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CNN has crossed the line into propaganda-machine

2Thick

Elite Mentor
Platinum
EF Logger
They are linking (nay claiming) Europe and most of the world is "Anti-American" and "America-haters" because they have a different opinion on geopolitics. Or better yet, CNN claims that envy of US power is the root.

That is so laughable. I guess the main ideal of democracy (which is majority rules) does not apply to the US.

Nobody wants to fight a war besides the US right-wing government. Am I the only one that sees this?
 
Right. Democracy doesn't apply to us. We are a Republic. And you are nuts if you think CNN is anything but left wing. And our gov't is not right wing. Dubya is just barely right of center.
 
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2Thick said:


Nobody wants to fight a war besides the US right-wing government. Am I the only one that sees this?

You probably are the only one who sees this...considering obviously the British and Spanish government want to ass rape Saddam as well.
 
Re: Re: CNN has crossed the line into propaganda-machine

The Almighty said:


You probably are the only one who sees this...considering obviously the British and Spanish government want to ass rape Saddam as well.

My bad, even though 80%+ of the people of Europe want to avoid a war, that makes the ass-licking governments of Britain and Spain a legitimate voice (considering that they are only going along so big-cash-daddy USA does not take away their "aid."
 
2-T ask yourself this, why does America want to over throw Saddam? Second you need to realize CNN is far left.
 
Re: Re: Re: CNN has crossed the line into propaganda-machine

2Thick said:


My bad, even though 80%+ of the people of Europe want to avoid a war, that makes the ass-licking governments of Britain and Spain a legitimate voice (considering that they are only going along so big-cash-daddy USA does not take away their "aid."

I love these stats "80% + of the people of Europe"

Did you conduct a phone poll?
 
Germany and France can go suck Saddam's cock. They will pay in the long run for going against the rest of the 1st world. Maybe we should send them copies of the Godfather so they can see how they are like Fredo. As for CNN- they are definately left wing. I stick with Fox news for the most part.

I sometimes wonder if 2Thick lives in a cabin in the woods building mail bombs and cursing the government. :D
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: CNN has crossed the line into propaganda-machine

ariolanine said:


I love these stats "80% + of the people of Europe"

Did you conduct a phone poll?

2-T is a master of conjecture. He hardly ever deals with fact.
 
70% anti war for UK last i heard

not sure spain



its not CNN's responsibility to be making such claims on TV. most of the rest of the world seems to be taking france's line. if they could actually FIND weapons they might get international support including in europe, but they can;t rpress gang peole into a war. conversly they need to move soon or they will get bad weather
 
I want to personally go kill N.Korea.

Yes i want to get into a ring with the actual country of N.Korea, and kick it to death or something.
 
CNN=Cable Nipple News!
CNN=Commie News Network!
CNN=Cunt Need News!
CNN=Cocks Never Needed!

I've said it once I'll say it again! Nuke the world and start over!
 
I'm all for wiping out Iraq. No problem there.

But I haven't been convinced we need to go bomb the shit out of him RIGHT NOW or something terrible will happen. The US government is pressing the hell out of everyone to support them... then scare the shit out of the American people by telling us we need to get prepared for a terrorist attack... as in THE ENTIRE COUNTRY needs to be prepared... how many times have we been attacked on our own soil? But conveniently, when America is doing everything possible to start the war, ALL Americans need to be prepared, because big bad Iraq and the 2 members still alive of the terrorist network just might be able to fuck us all up.

Sure... kill Hussein... fine. But don't do it at the expense of world-wide tension. That insignificant little fuck didn't attack us on Sept 11.

America needs to calm the fuck down. We sent too many troops over too fast, and now we don't want to have our bluff called, so we have to try to manipulate everyone into joining our cause... because what would the big bad US do if we sent all those troops over, and didn't attack?

This whole fuckin' thing is stupid to me.
 
BBV is right.

Also, CNN THRIVES on war...shit, the gulf war set a precedent for how wars are covered...now it's just like a video game so the american public are able to concentrate on their with-cheese on top AND inside the crust pizzas and free cinnamon rolls....

Left wing or right wing, what the mainstream media is NOT is a quality source of information....

Quick thought, 2 subjects most here are intimately familiar with, steroids and ephedra, both demonized by the mainstream media, both vastly incorrect... why is it that anything of substance is never seen on the mainstream media?

I say again, left or right wing, they are in bed with the govt. either way...fuck 'em...
 
Frackal said:
BBV is right.

Also, CNN THRIVES on war...shit, the gulf war set a precedent for how wars are covered...now it's just like a video game so the american public are able to concentrate on their with-cheese on top AND inside the crust pizzas and free cinnamon rolls....

Left wing or right wing, what the mainstream media is NOT is a quality source of information....

Quick thought, 2 subjects most here are intimately familiar with, steroids and ephedra, both demonized by the mainstream media, both vastly incorrect... why is it that anything of substance is never seen on the mainstream media?

I say again, left or right wing, they are in bed with the govt. either way...fuck 'em...



Very good point.

"Steroids kill everyone who takes them.... I saw it on the news."
 
By a Warrior. Not this Warrior, not that Warrior, an ULLLTIMATE W-A-R-R-I-O-R!!!! You know, the 280lb bufoon Wrestler turned Politician? Yeah, he should shake CNN like it's the ring ropes then criss cross back and fourth bouncing off the walls. Before he starts shaking his hand in the air and talking to it.
 
doesnt steroid use increase the risk of cancer?

and ephedra is a base precursor for methamphetamine which seems to be a big problem down there.
 
2Thick said:
Nobody wants to fight a war besides the US right-wing government. Am I the only one that sees this?

what about 16 member nations of nato? what about the other 20 (roughly) nations that are pledging their support to the US?
 
supernav said:
CNN is the most DANGEROUS organization on the planet. It can influence the nation to think whatever the hell they want to think. They control the media, washington and the public. They should be regulated.

-= nav =-

they arent controlling jack shit. their ratings are and have been in the toilet for months now. they are probably the lowest in ratings of any of the news channels.

plus, you are forgetting bush is in office, and he, unlike clinton, does not use polling data to dictate his foreign and domestic policy.
 
buddy28 said:
doesnt steroid use increase the risk of cancer?

and ephedra is a base precursor for methamphetamine which seems to be a big problem down there.


No steroid has ever been conclusively linked to cancer. Anadrol has some linkage to liver tumors, but likely due to excessive dosages.

Not sure what your point is here.
 
Well....

By the numbers.....

I'm not sure what to call CNN. Yellow journalism, sensationalists, alarmists, propagandists? Perspective in journalism seems to be a thing of the past.

Europe and most of the world are Anti-American. They are socialist in their mind-set....we (currently) are not. They can't do squat because they've agreed to hand power to the UN, which can't wipe it's own ass without a resolution. The USA is for having wealth, the world wants equalized misery.

The reasons the rest of the world doesn't want war with Iraq follow....

1. They actually want Saddam in power in that region.
2. They feel if it is time to go, the UN is the ONLY authority that should remove him (undermining the supreme military and political power of the USA--if we do it, they look bad).
3. Some European nations (France & Germany come to mind), have been making money selling WMD tech to Iraq when Saddam was prohibited from having any.

I don't necessarily support what Bush is doing, but let's face it....The wussies at the UN will never do anything about this problem UNTIL Saddam drops a nuke on the UN headquarters in NYC. Hrumph.... I don't doubt if he did that, the UN would forgive it saying it was an accident because he really wanted to hit Manhattan. :rolleyes:
 
2Thick said:
I guess the main ideal of democracy (which is majority rules) does not apply to the US.

Good - seeing as how the US is not a democracy and all.

-Warik
 
During the first Gulf War CNN was the shit as far as cable news stations. They lost a lot of credibility though because of their anti-american reporting and excessive criticism. Remember Peter Arnett? The were called the Communist News Network by some. Later the Clinton News Network.

Now CNN has competition from FOX, MSNBC and others, and is getting it's ass kicked in the ratings war. I think the owners are being careful not to emerge from this war with a bad rep like it did last time.
 
Re: Re: CNN has crossed the line into propaganda-machine

The Almighty said:


You probably are the only one who sees this...considering obviously the British and Spanish government want to ass rape Saddam as well.


80 % of british, our closest allies are against the war.

Only blair and his few henchmen support this war. The rest laugh blair off!!!
 
When wasn't CNN a propaganda machine?

Jesus Christ! I can't believe you are just now realizing this.
 
Frackal said:



No steroid has ever been conclusively linked to cancer. Anadrol has some linkage to liver tumors, but likely due to excessive dosages.

Not sure what your point is here.

I know excessive steroid application in laboratory animals *causes* malignant tumors.

Scientists have found sustained steroid application inhibits effective operation of thymus - the 'master gland of the immune system'.

Researchers have also established reduced effectiviness of the immune system indirectly causes cancer, although the specific mechanisms havent been established yet.

For example, take a look at aids patients. Most never die from HIV itself, but rather ancillary diseases, sometimes including systemic cancers, which pervade the body because the immune system has been rendered largely inoperable by HIV.

But as for the quantity of steroids used in experiments just cited and their possible equivlents for human use, im not sure.

Because of the ethical consequences of exposing human subjects to possible harmfull enviroments, its unlikely definitive proof will ever be available as to the consequences of steroid use in humans. Even if sustained steroid use is harmfull for humans.

The best we can go on is experiments using animals having a relativily similar physiology to humans, and they suggest excessive steroid use depletes the effectiviness of the subjects immune system.
 
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That is virtually irrelevant buddy until:

1. Dosages are kown...anti-oxidants become pro-oxidants in exessive amounts

2. "Some Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids (A-ASs) stimulate the Immune System (note that different A-ASs stimulate the Immune System to different extents):

- Caution: the use of A-ASs for the Immune System is presently still experimental and in some regions it is illegal. - Methenolone stimulates some aspects of the Immune System. - Nandrolone Decanoate stimulates some aspects of the Immune System. - Oxandrolone stimulates some aspects of the Immune System. - Stanozolol stimulates some aspects of the Immune System. "

http://www.pandamedicine.com/rt_health/71-1.html


Your linking is pretty specious buddy... stress depresses the immune system as well... steroids are not carcinogenic.

Also, what exactly are the details behind 'excessive steroid application' and what and where were the 'malignant tumors' formed?
 
im not talking shit here or bitching guys, but how did steroids come up in this? i dont care, im just curious. :)
 
buddy was implying (what i gathered from it) that CNN is not a propaganda machine because he said that steroids cause cancer as well as ephedra is used to make meth....the latter may be true, the former is specious at the very best
 
Frackal said:



No steroid has ever been conclusively linked to cancer. Anadrol has some linkage to liver tumors, but likely due to excessive dosages.

Not sure what your point is here.


Anadrol was the fav steroid subscription for AIDS patients. They took very large doses, non stop, for years. Of course there were liver complications.

Personally I doubt that 50mg of anadrol is significantly more liver toxic than 50mg of most any other oral steroid.
 
Frackal said:



Your linking is pretty specious buddy... stress depresses the immune system as well... steroids are not carcinogenic.

Also, what exactly are the details behind 'excessive steroid application' and what and where were the 'malignant tumors' formed?

Based on my limited knowledge, I was wrong to imply all steroids inhibit the effectiveness of the immune system via the thymus gland in animals.

I should have been more precise. Long term effects of sustained corticosteroid application suppress immune system response in lab rats, resulting in a significant increase in the onset of terminal disease.

The immunosuppressive effects of corticosteroids on the thymus gland is theorized to decrease long term ability of the thymus to produce thymic hormones, inhibiting efficient function of the immune system.

To be honest frackal, i dont know a whole lot about endocrinology, except what i studied in university.

But responding to your comment that steroids are not carcinogenic (in humans? or animals? or both?). I dont know if id go this far.

The relevance of what i said in my earlier post still holds. The overwhelming majority of reliable experiments investigating long term effects of steroid use is limited to studies using animal subjects.

I suppose this can be interpreted both ways. But the 'experiments' investigating long term effects of steroid use in humans, to my knowledge, are fraught with methodological aberrations, which makes any claims resulting from these experiments, highly dubious.

After reading your response, i found a webpage called toxnet which has a database of chemicals and their associated toxicology rating, carcinogenic properties, ect.

http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/htmlgen?Multi

The database includes listings for both anabolic and catabolic steroids. Relevant animal toxicology studies accompany information listings about certain steroids, with some experimental abstracts indicating said steroid exhibit carcinogenic characteristics.

To be thorough we'd have to go over the experimental methodology of the studies in question, and then assess how valid these results are to humans in light of differing physiology of the subjects used.


I know this post is getting kinda long. But the points were touching upon in our conversation reminded me of a long time ago, when I used to be really pro E and was popping hits twice or three times a month.

Neuroscientists started saying E caused brain damage. I scoffed. How could they know? They have no casual evidence suggesting such a link, and reliable experimental studies conducted used animals whose physiology differs from humans.


After going through the relevant experiments using subjects from rats to primates, and seeing similar effects all the way through, it dawned on me, I was supporting a position not because the data suggested it, but because i wanted to believe it.
 
supernav said:
CNN is the most DANGEROUS organization on the planet. It can influence the nation to think whatever the hell they want to think. They control the media, washington and the public. They should be regulated.

-= nav =-

RIGHT ON!!!
 
2Thick said:


Nobody wants to fight a war besides the US right-wing government. Am I the only one that sees this?

last time i looked, EVERY UN nation minus france, germany, and russia supports military action. thats 16 nations for, 3 against. define "nobody."
 
ariolanine said:
Right. Democracy doesn't apply to us. We are a Republic. And you are nuts if you think CNN is anything but left wing. And our gov't is not right wing. Dubya is just barely right of center.

CNN is not left-wing. It has a multinational corporatist pro-american agenda.

Dubya is a right-wing extremist. The Democrats are centrists - and right of centre in economics. They are more akin to the British Labour party who have evolved as a centrist, not left wing party. In fact the US Democrats would still be to the right of Labour in ideology if not in practice.

The US does not have a left wing party due to its suppression of political freedom, the labour movement, and communism during the 1950s. Much of this political suppression remains. It is the exception rather than the rule to find professors teaching communist theory in "respectable" US universities. Even for non-communists, communism forms the most comprehensive system of analysis of liberalism and must be included in a well-balanced political environment.

The US population is by and large very conservative and right leaning. It is only in such an environment that Democrats can be considered a party of the left. Elsewhere in the world parties with a Republican agenda are classified as far FAR right.

Republican ideology is ridiculous and non-sensicle to most people outside the US who have a more social democtratic worldview. In other Western countries, far right extremists have minority appeal and aren't a major party like the Republicans are in the US.
 
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HansNZ said:


CNN is not left-wing. It has a multinational corporatist pro-american agenda.

Under Ted Turner, it was certainly not a conservative news network, if that's what you're suggesting.

Dubya is a right-wing extremist. The Democrats are centrists - and right of centre in economics. They are more akin to the British Labour party who have evolved as a centrist, not left wing party. In fact the US Democrats would still be to the right of Labour in ideology if not in practice.

All of this is according to your perceptions. To me, Bush is not an extremist, though some of his appointees, namely Ashcroft, border on it. Many dems here would be considered fascists in Europe.

The US does not have a left wing party due to its suppression of political freedom, the labour movement, and communism during the 1950s. Much of this political suppression remains. It is the exception rather than the rule to find professors teaching communist theory in "respectable" US universities. Even for non-communists, communism forms the most comprehensive system of analysis of liberalism and must be included in a well-balanced political environment.

I'm not sure which "respectable US universities" you're referring to, but the two universities I've attended, and a community college, all included communism in their political classes. In fact, the university I currently attend has a tenured professor who is also chairman of the state communist party.

The US population is by and large very conservative and right leaning. It is only in such an environment that Democrats can be considered a party of the left. Elsewhere in the world parties with a Republican agenda are classified as far FAR right.

Agreed, though more Americans identify with the Democratic party. Republicans actually show up and vote, however.

Republican ideology is ridiculous and non-sensicle to most people outside the US who have a more social democtratic worldview. In other Western countries, far right extremists have minority appeal and aren't a major party like the Republicans are in the US.

And European ideology is ridiculous to most Americans, who value individual rights moreso than Europeans. Maybe it has to do with our "melting pot," but America doesn't have the historic cultural bonds that say the Franks or Germans do. Along the same lines, most Americans wouldn't be willing to sacrifice our monetary policy for the sake of a better North America. Apparently, the UK agrees with us on that as well.
 
spentagn said:
Under Ted Turner, it was certainly not a conservative news network, if that's what you're suggesting.

I am suggesting that it is right leaning. It may not appear corporatist to Americans though. In fact by American standards it is not right-leaning at all. It appears very leftist.

All of this is according to your perceptions. To me, Bush is not an extremist, though some of his appointees, namely Ashcroft, border on it.


Yes, perceptions too. But ideologically he reads like a right-winger from a polsci textbook.

Many dems here would be considered fascists in Europe.[/B]


I would have to agree with that.

I'm not sure which "respectable US universities" you're referring to, but the two universities I've attended, and a community college, all included communism in their political classes. In fact, the university I currently attend has a tenured professor who is also chairman of the state communist party.[/B]


My Professor was fired when he worked at princeton for teaching marxism. I know several Americans who went to IV league colleges and endorse my opinion. One American I met recently, went to Brown University, which he classified as liberal. He said Marxism is hardly touched upon there.

Agreed, though more Americans identify with the Democratic party. Republicans actually show up and vote, however.

And European ideology is ridiculous to most Americans, who value individual rights moreso than Europeans. [/B]


The primacy of "individual rights in US society is largely rhetoric. It didn't stop you from having segregation or suppressing political freedom and diversity. I wouldn't want to have been or still be a communist in the USA.

In New Zealand we value individuals rights. We have more of them than you do too. I'd love to see our government hold its citizens without legal representation for months as has occurred in the US since 9/11. This US is also the only developed country which still executes people - yet the US will preach about human rights! Nothing in social democratic ideology impeaches individual rights - quite the contrary. That is a right-wing American argument based on assertion more than fact.

Maybe it has to do with our "melting pot," but America doesn't have the historic cultural bonds that say the Franks or Germans do. Along the same lines, most Americans wouldn't be willing to sacrifice our monetary policy for the sake of a better North America. Apparently, the UK agrees with us on that as well. [/B]


In New Zealand we are a melting pot too, and Republican ideology is non-sensicle to us. In fact we find Republican style conservatism to be an anathema for a tolerant and pluralistic society.
 
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HansNZ said:


In New Zealand we are a melting pot too, and Republican ideology is non-sensicle to us. In fact we find Republican style conservatism to be an anathema for a tolerant and pluralistic society.

America is pluralism at its best, and its very worst.
 
CNN is responding to its loss of ratings by becoming more Fox-like -- conservative and blending reporting with commentary. I know lots of people who work in the Atlanta offices and they all feel the pressure. There isn't much effort inside the organization to hide this strategy.
 
buddy28 said:


Based on my limited knowledge, I was wrong to imply all steroids inhibit the effectiveness of the immune system via the thymus gland in animals.

I should have been more precise. Long term effects of sustained corticosteroid application suppress immune system response in lab rats, resulting in a significant increase in the onset of terminal disease.

You have effectively destroyed your argument. Androgens are not corticosteroids. All steroids are not the same.

Please stop with the steroids/meth post.
 
buddy28 said:


Based on my limited knowledge, I was wrong to imply all steroids inhibit the effectiveness of the immune system via the thymus gland in animals.

I should have been more precise. Long term effects of sustained corticosteroid application suppress immune system response in lab rats, resulting in a significant increase in the onset of terminal disease.

You have effectively destroyed your argument. Androgens are not corticosteroids. All steroids are not the same.

Please stop with the steroids/meth post.
 
HansNZ said:
The primacy of "individual rights in US society is largely rhetoric. It didn't stop you from having segregation or suppressing political freedom and diversity. I wouldn't want to have been or still be a communist in the USA.

Governments are imperfect forms of social cohesiveness, that doesn't mean that all are equal, since most fall short of their ideals. The argument that slavery demonstrates the failure of US philosophy is kind of ridiculous, since slavery was not a US creation but a worldwide institution, same for women's rights. Simply because intelligent men at one time thought that the world was flat does not argue that science is pure rhetoric.

I would not want to be a communist anywhere.

In New Zealand we value individuals rights. We have more of them than you do too. I'd love to see our government hold its citizens without legal representation for months as has occurred in the US since 9/11. This US is also the only developed country which still executes people - yet the US will preach about human rights! Nothing in social democratic ideology impeaches individual rights - quite the contrary. That is a right-wing American argument based on assertion more than fact.

Please list us what rights you have that the US does not have?

Do you really believe that New Zealanders would do anything more than the US people have done, if your country detained people without representation? I am against our government's action in this regard, but if you really believe that people will relinquish their modern day security to protest or march on the government, then you are deluded. A by-product of socialism is that people don't have a cohesive, collective culture to care about, only bickering factions, which prevents them from seeing abstract evils. They would come together if military rushed their shores, but not if government passed seemingly minor restrictions, that doesn't immediately affect the majority of the population.

As for the death penalty, your argument is specious. If you cannot differentiate between law-abiding citizens and their rights and murderous individuals, then there is no debate. There is no reasoning with moral relativism.
 
atlantabiolab said:


Governments are imperfect forms of social cohesiveness, that doesn't mean that all are equal, since most fall short of their ideals. The argument that slavery demonstrates the failure of US philosophy is kind of ridiculous, since slavery was not a US creation but a worldwide institution, same for women's rights. Simply because intelligent men at one time thought that the world was flat does not argue that science is pure rhetoric.

My point is this. The US was preaching against Russian tyranny. The US was preaching about how people come to the US for its "freedom". This all occured during a time when segregation existed and political persecution of communists was rife. This is what I mean by US rhetoric. It is typically American to make blind assertions such as: "we are the freest" or "we are the richest" (actually Norway is), regardless of what the facts are. That is why it is rhetoric.

I would not want to be a communist anywhere.[/B]


ESPECIALLY in the U S of A.

Communists here had (and still have) far more political freedom. In fact during the fifties, sixties and seventies the universities were overflowing with them. As in many other Western democratic countries (i.e. Scandavavian states ), this communist ideology operated within a democratic system. It was largely responsible for the creation of the welfare state, free and universal healthcare and education, as well as dramatically improved working and housing conditions.

Please list us what rights you have that the US does not have?[/B]


OK, where do I start. Well firstly my government can't execute me under ANY circumstances. It is your argument differentiating law-abiding citizens and criminals which is specious. In our laws all criminals enjoy basic human rights - no matter what their crime. Your argument can be used to basically justify any penalty. Saudi Arabia or Malaysia or China will make the same argument in favour of, say, caning or torture. Yet the USA will criticise such human rights abuses (esp. in countries they want to generate negative public opinion against).

Recently the FBI has enthusiastically swept up hundreds of innocent people, or those against whom they have insufficient evidence. More than 1200 people have "disappeared", in the USA as people do under Latin American military regimes. These people have been denied the normal proceedural rights and representation that they cannot be denied here. This isn't just foreign citizens, this has happened to Americans too.

Under the Patriot Act, which a supine Congress rushed through for Bush and effectively suspends the Bill of Rights, the FBI has the right to search the databases of public libraries and see what people are reading. Universities are told on the quiet to report outspoken students and their teachers. The connection has been spelt out - dissent, far from being a democratic right, is now part of an overall "security problem."

There are many more rights, not just those denied recently that we have which you don't. In order to get my facts straight I would need to look these up though. One other area that I do know about for sure is the fact the homosexuals in the USA lack basic rights and freedoms as well as constitutional protection which they have here.

Do you really believe that New Zealanders would do anything more than the US people have done, if your country detained people without representation? I am against our government's action in this regard, but if you really believe that people will relinquish their modern day security to protest or march on the government, then you are deluded. [/B]


But this begs the question, why is the USA's security under attack and not NZ? It is because Americans fuck with other people's countries? We don't need to prtect our "security" because we don't go around bullying people in the first place! You can argue theoretical scenarios, but the fact remains that there is NO precedent in our modern history of anyone being detained without representation under any circumstances.

We continue not to fuck other countries over, even if there is a penalty in it for us. Unlike Australia, which has bowed to US arm-twisting, NZ says it wants nothing to do with your Iraq war. We will be punished by the USA as a result .

The USA will probably do this by excluding us from a free trade agreement which will include Australia. This will result in a HUGE run of capital from NZ to Australia. We've experienced such penalties before when we became anti-nuclear and the US sanctioned us because we wouldn't allow their nukes in our ports.

A by-product of socialism is that people don't have a cohesive, collective culture to care about, only bickering factions, which prevents them from seeing abstract evils.[/B]


Yikes! This is the first time i've ever heard this. This is merely a loaded ideological opinion. Definitely the sort of right-wing rhetoric that gets bandied about in the USA. I would tend to say that rampant individualism causes these issues and that socialism tends to bridge them. Once again we are down to ideology so don't make these assertions as if they are some form of empirical fact.
 
HansNZ said:


CNN is not left-wing. It has a multinational corporatist pro-american agenda.

Dubya is a right-wing extremist. The Democrats are centrists - and right of centre in economics. They are more akin to the British Labour party who have evolved as a centrist, not left wing party. In fact the US Democrats would still be to the right of Labour in ideology if not in practice.

The US does not have a left wing party due to its suppression of political freedom, the labour movement, and communism during the 1950s. Much of this political suppression remains. It is the exception rather than the rule to find professors teaching communist theory in "respectable" US universities. Even for non-communists, communism forms the most comprehensive system of analysis of liberalism and must be included in a well-balanced political environment.

The US population is by and large very conservative and right leaning. It is only in such an environment that Democrats can be considered a party of the left. Elsewhere in the world parties with a Republican agenda are classified as far FAR right.

Republican ideology is ridiculous and non-sensicle to most people outside the US who have a more social democtratic worldview. In other Western countries, far right extremists have minority appeal and aren't a major party like the Republicans are in the US.


Did you graduate high school? Everything except the last paragraph is completely false.
 
Big Brother Val said:
I'm all for wiping out Iraq. No problem there.

But I haven't been convinced we need to go bomb the shit out of him RIGHT NOW or something terrible will happen. The US government is pressing the hell out of everyone to support them... then scare the shit out of the American people by telling us we need to get prepared for a terrorist attack... as in THE ENTIRE COUNTRY needs to be prepared... how many times have we been attacked on our own soil? But conveniently, when America is doing everything possible to start the war, ALL Americans need to be prepared, because big bad Iraq and the 2 members still alive of the terrorist network just might be able to fuck us all up.

Sure... kill Hussein... fine. But don't do it at the expense of world-wide tension. That insignificant little fuck didn't attack us on Sept 11.

America needs to calm the fuck down. We sent too many troops over too fast, and now we don't want to have our bluff called, so we have to try to manipulate everyone into joining our cause... because what would the big bad US do if we sent all those troops over, and didn't attack?

This whole fuckin' thing is stupid to me.
........Right now, its about positioning and strength of hand. The United States with troops, planes and a naval base in Iraq allows the US to put alot of pressure on Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria.

Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria seems to be 3 of the biggest problems in the war on terrorism.

Lets see how fast the terrorists dry up in those places when the people in charge realize that there is one 9.11 type attack away from being overrun.
 
ariolanine said:



Did you graduate high school? Everything except the last paragraph is completely false.

Is that so? I'd like to hear your reasons why everything else is exremely false. The conservatism of American society is well recognised abroad. Perhaps you lack perspective?

The lack of objectivity and the manipulation of facts in favour of US interests is also well documented in the US media. CNN is considered a leftist news organisation by Americans, despite its blatantly corporatist, pro-american stance. But if you were to use other US media as a reference point it probably seems "hard-hitting".

The lack of credible information in the US about world issues, economic ideology, and the US's behaviour is probably the main reason why US public opinion is so often completely out of step with the rest of the world.

Perhaps you have been the victim of too much US propaganda yourself. Of course there is still some "freedom of the press" in the USA. It is usually only found in small independent publications though. Why don't you look for some and you might learn something. Your more objectively informed opinions might mean you become part of the solution rather than reflecting the monolithic brainwashed mentality of the American masses that is so much of a problem for our world.
 
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4everhung said:
........Right now, its about positioning and strength of hand. The United States with troops, planes and a naval base in Iraq allows the US to put alot of pressure on Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria.

Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria seems to be 3 of the biggest problems in the war on terrorism.

Lets see how fast the terrorists dry up in those places when the people in charge realize that there is one 9.11 type attack away from being overrun.


The pressure the US has applied is without doubt the reason why inspectors have returned to Iraq. Hardly any one diagrees with that. The problem is the perception of threat. Even Israel doesn't think Iraq is a major issue. People believe this whole WMD issue is just a pretext for other real reasons.

Saddam has been under immense pressure in Iraq for 12 years. If he was going to (or able to) do anything he would have done it already. Of course he's probably hiding something, but it is doubtful whether any of this is on a large enough scale to warrant so much attention. His neighbours undoubtably have far more nasties hiding in their military arsenals.

The problem with Saudi Arabia is that its government is a US ally - in fact it's government owes its existence to the US - but it isn't liked or wanted by the Saudi people. Putting pressure on the Saudi government is pointless really because they don't control the terrorists in their borders. The terrorists are equally hated by them.

Putting more pressure on other countries in the region or installing pro-american governments doesn't really work. Look what a failure the Shah of Iran was. In fact bringing these countries back into the US sphere of influence just aggravates the people who commit acts of terrorism.

The problem can only be solved at its source. The problem is the US's greed, blatant double standards and the resentment of people throughout the region.
 
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HansNZ said:


CNN is not left-wing. It has a multinational corporatist pro-american agenda.

What agenda is that. CNN was 100% pro Clinton. When Gore lost the election to Dubya the anchors were visibly somber. You might think it is right wing because it is owned by a multinational news conglomerate, but that is false. Virtually all media in this country is left leaning, CNN in particular. It used to be run by a guy who married the biggest American traitor since Benedict Arnold.

[/QUOTE]Dubya is a right-wing extremist. The Democrats are centrists - and right of centre in economics. They are more akin to the British Labour party who have evolved as a centrist, not left wing party. In fact the US Democrats would still be to the right of Labour in ideology if not in practice.[/B][/QUOTE]

Dubya can't be a right wing extremist. He favors big government and immigration. That puts him at just right of center. No self respecting right winger would propose billions of dollars in aid to Africa or opening the flood gates of Mexico.

[/QUOTE]The US does not have a left wing party due to its suppression of political freedom, the labour movement, and communism during the 1950s. Much of this political suppression remains. It is the exception rather than the rule to find professors teaching communist theory in "respectable" US universities. Even for non-communists, communism forms the most comprehensive system of analysis of liberalism and must be included in a well-balanced political environment.[/B][/QUOTE]

We do have a left wing party called the Green party which is led by commie extraordinaire Ralph Nader. There was no supression of the labor movement. Union membership was higher in the 1950's than it is today. You obviously haven't been educated in America. Communist/Leftist theory is taught at every level. I had it in high school and college. The teachers unions try to indoctrinate everyone.

[/QUOTE]The US population is by and large very conservative and right leaning. It is only in such an environment that Democrats can be considered a party of the left. Elsewhere in the world parties with a Republican agenda are classified as far FAR right.[/B][/QUOTE]

The US population is about 50% right of center. But hardly any of those people are true right wing. The majority of Americans straddle the line on many issues. The proposals by the Democratic party in this country are very leftist. We escaped catastrophe in mid 90's when we elected a Republican Congress. If Bill Clinton was allowed to run free America would be in shambles right now. The leaders of the Democratic party are about as left wing as you can get. Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Barbra Streisand, George Clooney, Sean Penn, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton. These are all evil people who want nothing more than to turn the US into a third world country like most places in Europe.

[/QUOTE]Republican ideology is ridiculous and non-sensicle to most people outside the US who have a more social democtratic worldview. In other Western countries, far right extremists have minority appeal and aren't a major party like the Republicans are in the US. [/B][/QUOTE]

You are mostly correct. But right wing parties have made inroads in Austria, England, and France.
 
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Here are some facts about the security council.

Permanent members
• United States
• Russia
• China
• Britain
• France

Elected members
• Angola
• Bulgaria
• Cameroon
• Chile
• Guinea
• Germany
• Mexico
• Pakistan
• Syria
• Spain

Right now everyone with the exception of the U.S., Britain and Spain are against military action.
 
ariolanine said:


What agenda is that. CNN was 100% pro Clinton. When Gore lost the election to Dubya the anchors were visibly somber. You might think it is right wing because it is owned by a multinational news conglomerate, but that is false. Virtually all media in this country is left leaning, CNN in particular. It used to be run by a guy who married the biggest American traitor since Benedict Arnold.

Why does supporting Clinton indicate that CNN is left-wing? Clinton is not a left-winger - he is a centrist. In fact he supported NAFTA - how much more right wing could that be! To say that most media in the USA is left leaning is absolutely absurd. CNN is as left wing as it comes, and they are not even particularly left-wing.

Dubya can't be a right wing extremist. He favors big government and immigration. That puts him at just right of center. No self respecting right winger would propose billions of dollars in aid to Africa or opening the flood gates of Mexico.[/B]


Developed countries are obliged by international agreements to contribute a minimum amount of their GDP as aid - about 0.7%. The USA's aid budget was previously about 0.22% of GDP. So Dubya increasing the USA's chronically underfunded aid programme by giving more aid to Africa hardly indicates his left wing credentials. If he was increasing it beyond 0.7% then you might have a case.

Anyone who proposes massive tax cuts is hardly "big government". You are defining right-wing as exclusively libertarian. Immigration is frequently in the agenda of right-wing parties, often to keep their corporate cronies happy by filling skills shortages in the labour force. You are trying to imply that all right-wingers are nationalists. This is not so.

We do have a left wing party called the Green party which is led by commie extraordinaire Ralph Nader. There was no supression of the labor movement. Union membership was higher in the 1950's than it is today. You obviously haven't been educated in America. Communist/Leftist theory is taught at every level. I had it in high school and college. The teachers unions try to indoctrinate everyone.[/B]


Oh really? So how many seats in congress do they have? How many Green presidents have their been? NONE. I am sure there is every possible party that can be imagined existing in the USA. I am sure there is probably an extraterrestrial contact party. What is relevant is who gets into power. To achieve this you have to be part of the Democrat or Republican establishment. Only the super wealthy such as Perot can break in, but even then he hasn't lasted.

The political development of the USA has been retarded by the lack of dialogue between liberal and communist theories that has occured in the rest of the Western world. While I am not a Communist myself, I do recognise that Communism provides the main and most comprehensive critique of liberalism in history. It is essential for a balanced political dialogue to occur. Instead, over the last 60 years - even longer - the powers that be in the US - those who control the government and media - have devoted themselves to vilifying communism, and by extension socialist ideas.

Libertarian ideology has gone largely unchallenged in the USA - hence the remarkable prevalence of this thinking among Americans. Ideological premises such as "tax is theft/tax reduces economic growth", "get rid of regulation and the market balances","minmum wage legislation causes unemployment",
"free markets = freedom", and other such opinions - all of which are answered by socialist theory - go predominantly unchallenged at an ideological level in US political debate.

This is glaringly obvious to anyone exposed to US culture or visiting the US. The general public's wierd ideas about so many things: "socialised" medicine, the welfare state, government intervention, private ownership. The masses parrot ideas which aren't their own, but simply the product of propaganda designed to control them.

The US population is about 50% right of center. But hardly any of those people are true right wing. The majority of Americans straddle the line on many issues. The proposals by the Democratic party in this country are very leftist. [/B]


VERY leftist? Whatever!

We escaped catastrophe in mid 90's when we elected a Republican Congress. If Bill Clinton was allowed to run free America would be in shambles right now. The leaders of the Democratic party are about as left wing as you can get. Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Barbra Streisand, George Clooney, Sean Penn, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton. These are all evil people who want nothing more than to turn the US into a third world country like most places in Europe. [/B]


The USA is already partly thrid world. It reminds me of South Africa in its extremes. The standard of living of the average American is no higher than in Western Europe, despite the USA significantly higher GDP per capita.

Social statistics are the greatest indication of how "third world" a country is than anything else. The USA's are abyssmal in comparison to Western Europe.

Republicanism is a catastrophe. That party perpetuates an environmentally unsustainable ideology, aggravates social tensions and alienates the rest of the world.

You are mostly correct. But right wing parties have made inroads in Austria, England, and France. [/B]


Yes, but these are third parties, they are not one of the major parties like the Republicans are in the USA. They also are able to get into power because of the proportional representation structure of government in many European countries which doesn't exist in the USA. The USA has a first-past-the-post system which institutionalises establishment parties.
 
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You've presented some well thought arguments. But I don't see the necessity of discussing communism and socialism because both have failed miserably every time they have been tried. Every country that has tried has been turned into a fucking dump. In particular please explain this statement.

"Libertarian ideology has gone largely unchallenged in the USA - hence the remarkable prevalence of this thinking among Americans. Ideological premises such as "tax is theft/tax reduces economic growth", "get rid of regulation and the market balances","minmum wage legislation causes unemployment",
"free markets = freedom", and other such opinions - all of which are answered by socialist theory - go predominantly unchallenged at an ideological level in US political debate"

Why is it so remarkable that we believe something that has been proven by our success and the rest of the world's failures. We have the highest standard of living in the world. We have the best schools, the best medicine, etc...I have been to many countries and none have even come close to duplicating America.
 
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ariolanine said:

You've presented some well thought arguments. But I don't see the necessity of discussing communism and socialism because both have failed miserably every time they have been tried. Every country that has tried has been turned into a fucking dump.

Communism has certainly failed to be effective long-term. It seems effective when a country is underdeveloped, but after a certain level of development is reached coomunism's short falls become acute. It is better when it is grafted onto a market style system - evolving into a sort of social democratic model. Its function is best served as a moderator and conscience of the capitalist system, as has happened in Western Europe, rather than a replacement for it.

Planning has certainly been proved by East Asian nations to be the most effective way of achieving rapid growth. There is no example of any country developing using a free-market model. Even places like Hong Kong and Macau owe their modern day success to their trade monopolies with China. The USA's growth rate since WW2 has been lower than those of Western Europe with their "evil" socialist systems.

Here in NZ we had a whole lot of right-wing ideologues gain control in the early 1980s who turned NZ towards a extremely free market model. The result was stagnant growth and social decay. We learned very quickly that a mixed economy is the only viable solution.

In particular please explain this statement.
"Libertarian ideology has gone largely unchallenged in the USA - hence the remarkable prevalence of this thinking among Americans. Ideological premises such as "tax is theft/tax reduces economic growth", "get rid of regulation and the market balances","minmum wage legislation causes unemployment",
"free markets = freedom", and other such opinions - all of which are answered by socialist theory - go predominantly unchallenged at an ideological level in US political debate"[/B]


Explain what?

Why is it so remarkable that we believe something that has been proven by our success and the rest of the world's failures. We have the highest standard of living in the world. We have the best schools, the best medicine, etc...I have been to many countries and none have even come close to duplicating America. [/B]


What do you mean the "rest" of the world. Are you implying that the USA is the only country that has succeeded. This is the type of arrogance that Americans are renound for.

You have the third highest GDP per capita which doesn't necessarily translate into standard of living. Your medical system is a perfect example of how little can be delivered to so few for so much money.

Standard of living involves more than just GDP. As mentioned the USA's social statistics are abysmal. Overall the standard of living in the USA is probably around about average for a developed country. Considering you have more resources to work with then that is not particularly impressive.

As for your education and health being "the best" - what a load of crap that is. American schools under perform compared to other Western nations. NZ is WAY ahead in every category.

Your health care system is a marvel of inefficiency. You spend about twice as much as other developed countries for health care delivery that is far from a reflection of the gold plated prices paid for it. In fact the USA comes in at about 30th to 50th in the world in several comparative medical surveys. I often wonder why Americans don't ask themselves this: why it is that if their medical system is so wonderful, the rest of the world isn't running to copy it.
 
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HansNZ said:

As for your education and health being "the best" - what a load of crap that is. American schools under perform compared to other Western nations. NZ is WAY ahead in every category.

Your health care system is a marvel of inefficiency. You spend about twice as much as other developed countries for health care delivery that is far from a reflection of the gold plated prices paid for it. In fact the USA comes in at about 30th to 50th in the world in several comparative medical surveys. I often wonder why Americans don't ask themselves this: why it is that if their medical system is so wonderful, the rest of the world isn't running to copy it.

It IS amazing how these myths of American superiority persist in the face of hard empirical evidence to the contrary. There was a famous study in Spain pertinent to this and education a few years ago. The upper class there has long been in the habit of sending its children to American schools -- public schools and the nation's best private schools -- for a superior education.

The study, conducted over years, involved testing these children and random children educated in the "inferior" Spanish public school system. In every category the Spanish-educated kids did better. The biggest difference was in geography, a nice expression of how Americans are actually educated to be ignorant of the rest of the world whereas European-educated children are taught to see themselves as part of a world community.
 
How is our standard of living average. We own our own houses and drive giant SUV's. People in Europe live in apartments and drive scooters. Wealthy people from all over the world come to our country for school and medical care. In what way is our medical system inefficient? I get the best care in the world for 30 dollars a month. If I am an example of American arrogance, you are an example of euro ignorance. I know it's hard for former powers to look at the young upstart supercede them, but get used to it. The disparity is only going to increase.
 
ariolanine said:
How is our standard of living average. We own our own houses and drive giant SUV's. People in Europe live in apartments and drive scooters. Wealthy people from all over the world come to our country for school and medical care. In what way is our medical system inefficient? I get the best care in the world for 30 dollars a month. If I am an example of American arrogance, you are an example of euro ignorance. I know it's hard for former powers to look at the young upstart supercede them, but get used to it. The disparity is only going to increase.


Most countries in Europe have socialized medicine. They do not have to pay for it. The government pays for it. Here, we have starving people on the streets.. diseases with no cure.. mothers with no income.. and we give billions of dollars away to a country that has caused us to go to war for the second time.
 
dballer said:



Most countries in Europe have socialized medicine. They do not have to pay for it. The government pays for it. Here, we have starving people on the streets.. diseases with no cure.. mothers with no income.. and we give billions of dollars away to a country that has caused us to go to war for the second time.

So there are no scubag homeless in europe? no teenage pregnancies in europe?
 
ariolanine said:


So there are no scubag homeless in europe? no teenage pregnancies in europe?

I am sure there are... the only diffrence is.. they give those people medical attention.. we do not.. therefore.. those "scumbag" people give us (people like you and I) their scumbag diseases.
 
People in Germany are only homeless if they are to proud to go to the authorities.
You will get a shitty apartment or you will get a place in a homeless shelter, but you will get something.
 
dballer said:


I am sure there are... the only diffrence is.. they give those people medical attention.. we do not.. therefore.. those "scumbag" people give us (people like you and I) their scumbag diseases.


You're kidding right? Poor people in this country have free medical care. I know you are going to come back and say that's bullshit but it really isn't. Two of my friends are in the medical field and they see this shit every day. In fact, when you call the cops on a bum for pissing on your car they will bring a paramedic with them to see if he "needs some help." Illegal aliens even have free medical care in this country. That is why Kalifornia is bankrupt. The real reason the system is fucked up is because of excessive litigation. Even so, anyone with intelligence would rather have an operation in America than ANYWHERE else.
 
dballer said:



Most countries in Europe have socialized medicine. They do not have to pay for it. The government pays for it.

You are truly joking right? Tell us where the government gets it's money to pay for this medical care. Are they opening up the printing press and giving out cash? Do you not understand that for government to hand out money it must TAKE that money from working individuals?

Here, we have starving people on the streets..

Then they are truly the laziest individuals on earth. Every city has some sort of shelter for homeless and hungry. Are we to go out searching for these individuals and round them up to house and feed them?

diseases with no cure..

If the US can't cure it, no other country can either. Not all diseases have cures, don't ya know?

mothers with no income..

Do you live in the real world? Do you think that Utopia exists? That there is a place where death, hunger and disease are non-existant? This is the fallacy of socialism, that somehow taking money from one person to give to another will cure the ills of the world. That disparity causes suffering.

and we give billions of dollars away to a country that has caused us to go to war for the second time.

And we give billions to all of the programs above. Government is not cutting social spending to give money to another country.
 
ariolanine said:



You're kidding right? Poor people in this country have free medical care. I know you are going to come back and say that's bullshit but it really isn't. Two of my friends are in the medical field and they see this shit every day. In fact, when you call the cops on a bum for pissing on your car they will bring a paramedic with them to see if he "needs some help." Illegal aliens even have free medical care in this country. That is why Kalifornia is bankrupt. The real reason the system is fucked up is because of excessive litigation. Even so, anyone with intelligence would rather have an operation in America than ANYWHERE else.

I had routine surgery for a busted jaw in the USA performed by one of Texas's "best" plastic surgeons after I was involved in a bus accident there. To cut a long story short - it was a disaster. When I got back to my inferior country of New Zealand, our inferior doctors had to reoperate to fix the mess that your superior medical practitioners caused.
 
ariolanine said:
How is our standard of living average. We own our own houses and drive giant SUV's. People in Europe live in apartments and drive scooters. Wealthy people from all over the world come to our country for school and medical care. In what way is our medical system inefficient? I get the best care in the world for 30 dollars a month. If I am an example of American arrogance, you are an example of euro ignorance. I know it's hard for former powers to look at the young upstart supercede them, but get used to it. The disparity is only going to increase.

I have told you repeatedly that I live in New Zealand. I realise that you were educated in a school system superior to everyone else's so that means that you know New Zealand is right there smack in the middle of Europe, right?

You've probably never even heard of New Zealand. Europeans know where it is and have a positive view of it - often unrealistically positive. I've never had a European tell me that my country is inferior.

As for owning your own house, the USA's rate of home ownership is lower than most of Europe. As for owning cars - the average wage in France/Germany/Scandanavia/Benelux nations/, Switzerland, etc, etc., is higher than in the USA - so europeans can afford to own cars too. They often choose not to because of good public transport and congestion problems on their roads caused by "evil" socialists and environmentalists who don't want their cities turning into a spaghetti of roads like so many US cities.

As for rates of car ownership, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, etc. have just as many cars. This of course is a bad thing because cars are the leading emittors of greenhouse gasses - but of course Republicans deny that global warming even exists!

I don't see Europeans rushing to the USA for medical care. As for people in third world countries, I think this is more the exception than the rule. The cost of medical treatment in the USA is too high. What you are thinking of is probably specialist treatment.

But we have people coming to NZ for specialist treatment too. If something is a medical niche then obviously it may be available in only one country where it was pioneered. People come to NZ because it is a world leader in asthma treatments. People go to Spain because it is a world leader in certain types of eye surgery, and so on.

As for the USA "superceding" everyone, the USA has been losing ground for 60 years now. Americans are like the Chinese used to be. They were so convinced that they were the central kingdom around which the whole world revolved that by the time they woke up they found that they'd been left in the dust.

As for "Euro" arrogance - this is nothing in comparison to that encountered in the USA. When I went to the USA people implied constantly that the USA must be better. People questioned whether I would try and stay and work illegally. The idea that I was more than happy to go home to my own country came as a shock. The news that NZ has lots of Americans who choose to live in my "inferior" country was even more of a shock to them. It was even suggested to me that they must have done this because they are hippies!

We have huge numbers of Americans here who like the place well enough to call it home. My best friend here is a scientist from California. My thesis advisor is from LA. He went back there a few months ago but can't wait to leave again. He says the fakeness of people in LA drives him crazy. My God mother is from Ohio. She married a NZer and has lived here for 35 years. These Americans all have the choice to live in the USA, but they choose to stay here, so it can't be so bad.

In Europe I experience the opposite of what I encountered in the USA. People know about New Zealand, and have a very positive attitude towards it. Norway is richer than the USA, and is as close to an straight A+ student as you can get in terms of is social statistics and general standard of living. I don't hear them saying that "everyone wants to be a Norwegian" or "we are the best, we are the greatest". That is the sort of arrogance you from the USA constantly.
 
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atlantabiolab said:


You are truly joking right? Tell us where the government gets it's money to pay for this medical care. Are they opening up the printing press and giving out cash? Do you not understand that for government to hand out money it must TAKE that money from working individuals?

This is a false argument consistently pedalled by Americans. What you CONSISTENTLY fail to hear, although it is told to you so often is that your private system is incredibly inefficient.

The US taxpayer spends more on healthcare than taxpayers in my country do. Yet we have free universal healthcare and you don't. In the US this tax money only covers a little over a third of healthcare costs - the rest is paid for by people taking out unbelievably expensive private medical insurance.

A friend of mine in Florida spends $3,000 a year on his medical insurance - for a healthy man in his early thirties! This is ridiculous when you compare it to the average full time wage in the USA of $32,273 a year. It escapes me how anyone can afford to get sick in that country. What's more 70% of full-time american workers earn less than $25,000 a year and the average family income is somewhere around the $50,000 mark. My friend is a high earner so maybe he has a super luxurious medical plan. But even so it does make you wonder what sort of healthcare a family of four can people afford at those prices.

State run systems are VASTLY more efficient than private systems that result in runaway costs. The USA spends more than US$5,000 on every man woman and child! This is absolutely absurd. You, my American friend, spend more of your taxes on healthcare than I do. And if you are like most Americans, on top of that you probably have to take out private insurance.

For ideological reasons and because of the power of medical lobbies you have a healthcare system that is a complete disaster. You are more than welcome to your "superior" medical system.


Then they are truly the laziest individuals on earth. Every city has some sort of shelter for homeless and hungry. Are we to go out searching for these individuals and round them up to house and feed them?[/B]


Homelessness is rarely caused by anything as convenient as laziness. It is usually a symptom of something such as mental illness, drug addiction, etc.

Do you live in the real world? Do you think that Utopia exists? That there is a place where death, hunger and disease are non-existant? This is the fallacy of socialism, that somehow taking money from one person to give to another will cure the ills of the world. That disparity causes suffering.[/B]


European style socialism, i.e. social democracy, makes no claims to solve these problems. What it says is that a capitalist system aggravates them. Socialism aims to provide people with an equal playing field from which they make of their own life what they will. There is no assumption that everyone will be equal.

The idea that socialism wants to force everyone to be equal by running down run down or penalising people who achieve is largely propaganda.

And we give billions to all of the programs above. Government is not cutting social spending to give money to another country. [/B]


The USA isn't currently cutting aid programmes because it isn't living up to its international obligations. It is undercontributing aid relative to other developed countries. On top of that, the aid it does give goes predominantly to a handful of countries such as Israel for less than humanitarian purposes.

By watching the news in the USA you'd swear that the USA bankrupts itself by giving out aid. In proportion to GDP the USA is one of the stingiest countries in the world. It is only the overall size of the US economy which makes the US's aid programme look respectable. You 'd swear that everyone in the world gets by because the USA gives them a handout. I notice that even Turkey is being presented this way in the US media. This is despite the fact that the costs to it of an American war against Iraq are likely to far exceed the $26 billion being offered.
 
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HansNZ said:

I notice that even Turkey is being presented this way in the US media. This is despite the fact that the costs to it of an American war against Iraq are likely to far exceed the $26 billion being offered.

It must suck to be a Turkish politician right now.
On the one hand , 90% of the population are opposed to the war and they want to join the EU with France, Germany, Austria and some other countries opposed to the war.
On the other hand, they are financially dependant on the US.
That´s a really tough decision.
 
Props to you, Hans, for bringing statistical evidence to your arguments. The myths that the US is so generous in humanitarian aid and that our medical system is the world's best are particularly galling.
 
Hanz you have some great points. Not entirely accurate for too many reasons to list right now. (no time) Never the less accuracy issue aside they're still valid points that should taken into study by my home country.
 
minion said:
Hanz you have some great points. Not entirely accurate for too many reasons to list right now. (no time) Never the less accuracy issue aside they're still valid points that should taken into study by my home country.

How about demonstrating one point that's inaccurate.
 
minion said:
Hanz you have some great points. Not entirely accurate for too many reasons to list right now. (no time) Never the less accuracy issue aside they're still valid points that should taken into study by my home country.

The thing is that I meet plenty of Americans who know all this already. But sadly there seems to be a monolithic mass of Americans programmed with all these wierd attitudes.

I'll often be watching a US movie or TV programme with my friend from California. He regularly flinches with embarrassment when he hears Americans parrot the wierd ideas that I have mentioned.
 
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Frackal said:
What is new zealand like enviromental-wise hanz?

Well New Zealand has a "clean, green" image. This is used to market ourselves as a tourist destination and to promote our agricultural products overseas. Sadly our clean green environment is more the result of having a country with a land area much bigger than Great Britain, but with less than 4 million people living in it. This is probably basically why it is so clean, rather than any outstanding effort on our part to make it so.

However, we are a world leader in protecting endangered species. This is largely because our country is so isolated, so contact with outside pests has been that much more damaging requiring a world leading effort to mitigate the problem. Most of our native birds, such as the kiwi, can't fly. With no predators they foraged for food on the ground. Humans came along with their exotic animals - rats, cats, etc., bringing about disasterous results.

My friend from California that I mentioned in my previous posts works for our conservation department. He moved here a year ago and so far he has been very impressed with what he sees. I do think we could do better though - but like everywhere, there aways has to be a compromise between preservation and economic activity.
 
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Norman Bates said:


It must suck to be a Turkish politician right now.
On the one hand , 90% of the population are opposed to the war and they want to join the EU with France, Germany, Austria and some other countries opposed to the war.
On the other hand, they are financially dependant on the US.
That´s a really tough decision.

Yes, I agree. It would be a terrorfying situation. They're damned if they do, damned if they don't.

If they do, they'll get US compensation, but they'll alienate public opinion. The government could potentially fall and they'll definitely strengthen the hand of religious parties. They will also be futher alienated from Germany and France who they need on their side if they want to join the EU.

If they don't support the US, the war will happen anyway. They'll be left with a massive refugee problem and billions of dollars of damage to their economy without US compensation. I'm glad I don't live in Turkey right now! In fact I am glad I don't live anywhere but right where I am at the moment. It is kind of comforting at times to have Antarctica as one of our closest neighbours, lol. Penguins don't pose as much of a threat :)
 
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HansNZ said:


The thing is that I meet plenty of Americans who know all this already. But sadly there seems to be a monolithic mass of Americans programmed with all these wierd attitudes.

I'll often be watching a US movie or TV programme with my friend from California. He regularly flinches with embarrassment when he hears Americans parrot the wierd ideas that I have mentioned.

What kind of wierd ideas?
 
2Thick said:


It was a polite way of describing ignorance...

You would know...you live in bliss.

Nice try Tooty, but there is no sense in me pointing out the obvious. You do an excellent job on your own.
 
HansNZ said:


I had routine surgery for a busted jaw in the USA performed by one of Texas's "best" plastic surgeons after I was involved in a bus accident there. To cut a long story short - it was a disaster. When I got back to my inferior country of New Zealand, our inferior doctors had to reoperate to fix the mess that your superior medical practitioners caused.



After stripping out all of your sarcasm, there is a huge logical "WTF?" left in the wake.

Your single experience aside, are you disagreeing that the American medical system is inundated with specialists and talented surgeons specifically because it is our system that allows them to reap huge rewards for their talents?

BTW... please do not assume I am in support of our current government simply because i used the term "our."

Also, It is likely that American sentiment towards pseudo-communist states is a direct result of government propaganda during the cold war era.... We were programmed to equate communism with the soviet union, and by extension, the soviet union with Satan himself. (Personally, i think the soviet government was even more atrocious than our own, btw).

I wonder though, how much of the rhetoric spewed by the US haters is a result of propaganda forming opinion which leads them to seek out sources with negative spin to justify their opinions?

HansNZ is OBVIOUSLY winning the arguments on this thread, but I believe that is more a result of his erudition than it is some kind of a universal superiority in what he is saying.

Now, on to a bit of a personal note, I wonder how some of these euro companies even survive. Those I have worked in have had a piss poor work ethic. They thought a 6 hour work day was good enough, and they took 6 weeks vacation per year. They were ALL in a union which prevented them from being terminated, and if they were, they received an entire year of severance pay. And, on top of that, they never got anything accomplished because they spent so much time delineating the task that they passed the deadline before even beginning.
 
anythingbutsane said:


HansNZ is OBVIOUSLY winning the arguments on this thread, but I believe that is more a result of his erudition than it is some kind of a universal superiority in what he is saying.

He's stating facts. Your only dispute was with his one anecdotal account. What's "superiority" got to do with it?
 
anythingbutsane said:

After stripping out all of your sarcasm, there is a huge logical "WTF?" left in the wake.

Your single experience aside, are you disagreeing that the American medical system is inundated with specialists and talented surgeons specifically because it is our system that allows them to reap huge rewards for their talents?

Basically my point is this: You can get the same quality of healthcare for half the price if your healthcare system is structured right. In my opinion, the evidence overwhelmingly teaches us that this is best achieved in a state system where medicine is delivered as a social service rather than profit-making enterprise.

BTW... please do not assume I am in support of our current government simply because i used the term "our."

Also, It is likely that American sentiment towards pseudo-communist states is a direct result of government propaganda during the cold war era.... We were programmed to equate communism with the soviet union, and by extension, the soviet union with Satan himself. (Personally, i think the soviet government was even more atrocious than our own, btw).[/B]


Amen. I agree with you totally. What I am battling against is americans who parrot the attitudes and ideas they have been programmed with, believing these notions are accurate, without recognising that they are propaganda.

I wonder though, how much of the rhetoric spewed by the US haters is a result of propaganda forming opinion which leads them to seek out sources with negative spin to justify their opinions?

HansNZ is OBVIOUSLY winning the arguments on this thread, but I believe that is more a result of his erudition than it is some kind of a universal superiority in what he is saying.[/B]


Well I have been to countries with controlled media and some of their anti-americanism is the product of propaganda. I live in a country which is dominated by US media and has a tendency towards being pro-US. I don't take at face value what I see in any media and form my own opinions, which are frequently at odds with dominant attitudes.

Now, on to a bit of a personal note, I wonder how some of these euro companies even survive. Those I have worked in have had a piss poor work ethic. They thought a 6 hour work day was good enough, and they took 6 weeks vacation per year. They were ALL in a union which prevented them from being terminated, and if they were, they received an entire year of severance pay. And, on top of that, they never got anything accomplished because they spent so much time delineating the task that they passed the deadline before even beginning. [/B]


Well if we are talking about a European work-ethic then that is a different story. I too share your observation. But I don't believe that this was being debated. I suppose what the Euro experience does show is that you don't need to run your workplace like a sweatshop to remain productive.
 
HansNZ said:


Basically my point is this: You can get the same quality of healthcare for half the price if your healthcare system is structured right. In my opinion, the evidence overwhelmingly teaches us that this is best achieved in a state system where medicine is delivered as a social service rather than profit-making enterprise.


on the whole, i agree. I find it likely, however, that a system which financially rewards doctors as much as capitalism does would attract the most talented specialists. Thus, for high end procedures you would be better of there.
 
anythingbutsane said:


on the whole, i agree. I find it likely, however, that a system which financially rewards doctors as much as capitalism does would attract the most talented specialists. Thus, for high end procedures you would be better of there.

I thought there were large barriers to foreign doctors working in the USA?
 
Norman Bates said:
Matt, do you think there should be international law that partly regulates how nations should behave with each other?

I think you meant to post this on the "god bless the brits" thread.
 
HansNZ said:


This is a false argument consistently pedalled by Americans. What you CONSISTENTLY fail to hear, although it is told to you so often is that your private system is incredibly inefficient.

The US taxpayer spends more on healthcare than taxpayers in my country do. Yet we have free universal healthcare and you don't. In the US this tax money only covers a little over a third of healthcare costs - the rest is paid for by people taking out unbelievably expensive private medical insurance.

A friend of mine in Florida spends $3,000 a year on his medical insurance - for a healthy man in his early thirties! This is ridiculous when you compare it to the average full time wage in the USA of $32,273 a year. It escapes me how anyone can afford to get sick in that country. What's more 70% of full-time american workers earn less than $25,000 a year and the average family income is somewhere around the $50,000 mark. My friend is a high earner so maybe he has a super luxurious medical plan. But even so it does make you wonder what sort of healthcare a family of four can people afford at those prices.

State run systems are VASTLY more efficient than private systems that result in runaway costs. The USA spends more than US$5,000 on every man woman and child! This is absolutely absurd. You, my American friend, spend more of your taxes on healthcare than I do. And if you are like most Americans, on top of that you probably have to take out private insurance.

For ideological reasons and because of the power of medical lobbies you have a healthcare system that is a complete disaster. You are more than welcome to your "superior" medical system.

Let me get this straight, you are saying that in a socialized medical system, the government does NOT take from the citizens to pay for the healthcare of the population? It DOES print more money and hands it out to those in need?

Now beyond the sarcasm, you don't understand that the US does not have a completely capitalistic medical system, if it did, I believe that medical care would be enormously lower. The US does have government healthcare which coupled with insurance companies have driven the cost of healthcare through the ceiling. Hospitals, doctors and medical companies have come to the understanding that the access to "collective pools" of money, i.e. Medicare and insurance companies, allowes them to charge increasingly higher rates for services, since the "pooling" effect of these organizations can handle these charges. If the healthcare system had to charge every individual for the services, and not an insurance company or government institution, then the prices would be forced down or they would go out of business.

You are correct that the US has an atrocious healthcare system, but it is not for the reason of not having universal healthcare, which will place enormous burden on the taxpayers eventually (Western European countries are not re-populating their workforce fast enough to handle the growing elderly population who are demanding more healthcare benefits, social security, etc.). Taxing me to pay for grandma is not a power proposed by my Constitution, it is a burden I endure due to the influence of socialism on my fellow men.

Homelessness is rarely caused by anything as convenient as laziness. It is usually a symptom of something such as mental illness, drug addiction, etc.

Both behaviours, no definable illness. Please show me the recent studies locating the organic nature of drug "addiction", what part of the brain is not functioning properly to cause drug seeking. These are conscious choices, not organic diseases, not to mention drug-use does not equate to homelessness, since millions have or use drugs without effect on their life.

The relatively few that are true schizophrenics are a pitiful problem, but the only alternative is forced institutionalization. Besides they are being outnumbered by the growing young societal drop-out subculture, who embody the concept of laziness.

European style socialism, i.e. social democracy, makes no claims to solve these problems. What it says is that a capitalist system aggravates them. Socialism aims to provide people with an equal playing field from which they make of their own life what they will. There is no assumption that everyone will be equal.

No it uses subjective terms such as "equal playing field", "fairness", etc. It provides such equality through confiscation of the productivity of its populace, a very moral concept. With said loot, it then doles out monies to constituents who will maintain the status quo, since they will not bite the hand that feeds. And the constituency will always vote to remove money from everyone but themselves, thereby exacerbating class warfare. This is the joy of democracy.

The idea that socialism wants to force everyone to be equal by running down run down or penalising people who achieve is largely propaganda.

A progressive income tax defines this idea.

The USA isn't currently cutting aid programmes because it isn't living up to its international obligations. It is undercontributing aid relative to other developed countries. On top of that, the aid it does give goes predominantly to a handful of countries such as Israel for less than humanitarian purposes.

What obligation does the people of the US have to contribute to foreign countries? What right do these countries have to mine and my fellow's income? Humanitarianism? You mean enforced altruism.

I understand that the US has claim to economic interests with other countries, since this promotes and stimulates economic growth, but these are in our self interest, not moral obligations as you attempt to put it. I would like to see the US halt all military interventions in foreign countries and become more isolationist. The US was not supposed to be an empire, but a country.
 
atlantabiolab said:


Let me get this straight, you are saying that in a socialized medical system, the government does NOT take from the citizens to pay for the healthcare of the population? It DOES print more money and hands it out to those in need?

You have obviously misunderstood my post. I am saying that a public health system will provide universal healthcare by taking from citizens HALF the amount that a private system does. I am saying why pay double for the same product. I am not saying public medicine is "free" I am saying that is is cheaper. The idea that you pay either way is false. You pay MORE your way.

Now beyond the sarcasm, you don't understand that the US does not have a completely capitalistic medical system, if it did, I believe that medical care would be enormously lower.[/B]


Actually if you read my post I said exactly that. THAT WAS MY POINT! You ALREADY pay in taxes a sum of money that would cover most of the costs of a public system. Sadly, an ideological prejudice against "socialised" medicine, and the power of corporate lobbies over both your congress and public opinion through scaremongering advertising have created the world's most inefficient system. You now already pay in taxes most of what you'd have to pay for a "socialised" system. And on top of that you have to spend even more on private insurance.

And you can believe that a capitalistic system would make healthcare cheaper if you want. But this is basically a theoretical, ideological wish because the experience of every other developed country quite clearly shows the opposite.

The US does have government healthcare which coupled with insurance companies have driven the cost of healthcare through the ceiling. Hospitals, doctors and medical companies have come to the understanding that the access to "collective pools" of money, i.e. Medicare and insurance companies, allowes them to charge increasingly higher rates for services, since the "pooling" effect of these organizations can handle these charges.

If the healthcare system had to charge every individual for the services, and not an insurance company or government institution, then the prices would be forced down or they would go out of business. [/B]


Yes, but in a "socialised" system the hospital wouldn't charge these amounts because they are not money making institutions - medicine is a social service! The hospitals are paying for the operation so why would they overcharge themselves? This is the whole point of having a public healthcare system. Doctors don't get paid more for charging more. In fact they'd lose their jobs.

The administrators who control the public medical purse know exactly how much an operation costs. They will not give private hospitals contracts to perform operations if they overcharge.

The USA's inability to get its house in order is due to sabotage from the lobbyists for whom medicine is a profit making business. Hence they encourage more "consumption" of it. Quack anti-socialist ideological theories, usually peddled by those who benefit from them continue to predominate in the USA towards anything that appears vaguely like socialism.

You are correct that the US has an atrocious healthcare system, but it is not for the reason of not having universal healthcare, which will place enormous burden on the taxpayers eventually (Western European countries are not re-populating their workforce fast enough to handle the growing elderly population who are demanding more healthcare benefits, social security, etc.). Taxing me to pay for grandma is not a power proposed by my Constitution, it is a burden I endure due to the influence of socialism on my fellow men.[/B]


You're kidding right?

It is your American system which is most suffering from this burden because of it VASTLY higher costs per capita. The healthcare cost blowouts of Western Europe are minor in comparison. With an aging population the need to keep costs down is achieved so much better in a public tax funded system.

As for social security, the last time I looked it was the USA which had the big problem. The aging population issue applies to the USA as well. Do you think that the USA doesn't have an aging population?

Both behaviours, no definable illness. Please show me the recent studies locating the organic nature of drug "addiction", what part of the brain is not functioning properly to cause drug seeking. These are conscious choices, not organic diseases, not to mention drug-use does not equate to homelessness, since millions have or use drugs without effect on their life.

The relatively few that are true schizophrenics are a pitiful problem, but the only alternative is forced institutionalization. Besides they are being outnumbered by the growing young societal drop-out subculture, who embody the concept of laziness.[/B]


So mental illness is a product of laziness? If these people weren't lazy they wouldn't be mentally ill? Do you simplify everything like this?

No it uses subjective terms such as "equal playing field", "fairness", etc. It provides such equality through confiscation of the productivity of its populace, a very moral concept. With said loot, it then doles out monies to constituents who will maintain the status quo, since they will not bite the hand that feeds. And the constituency will always vote to remove money from everyone but themselves, thereby exacerbating class warfare. This is the joy of democracy.

A progressive income tax defines this idea.[/B]


You clearly know little about politics in other western countries. The idea that people vote for governments which promise more spending goes against what has happened in the last 20 years. This is nothing more than ideological propaganda that makes sense in theory but fails the test of fact.

Tax rates have consistently been cut. You seem to forget that most voters get their income from working and therefore pay tax. It is the middle class that pays most tax. And it is the middle class who determine who governs (although I recognise that it is big business which controls the government of the USA). When taxes have been raised it is because middle class taxpayers have chosen this. Corporations are paying less and less tax all the time. The general trend in the last 20 years has been towards lower taxes.

What obligation does the people of the US have to contribute to foreign countries? What right do these countries have to mine and my fellow's income? Humanitarianism? You mean enforced altruism.

I understand that the US has claim to economic interests with other countries, since this promotes and stimulates economic growth, but these are in our self interest, not moral obligations as you attempt to put it. I would like to see the US halt all military interventions in foreign countries and become more isolationist. The US was not supposed to be an empire, but a country. [/B]


Once again you did not read my post correctly. We weren't debating whether the US is "obligated" to give aid. I was responding to the idea that Bush is a big spender on aid. I clearly pointed out that the USA donates less than it has pledged to and that the USA's percentage of GDP given as aid is very low. This discussion had nothing to do with obligation.

As for the US halting its military activities in other countries. Typical of Americans these days, you seem to not be listening to what the rest of the world is saying. People wish that the USA would stop being a bully. Your foreign military adventures are for the USA's benefit. If you believe otherwise then you have been watching too many propagnada films like "Black Hawk Down". If others benefit from US activities then that is just a by-product of the US pursuing its own interests. The USA doesn't do anything out of altruism.


There are some other attitudes comng through from this post that need to be addressed. Firstly, go and visit the OECD website and see what tax rates are for income earners in the USA compared to other OECD countries. I can tell you this: here in New Zealand the government's tax revenues are lower than the USA's, yet we have a public healthcare system and a state pension for all people over 65. You will find that the USA is actually quite inefficient with its resources. Once you include the compulsory levies covering costs that are included in other countries taxes you will find that the USA is one of the most highly taxed countries in the world - with little to show for it - yet we continue to hear assertion of the superiority of the american way of doing things.

Secondly, your post makes assertions of a right-wing libertarian nature which you seem to think are fact rather than ideology. For instance the idea that tax is theft and that peoples' incomes are their private money is just an opinion. Unlike individual rights, economc activity is a COLLECTIVE endeavour. The whole idea of private wealth is just an ideological premise.

My sister may work the same hours in exactly the same job in a much poorer country. She will be paid less. In a richer country she will be paid more. This is the result of the collectivity of economic activity determining the value of her labour. If she lived on a deserted island she'd earn nothing. She needs the efforts and the capital of society to generate her "private" income.

People may borrow more money which forces up interest rates. She then has to pay more of her "private" income for her mortagage. Others may consume more oil, forcing up how much of her money she has to hand over to fill her car's petrol tank. Wealth is a collective good because tha activities of others determone how much of it we have. Society gives it and society decides how much she keeps. Taxation is merely society taking its share of socially generated resources for collective benefit.

The whole idea that the income generated by a collective endeavour is private money when this money is not privately or individually generated is simply a misnomer.
 
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