's tax structure ends up tying it in to the stock market values by the nature of how taxes are collected here. Tax revenues from income taxes amazingly do not account for the major amount of taxes collected in this state due to several ballot measures in the recent past. Also property taxes because of a past ballot measure are relatively low compared certainly to all the northeastern states and quite a few others because they were rolled back and locked in based on price when the property was purchased and can not be increased significantly in any year. As for why anyone would want to start a business here are many inspite of the negativity you focus on. One is location on the Pacific Rim and ports of entry. Colorado and Nevada do not have coastlines. Also, California is still overall the wealthiest state in the nation. Therefore there is a ready market for people that actually have money to pay for things. There are many other reasons as well such as many companies locate here because of all the advantages of being here and that means they can attract the right kind of talent not to mention that there is an abundance of creative talent in this state that contributes to the potential pool. There are lots of other reasons that overcome the poor taxing structure and other negatives. Like anywhere else, you have to weigh the pros and cons considering your specific business and what type of markets you sell too and what kind of employees you need to attract. Also consider that the high end talent is simply not going to move to places like Oklahoma or Nebraska for the most part, no matter how cheap it is to live or buy a house because they simply do not have the culture or amenities there that they have here. It is interesting to note that New York City is another very high cost area and is also a high pay location as well as a location that attracts high talent. So draconian taxation is only a part of the consideration. Some businesses simply could not exist without the right availability of the type of employees that they require.
Atlantabiolab said:
Yeah, all things are somewhat relative. I spent quite a few years living in the low pay, low cost south where you could buy a house for cheap and see little appreciation, etc. The truth is that I found out from personal experience that I was MUCH better off coming back to the expensive west coast and making more than twice as much for the same work. So I can afford to pay a bit more for gasoline as I don't spend that much on it a month anyway. Also with the climate that we have, I don't spend as nearly as much on energy costs for heating/cooling as I did in the south even though they had much cheaper per unit costs for energy and I had to pay those higher bills with a lower pay. So you keep enjoying your third world existence.
Atlantabiolab said:
Actually your ignorance of market economics is what is laughable. When the current situation is 4 buyers per available house, the seller or builder can charge as much as the market will bear which is obviously considerable. Even if no such environmental laws existed, the market would dictate price and they would charge the same because they can easily get it. Got it?
Atlantabiolab said:
Considering the fact that the same model house with no improvements made since it was built sold just up the street two weeks ago after being on the market for about three weeks for $100,000 more than what I paid for mine when it was built supports completely my estimation of what it is worth. Like you said, it is what it sells for that counts and that is the current value. This is inspite of a weak economy. I never said the economy was strong here at this point in time. Also I haven't noticed any illegals buying houses in my neighborhood either. They don't make $200,000 per year either, even if you put ten of them together. And the fact that your house sits in a third world economy means that it appreciates slower and therefore you fall relatively behind in the scheme of things. Why do you think that so many Californians can sell their homes when they retire and retire very well off in practically any other state? You'll likely have to retire in an even poorer state when you retire than you are located in now like Louisiana or Mississippi. Enjoy the humid hot weather.
You must be joking!?! You are a novelty in your state, for strict constructionism does not exist in California. Your officials wrote the book on revisionism of law.
Whatever! You are entitled to your fantasy! The law has not been invoked for a hundred years. So obviously nobody considered it a problem or was revisionist about it at all until the Republicans saw a way to abuse and exploit a poorly worded hundred year old law so they could make a power grab.
Atlantabiolab said:
Did Greenspan state that Bush's actions CAUSED the recession, as you imply, or simply that he disagrees with their usefullness at correcting a recession? Big difference.
I didn't say that Bush caused the downturn. I said the his actions are exacerbating rather than helping fix it. However, the election of Bush DID help cause many people to start pulling money out which did not help before he was even inaugerated. From people that I know that pulled out, myself included, I expected things to turn down because I expected his spending policies to be recessionary in nature (economics 101-guns versus butter argument and impact on production possibility frontier curve) which they are and I expected his spending to be, as you say, socialist in nature because they would be completely out of control just like his father's were and Ronald Reagan's were. Anc by the way, I am largely driven towards the democrats for the very reason that the Republicans have abondoned the traditional values of fiscal responsibility and have adopted and modus operandi of fiscal irresponsibility over the last twenty years whereas the "tax and spend democrats" used to operate this way and ever since Jimmy Carter, reversed themselves and now seem to be more fiscally responsible. As Alan Greenspan stated, this continuing trend of increasing debt and yearly huge deficits will only make interest rates increase over time. This is inherently bad for the economy, both private and public sector, and is ultimately a self defeating strategy for the country as a whole. But like ideologue, Grover Nordquist (one of the Republican's top strategists) stated, the whole purpose of the Bush tax refund and huge Bush deficits is to bankrupt the federal government and force the end of the hated social programs (i.e. social security for one which by republican definitions is socialism). Unfortunately, this is cutting off the head to get rid of some warts and while it will ultimately succeed in getting rid of what they don't want, will also kill the patient as well. I have a very tough time dealing with the neo-con ideolgues that have hijacked the Republican party so I have no choice but to vote against them. And what good does it do to bankrupt a program through increased indebtedness when all you are doing is taking away benefits but not reducing taxes because you have exchanged benefits for transfer payments to pay the interest/principal on the additional debt?
Atlantabiolab said:
Also, what did Clinton do that caused the 90's economic boom?? Was he a part time computer genius creating the dot. com industry? If so, was he also the cause of the dot. com failure? Do you really believe that 9/11 would not have hurt the economy if Clinton was in office?
I did not say that Clinton cause the boom either. What I said is that he created favorable conditions that favored it. 9/11 would have hurt any economy regardless of who was president. However, as most top economists have stated including Alan Greenspan is that we are far beyond anything that could be attributed to the impact of 9/11 in terms of how much it impacted the economy in terms of severity and duration.
Atlantabiolab said:
I disagree vehemently with Bush's actions on the economy, for he is following a socialist mindset of spend without care, but that does not mean that I blame him for the economic downturn. Because I disagree with him does not mean that I blame him for all the ills of the world, as Democrats do.
I don't blame him or any other single person or any particular country or any specific group of countries for the ills of the world. However, I do blame him for fiscal irresponsibility and not doing appropriate actions to mitigate the recession. He is the only president since the great depression that has had negative job growth every month of his tenure which is hardly a record of success and his policies have only exacerbated things. The situation is still not improving after nearly three years of office nor are his policies.
Atlantabiolab said:
Key word: "traditionally". This is not the case today. California has lost over 1 million white non-hispanics between 2000-2001. The state's population increase is directly related to immigration of Hispanics, who I doubt are going to fill in the spaces of upper middle and high income rich individuals, who drive the economy. California's tax revenues from millionaires declined from 37% to 25% during 2000-2001, and individuals claiming millionaire status declined from 44,000 to 29,000 during this same time.
The illegal immigration of Mexicans in particular is of great concern. California, under former governor Pete Wilson (Republican) tried to address part of this issue by passing a law that prohibited anyone that is not legally in the U.S. from drawing benefits from California's social services and other programs. Unfortunately, the Federal Courts struck down this law stating that this was infringing on the Federal domain regarding immigration policy. Because of this rediculous ruling coupled with the fact that both major parties pander to the hispanic vote and therefore ignore enforcing immigration law in any meaningful way, the citizens and businesses are now forced into paying absurdly for benefits for people that are not only non residents of California in the legal sense but also not even in this state or country legally. This is insane and needs to be addressed as the illegals only contribute about 3% of the productivity to this state but are BY FAR the biggest drain on it.
Your insinuation that the decrease in millionaires in California has to do with out migration is misleading. The decrease in millionaires has everything to do with the collapse of the dot.com industry AND the decrease in the stock market. This is also the reason why the decrease in tax revenues from millionaires. As you noted it happened during 2000-2001 which corresponds to the collapse of the stock values as well.
Atlantabiolab said:
California is considered the worst state to start a business because of the Draconian tax structures and regulatory practices. Nevada and Colorado are catching the run-off of individuals and businesses who are escaping from California's "soak the rich" programs. Why would a person want to start a business in a state that hits you with high taxes and restrictive regulations, when nearby you can reap higher returns from lesser taxes?
Contrary to your ascertions, the tax structure here favors people and businesses that own property which certainly makes it more regressive on people that don't. There is no doubt that the tax structure needs a major overhaul. The current governor talked about it but got no interest in legislative republicans because many of the problems with the tax structure here would hit particular pork barrel tax perks to specific special interests that were given over the last ten years. So that unfortunately is not likely to change soon. Interestingly, California's tax structure ends up tying it in to the stock market values by the nature of how taxes are collected here. Tax revenues from income taxes amazingly do not account for the major amount of taxes collected in this state due to several ballot measures in the recent past. Also property taxes because of a past ballot measure are relatively low compared certainly to all the northeastern states and quite a few others because they were rolled back and locked in based on price when the property was purchased and can not be increased significantly in any year. As for why anyone would want to start a business here are many inspite of the negativity you focus on. One is location on the Pacific Rim and ports of entry. Colorado and Nevada do not have coastlines. Also, California is still overall the wealthiest state in the nation. Therefore there is a ready market for people that actually have money to pay for things. There are many other reasons as well such as many companies locate here because of all the advantages of being here and that means they can attract the right kind of talent not to mention that there is an abundance of creative talent in this state that contributes to the potential pool. There are lots of other reasons that overcome the poor taxing structure and other negatives. Like anywhere else, you have to weigh the pros and cons considering your specific business and what type of markets you sell too and what kind of employees you need to attract. Also consider that the high end talent is simply not going to move to places like Oklahoma or Nebraska for the most part, no matter how cheap it is to live or buy a house because they simply do not have the culture or amenities there that they have here. It is interesting to note that New York City is another very high cost area and is also a high pay location as well as a location that attracts high talent. So draconian taxation is only a part of the consideration. Some businesses simply could not exist without the right availability of the type of employees that they require.
Atlantabiolab said:
Funny how things change, huh? You have a nice time in the Socialist Republic of California, with high housing costs, high gas prices, high energy costs, high taxes, etc. I'll stay here in my little third world economy, where I can buy gas at the lowest price in the nation, buy a 4 bedroom house at a price that you couldn't find an apartment for, and continue speaking English.
Yeah, all things are somewhat relative. I spent quite a few years living in the low pay, low cost south where you could buy a house for cheap and see little appreciation, etc. The truth is that I found out from personal experience that I was MUCH better off coming back to the expensive west coast and making more than twice as much for the same work. So I can afford to pay a bit more for gasoline as I don't spend that much on it a month anyway. Also with the climate that we have, I don't spend as nearly as much on energy costs for heating/cooling as I did in the south even though they had much cheaper per unit costs for energy and I had to pay those higher bills with a lower pay. So you keep enjoying your third world existence.
Atlantabiolab said:
To say environmental laws in California have nothing to do with the housing prices is laughable. You could read articles for days showing how your environmental programs have increased costs for housing and energy, but you would still deny it and continue living in fantasyland.
Actually your ignorance of market economics is what is laughable. When the current situation is 4 buyers per available house, the seller or builder can charge as much as the market will bear which is obviously considerable. Even if no such environmental laws existed, the market would dictate price and they would charge the same because they can easily get it. Got it?
Atlantabiolab said:
Your house appreciating by $100,000, in one year, shows a problem. Who do you think can afford 3 bedroom houses that cost $3-400,000....illegals? Do all the workers of California make $200,000/year? Even the ridiculous living wage programs couldn't help people afford houses of this cost. The high appraisal of your house does not show a strong economy, the ability to sell it does.
Considering the fact that the same model house with no improvements made since it was built sold just up the street two weeks ago after being on the market for about three weeks for $100,000 more than what I paid for mine when it was built supports completely my estimation of what it is worth. Like you said, it is what it sells for that counts and that is the current value. This is inspite of a weak economy. I never said the economy was strong here at this point in time. Also I haven't noticed any illegals buying houses in my neighborhood either. They don't make $200,000 per year either, even if you put ten of them together. And the fact that your house sits in a third world economy means that it appreciates slower and therefore you fall relatively behind in the scheme of things. Why do you think that so many Californians can sell their homes when they retire and retire very well off in practically any other state? You'll likely have to retire in an even poorer state when you retire than you are located in now like Louisiana or Mississippi. Enjoy the humid hot weather.