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broganlikehogan
New member
can someone with experience give me the 3or6 week dosage clen cycle for women and how much taurine and yohimbine to take each day with it
clen
- Thread starter broganlikehogan
- Start date
broganlikehogan
New member
20mcg tabs
localgirl
New member
I have a clen experience, and it really wasnt that great.
I lost good amount of weight, but gained it all back quickly. had shakes, bad sweats & heart papel.'s. I took it 2 weeks on- and that was the end of it for me. Took 1 capsule tuarine ED w/ it. Never got cramps. Yohimbe bark is suppose to be crap- make sure you get the HCL. So ive heard.
I lost good amount of weight, but gained it all back quickly. had shakes, bad sweats & heart papel.'s. I took it 2 weeks on- and that was the end of it for me. Took 1 capsule tuarine ED w/ it. Never got cramps. Yohimbe bark is suppose to be crap- make sure you get the HCL. So ive heard.
Tatyana
Elite Mentor
Clen will only work for about 2-3 weeks if you take it continuously.
It will also suppress your thyroid gland, so be prepared for rebound when you come off.
It also is cardio-toxic, meaning it may kill heart cells.
Dose, start lower and build up, as your body will adapt quickly and you will have to increase the dose.
It will also suppress your thyroid gland, so be prepared for rebound when you come off.
It also is cardio-toxic, meaning it may kill heart cells.
Dose, start lower and build up, as your body will adapt quickly and you will have to increase the dose.
erika55555
New member
I got some great information on clen from Guardian about a week prior to his passing, here it is. That boy knew a lot!
There are a couple of ways to run it 2 weeks on/off or straight through (i prefer the 2nd). Most people are misinformed about the 2 weeks on/off principle. The whole reason it started was bc people started to realize that after about 2 weeks clen lost its effectiveness (this is why many claim it doesnt work for them as well bc they take it and see nothing after two weeks or so). Studies have shown that at about day 18 clen loses its effectiveness.
This is bc clen is a beta-2 agonist and we have some receptor down regulation going on. So back in the day users would take it for 2 weeks then stop completely and start back up in another 2 weeks in order to upregulate their receptors. Someone got the bright idea that they could take e/c/a during the off weeks to keep the fat loss going. The problem is ephedra is a beta antagonist as well, except it is not specifically a beta-2 so it is hitting all the receptors including the beta-2 which are already downregulated. So using this method is not very effective. U might as well of stayed on clen the whole time. So if u want to run it 2 weeks on/off do not run anything during the off weeks.
I prefer to run clen straight through. This can be accomplished by taking benadryl (50-100mgs) at night (cuz it will make u sleepy during the day) every third week for a week straight. So in other words days 15-21, 36-42, etc. Benadryl is sold as an anti-histamine in the United States, and/or a sleep aid elsewhere in the world. However, Beta receptors are embedded in the cell´s outer phospholipid membrane. The stability of the membrane has a lot to do with the proper function of the receptors. Methylation of the phospholipids is stimulated by the binding of beta agonists to their receptors. Methylated phospholipids are foreign to the body, and when the body recognizes them as foreign, it breaks them down with phospholipase. This changes the structure of the outer membrane which results in desensitization of the beta receptors. On the other hand, agents that inhibit phospholipase slow desensitization.
Cationic ampiphylic drugs are known for their ability to inhibit phospholipase. Benadryl (diphenhydramine) is a cationic ampiphylic drug. Therefore Benadryl slows desensitization of Beta receptors (i.e. Upgrades them) by inhibiting phospholipase , which is the enzyme that breaks down methylated phospholipids, and this action in turn keeps the phospholipid membrane stable, and thus keeps the receptors functioning properly. This will allow you to use clen for much longer and it´ll still have the same effects. Also, since Benadryl is an anti-histamine, and histamines have a direct effect on beta-adrenoreceptors (not just Beta-2´s but all of them), using an anti-histamine will have a direct effect on reducing beta-receptor stimulation, and thus upregulating your beta-receptors.
With all that said my preferred method is with benadryl and I would run the clen for 8 weeks straight.
Here is a dose schedule. I would keep tapering up until you can no longer handle the sides and then either stay at that dose or back down a bit and hold that dose for the remainder of the cycle. I have used 200mcg per day with chemone's stuff.
(For a woman cut the doses in half)
Days 1-4: 25 mcg am / 25mcg pm
Days 5-8: 50 mcg am / 25mcg pm
Days 9-12: 50 mcg am / 50mcg pm
Days 13-16: 75 mcg am / 50 mcg pm
Days 17-20: 75 mcg am / 75mcg pm
Days 21-24: 100 mcg am / 75 mcg pm
Days 25-28: 100 mcg am / 100 mcg pm
Days 29-56: 100mcg am / 100 mcg pm or whatever your max dose is split in 2
1) Take 1g of Taurine with each dose, this will help control cramping and other sides
2) take your temperature in-between doses every couple of days at the same time. u will know if it is working if your core temperature starts raising. ideally u would like to have it about 1 degree higher than normal and no more thann 100 degrees overall (98.6 is normal body temp)
3) take no other stimulants such as caffeine when tapering up. otherwise u will have no idea if it is the clen or caffeine or both that is causing the sides.
4) take your 2nd dose no later than 4pm so u can sleep well at night. i can personally take it b4 bed without issues but then again i can sleep through anything.
5) stacked with t3 is an awesome fat burner. if u want the t3 dose schedule i can give that to u as well but most dont want to mess with their thyroid function. You can take a low dose such as 25-50mcg ed and not have to worry about tapering or u can follow a schedule like this:
Days 1,2: 50mcgs
Days 3,4: 75mcgs
Days 5-18: 100 - 125mcgs
And HERE IS THE CRITICAL STAGE:
The SLOW taper. This is CRITICAL so that TSH levels
are allowed to adapt to the dosage so that there is no crash.
Days 19-22 : 125mcgs (or 100 depends on your max)
Days 23-26 : 100mcgs
Days 27-30: 75mcgs
Days 31-34: 50mcgs
Now, SUPER-SLOW(TSH will be VERY sensitive to ANY T3 now)
Days 35-41 : 37.5mcgs
Days 42-48 : 25 mcgs
Days 49-56 : 12.5 mcgs
6) cardio: low-moderate intensity 5-7X a week, 35-45 minutes
7) low carb diets work best but in any case make sure you go calorie deficient.
8) i also like to run an hrt dose of test to keep all muscle gains. (ignore if woman)
9) your strength in the gym will go down, this is normal. as long as u keep your intensity high and your protein high u should lose little to no muscle.
10) good signs that it is working: u feel hotter than normal almost like hot flashes, increased sweat, increased hunger.
i think that about covers it.
Keep the cals the same for now.
I got a rot so i know what u mean about people weary of your dog.
The article is mostly accurate. It is just the results are not as phenomenal as you might believe. If a man depletes all his estrogen he will not have near the worries a woman will.
Hope and know for fact this will help!
There are a couple of ways to run it 2 weeks on/off or straight through (i prefer the 2nd). Most people are misinformed about the 2 weeks on/off principle. The whole reason it started was bc people started to realize that after about 2 weeks clen lost its effectiveness (this is why many claim it doesnt work for them as well bc they take it and see nothing after two weeks or so). Studies have shown that at about day 18 clen loses its effectiveness.
This is bc clen is a beta-2 agonist and we have some receptor down regulation going on. So back in the day users would take it for 2 weeks then stop completely and start back up in another 2 weeks in order to upregulate their receptors. Someone got the bright idea that they could take e/c/a during the off weeks to keep the fat loss going. The problem is ephedra is a beta antagonist as well, except it is not specifically a beta-2 so it is hitting all the receptors including the beta-2 which are already downregulated. So using this method is not very effective. U might as well of stayed on clen the whole time. So if u want to run it 2 weeks on/off do not run anything during the off weeks.
I prefer to run clen straight through. This can be accomplished by taking benadryl (50-100mgs) at night (cuz it will make u sleepy during the day) every third week for a week straight. So in other words days 15-21, 36-42, etc. Benadryl is sold as an anti-histamine in the United States, and/or a sleep aid elsewhere in the world. However, Beta receptors are embedded in the cell´s outer phospholipid membrane. The stability of the membrane has a lot to do with the proper function of the receptors. Methylation of the phospholipids is stimulated by the binding of beta agonists to their receptors. Methylated phospholipids are foreign to the body, and when the body recognizes them as foreign, it breaks them down with phospholipase. This changes the structure of the outer membrane which results in desensitization of the beta receptors. On the other hand, agents that inhibit phospholipase slow desensitization.
Cationic ampiphylic drugs are known for their ability to inhibit phospholipase. Benadryl (diphenhydramine) is a cationic ampiphylic drug. Therefore Benadryl slows desensitization of Beta receptors (i.e. Upgrades them) by inhibiting phospholipase , which is the enzyme that breaks down methylated phospholipids, and this action in turn keeps the phospholipid membrane stable, and thus keeps the receptors functioning properly. This will allow you to use clen for much longer and it´ll still have the same effects. Also, since Benadryl is an anti-histamine, and histamines have a direct effect on beta-adrenoreceptors (not just Beta-2´s but all of them), using an anti-histamine will have a direct effect on reducing beta-receptor stimulation, and thus upregulating your beta-receptors.
With all that said my preferred method is with benadryl and I would run the clen for 8 weeks straight.
Here is a dose schedule. I would keep tapering up until you can no longer handle the sides and then either stay at that dose or back down a bit and hold that dose for the remainder of the cycle. I have used 200mcg per day with chemone's stuff.
(For a woman cut the doses in half)
Days 1-4: 25 mcg am / 25mcg pm
Days 5-8: 50 mcg am / 25mcg pm
Days 9-12: 50 mcg am / 50mcg pm
Days 13-16: 75 mcg am / 50 mcg pm
Days 17-20: 75 mcg am / 75mcg pm
Days 21-24: 100 mcg am / 75 mcg pm
Days 25-28: 100 mcg am / 100 mcg pm
Days 29-56: 100mcg am / 100 mcg pm or whatever your max dose is split in 2
1) Take 1g of Taurine with each dose, this will help control cramping and other sides
2) take your temperature in-between doses every couple of days at the same time. u will know if it is working if your core temperature starts raising. ideally u would like to have it about 1 degree higher than normal and no more thann 100 degrees overall (98.6 is normal body temp)
3) take no other stimulants such as caffeine when tapering up. otherwise u will have no idea if it is the clen or caffeine or both that is causing the sides.
4) take your 2nd dose no later than 4pm so u can sleep well at night. i can personally take it b4 bed without issues but then again i can sleep through anything.
5) stacked with t3 is an awesome fat burner. if u want the t3 dose schedule i can give that to u as well but most dont want to mess with their thyroid function. You can take a low dose such as 25-50mcg ed and not have to worry about tapering or u can follow a schedule like this:
Days 1,2: 50mcgs
Days 3,4: 75mcgs
Days 5-18: 100 - 125mcgs
And HERE IS THE CRITICAL STAGE:
The SLOW taper. This is CRITICAL so that TSH levels
are allowed to adapt to the dosage so that there is no crash.
Days 19-22 : 125mcgs (or 100 depends on your max)
Days 23-26 : 100mcgs
Days 27-30: 75mcgs
Days 31-34: 50mcgs
Now, SUPER-SLOW(TSH will be VERY sensitive to ANY T3 now)
Days 35-41 : 37.5mcgs
Days 42-48 : 25 mcgs
Days 49-56 : 12.5 mcgs
6) cardio: low-moderate intensity 5-7X a week, 35-45 minutes
7) low carb diets work best but in any case make sure you go calorie deficient.
8) i also like to run an hrt dose of test to keep all muscle gains. (ignore if woman)
9) your strength in the gym will go down, this is normal. as long as u keep your intensity high and your protein high u should lose little to no muscle.
10) good signs that it is working: u feel hotter than normal almost like hot flashes, increased sweat, increased hunger.
i think that about covers it.
Keep the cals the same for now.
I got a rot so i know what u mean about people weary of your dog.
The article is mostly accurate. It is just the results are not as phenomenal as you might believe. If a man depletes all his estrogen he will not have near the worries a woman will.
Hope and know for fact this will help!
Bikini Mod
New member
IMHO Clen is garbage. There is nothing that clen does that an OTC E/C/A stack won't do.
I would disagree clen has a slight anabolic affect to it in my experince. It is only slight but for women slight is often enough. I have tried contest preps with it and without it. I always end up sharper with it.
slat1
New member
I am not a big fan of clen. I can get the same results just keeping my diet really tight.
That said we all experiment. Here is the information I kept in mind:
What is Clenbuterol?
Clenbuterol is a beta-2 agonist and is used in many countries as a broncodilator
for the treatment of asthma. Because of it's long half life, clenbuterol is not
FDA approved for medical use. It is a central nervous system stimulant and acts
like adrenaline. It shares many of the same side effects as other CNS stimulants
like ephedrine. Contrary to popular belief, Clenbuterol has a half life of 35
hours and not 48 hours.
Dosing and Cycling
Clenbuterol comes in 20mcg tablets, although it is also available in syrup, pump
and injectable form. It's also available as a powder in some areas. Doses are
very dependent on how well the user responds to the side effects, but somewhere
in the range of 4-8 tablets per day for men and 2-4 tablets a day for women is
most common. Clenbuterol loses its thermogenic effects after around 8 weeks when
body temperature drops back to normal. Its anabolic/anti-catabolic properties
fade away at around the 18 day mark. Taking the long half life into
consideration, the most effective way of cycling clen is 2 weeks on/ 2 weeks off
for no more than 12 weeks. Ephedrine or Yohimbine can be used in the off weeks.
Clenbuterol vs Ephedrine vs DNP
Ephedrine will raise metabolic levels by about 2-3 percent and 200mg of DNP
raises metabolic levels by about 30 percent. Clenbuterol raises metabolic levels
about 10 percent and it can raise body temperature several degrees.
DNP is by far the most effective fat burner but many people will never use it
because of the risks associated with it. It also offers no anti-catabolic
benefit. Although it does have anti-catabolic effect, ephedrine's short
half-life prevents it from being all that effective.
As far as side effects, Clenbuterol's are certainly milder than DNP's, and some
would even say milder than an ECA stack. There is no ECA-style crash on
Clenbuterol and many users find it easier on the prostate and sex drive. This
may in part be due to the fact that Clen is generally used for only 2 weeks at a
time.
Side effects
NAUSEA
NERVOUSNESS
DIZZINESS
DROWSINESS
DRY MOUTH
FACIAL FLUSHING
HEADACHE
HEARTBURN
INCREASED BLOOD PRESSURE
INCREASED SWEATING
INSOMNIA
LIGHTHEADEDNESS
MUSCLE CRAMPS
TREMORS
VOMITING
CHEST PAIN
The most significant side effects are muscle cramps, nervousness, headaches, and
increased blood pressure.
Muscle cramps can be avoided by drinking 1.5-2 gallons of water and consuming
bananas and oranges or supplementing with potassium tablets at 200-400mg a
day taken before bed on an empty stomach. Taurine at 3-5grams is a necessity in
minimizing cramps.
Headaches can easily be avoided with Tylenol Extra Strength taking at the first
signs of a headache.
Common Uses
Post-Cycle Therapy: Clen is used post cycle to aid in recovery. It allows the
user to continue eating large amounts of food, without worrying about adding
body fat. It also helps the user maintain more of his strength as well as his
intensity in the gym. Diet: Roughly the same as on cycle.
Fat loss: The most popular use for Clen, it also increases muscle hardness,
vascularity, strength and size on a caloric deficit. For the most significant
fat loss, Clen can be stacked with T3. Diet: A high protein(1.5g per lb of
bodyweight), moderate carb(0.5g to 1g per lb of bodyweight), low fat diet(0.25g
per lb of bodyweight) seems to work best with Clen.
Alternative to Steroids: Clenbuterol has mild steroid-like properties and can be
used by non-AS using bodybuilder to increase LBM as well as strength and muscle
hardness. Diet: A moderate carb, high protein, moderate fat diet work well.
Stimulant/Performance Enhancement: It can be used as a stimulant, but an ECA
stack may be a better choice because of it's much shorter half-life. Diet: To
take full advantage of the stimulatory effects of Clen, carbohydrates must be
included in the diet. Ketogenic diets do not work well in this case.
Precautions: Is Clen for you?
The same precautions that apply to Ephedrine must be applied to Clen, although
some people find ECA stacks are harsher than Clen. It should not be stacked
with other CNS stimulants such as Ephedrine and Yohimbine. These combinations
are unnecessary and potentially dangerous. Caffeine can be used in moderation
before a workout for an extra quick. burst of energy.
A word on Ketotifen
Ketotifen is safe antihistamine used extensively some European countries to
treat asthma and allergies. It can up regulate beta-2-receptors that Clen down
regulates. Basically, it allows users to extend their use of Clen for 6-8 weeks
at a time. 2-3mg a day is ideal, 10mg as found in "superclen" can make users
extremely drowsy. It also increases the effectiveness of Clen so doses must be
adjusted accordingly. The downfall of this drug is its ability to induce
extreme hunger is some people, which is not a desirable state to be in when
dieting.
Cycling Clenbuterol
Most users that report bad side effects and discontinue use are those who use
high doses right at the start of the cycle. The worst side effects occur within
the first 3-4 days of use.
A first time user should not exceed 40mcg the first day. Increase by one tab
until the side effects are not tolerable
Example of a first cycle:
Day1: 20mcg
Day2: 40mcg
Day3: 60mcg
Day4: 80mcg
Day5: 80mcg(Note: Increase the dose only when the side effects are tolerable)
Day6-Day12: 100mcg
Day13: 80 mcg (Tapering is not necessary, but it helps some users get back to
normal gradually)
Day14: 60 mcgs
Day15: off
Day16: off
Day 17: ECA/ NYC stack
Example of a second cycle:
Day1: 60mcg
Day2: 80mcg
Day3: 80mcg
Day4: 100mcg
Day5: 100mcg
Day6-Day12: 120mcg
Day13: 100 mcg
Day14: 80 mcgs
Day15: off
Day16: off
Day 17: ECA/ NYC stack
What else do I need to know?
Taurine MUST be used with Clen at 3-5g daily. Clenbuterol depletes taurine
levels in the liver which stops the conversion of T4 to T3 in the liver.
Taurine allows the user to avoid the dreaded rebound effect and painful muscle
cramps. It's a must with Clen.
Clenbuterol should not be taken too close to a workout. It can interfere with
your breathing and complete ruin your workout. When doing cardio, it's
advisable to stay at a consistent pace and avoid HIIT style routines.
Do not take Clen Past 4pm and drink plenty of water; 1.5-2 gallons a day.
That said we all experiment. Here is the information I kept in mind:
What is Clenbuterol?
Clenbuterol is a beta-2 agonist and is used in many countries as a broncodilator
for the treatment of asthma. Because of it's long half life, clenbuterol is not
FDA approved for medical use. It is a central nervous system stimulant and acts
like adrenaline. It shares many of the same side effects as other CNS stimulants
like ephedrine. Contrary to popular belief, Clenbuterol has a half life of 35
hours and not 48 hours.
Dosing and Cycling
Clenbuterol comes in 20mcg tablets, although it is also available in syrup, pump
and injectable form. It's also available as a powder in some areas. Doses are
very dependent on how well the user responds to the side effects, but somewhere
in the range of 4-8 tablets per day for men and 2-4 tablets a day for women is
most common. Clenbuterol loses its thermogenic effects after around 8 weeks when
body temperature drops back to normal. Its anabolic/anti-catabolic properties
fade away at around the 18 day mark. Taking the long half life into
consideration, the most effective way of cycling clen is 2 weeks on/ 2 weeks off
for no more than 12 weeks. Ephedrine or Yohimbine can be used in the off weeks.
Clenbuterol vs Ephedrine vs DNP
Ephedrine will raise metabolic levels by about 2-3 percent and 200mg of DNP
raises metabolic levels by about 30 percent. Clenbuterol raises metabolic levels
about 10 percent and it can raise body temperature several degrees.
DNP is by far the most effective fat burner but many people will never use it
because of the risks associated with it. It also offers no anti-catabolic
benefit. Although it does have anti-catabolic effect, ephedrine's short
half-life prevents it from being all that effective.
As far as side effects, Clenbuterol's are certainly milder than DNP's, and some
would even say milder than an ECA stack. There is no ECA-style crash on
Clenbuterol and many users find it easier on the prostate and sex drive. This
may in part be due to the fact that Clen is generally used for only 2 weeks at a
time.
Side effects
NAUSEA
NERVOUSNESS
DIZZINESS
DROWSINESS
DRY MOUTH
FACIAL FLUSHING
HEADACHE
HEARTBURN
INCREASED BLOOD PRESSURE
INCREASED SWEATING
INSOMNIA
LIGHTHEADEDNESS
MUSCLE CRAMPS
TREMORS
VOMITING
CHEST PAIN
The most significant side effects are muscle cramps, nervousness, headaches, and
increased blood pressure.
Muscle cramps can be avoided by drinking 1.5-2 gallons of water and consuming
bananas and oranges or supplementing with potassium tablets at 200-400mg a
day taken before bed on an empty stomach. Taurine at 3-5grams is a necessity in
minimizing cramps.
Headaches can easily be avoided with Tylenol Extra Strength taking at the first
signs of a headache.
Common Uses
Post-Cycle Therapy: Clen is used post cycle to aid in recovery. It allows the
user to continue eating large amounts of food, without worrying about adding
body fat. It also helps the user maintain more of his strength as well as his
intensity in the gym. Diet: Roughly the same as on cycle.
Fat loss: The most popular use for Clen, it also increases muscle hardness,
vascularity, strength and size on a caloric deficit. For the most significant
fat loss, Clen can be stacked with T3. Diet: A high protein(1.5g per lb of
bodyweight), moderate carb(0.5g to 1g per lb of bodyweight), low fat diet(0.25g
per lb of bodyweight) seems to work best with Clen.
Alternative to Steroids: Clenbuterol has mild steroid-like properties and can be
used by non-AS using bodybuilder to increase LBM as well as strength and muscle
hardness. Diet: A moderate carb, high protein, moderate fat diet work well.
Stimulant/Performance Enhancement: It can be used as a stimulant, but an ECA
stack may be a better choice because of it's much shorter half-life. Diet: To
take full advantage of the stimulatory effects of Clen, carbohydrates must be
included in the diet. Ketogenic diets do not work well in this case.
Precautions: Is Clen for you?
The same precautions that apply to Ephedrine must be applied to Clen, although
some people find ECA stacks are harsher than Clen. It should not be stacked
with other CNS stimulants such as Ephedrine and Yohimbine. These combinations
are unnecessary and potentially dangerous. Caffeine can be used in moderation
before a workout for an extra quick. burst of energy.
A word on Ketotifen
Ketotifen is safe antihistamine used extensively some European countries to
treat asthma and allergies. It can up regulate beta-2-receptors that Clen down
regulates. Basically, it allows users to extend their use of Clen for 6-8 weeks
at a time. 2-3mg a day is ideal, 10mg as found in "superclen" can make users
extremely drowsy. It also increases the effectiveness of Clen so doses must be
adjusted accordingly. The downfall of this drug is its ability to induce
extreme hunger is some people, which is not a desirable state to be in when
dieting.
Cycling Clenbuterol
Most users that report bad side effects and discontinue use are those who use
high doses right at the start of the cycle. The worst side effects occur within
the first 3-4 days of use.
A first time user should not exceed 40mcg the first day. Increase by one tab
until the side effects are not tolerable
Example of a first cycle:
Day1: 20mcg
Day2: 40mcg
Day3: 60mcg
Day4: 80mcg
Day5: 80mcg(Note: Increase the dose only when the side effects are tolerable)
Day6-Day12: 100mcg
Day13: 80 mcg (Tapering is not necessary, but it helps some users get back to
normal gradually)
Day14: 60 mcgs
Day15: off
Day16: off
Day 17: ECA/ NYC stack
Example of a second cycle:
Day1: 60mcg
Day2: 80mcg
Day3: 80mcg
Day4: 100mcg
Day5: 100mcg
Day6-Day12: 120mcg
Day13: 100 mcg
Day14: 80 mcgs
Day15: off
Day16: off
Day 17: ECA/ NYC stack
What else do I need to know?
Taurine MUST be used with Clen at 3-5g daily. Clenbuterol depletes taurine
levels in the liver which stops the conversion of T4 to T3 in the liver.
Taurine allows the user to avoid the dreaded rebound effect and painful muscle
cramps. It's a must with Clen.
Clenbuterol should not be taken too close to a workout. It can interfere with
your breathing and complete ruin your workout. When doing cardio, it's
advisable to stay at a consistent pace and avoid HIIT style routines.
Do not take Clen Past 4pm and drink plenty of water; 1.5-2 gallons a day.
Bikini Mod
New member
Different agents (even food) have different effects in different bodies. I suppose that one doesn't know until they try. From all the people that I knew back in the day, our experiences were the same. Clen was crap. But that doesn't mean that somebody else won't have an altogether different experience.
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