CKD for bulking and strength?

[killroy70]

I've been reading a lot of threads regarding the benefits and drawbacks to CKD's. Many of the drawbacks are associated with one lowering his/her metabolism through the low calorie 5 day per week diet. I have read Dr. Mauro Dipasquale's Metabolic Diet and Anabolic Solution books, and he advocates a CKD diet for all stages of training: cutting, bulking, and strength phases. My questions are:

1) Would it be adviseable to use a CKD while bulking, assuming the person has no problem injesting that much fat during the day? The reason I ask is that CKD proponents state that calories burned come primarily from fat, so when lifting/performing cardio during one's weekly training, wouldn't that person end up gaining more muscle vs. fat while on a CKD?

2) Would using a CKD be adviseable for someone involved in training for strength as well as hypertrophy? I ask this because of the assertion that the weekend carb up causes a substantial increase in the body's anabolic hormones, which should in turn translate into greater strength in the weight room. I was thinking about this with regards to something like a Westside Powerlifting routine, where one would lift heavy on monday and tuesday, and work speed and lighter weights on thursday and friday?

I am currently in my 4th week of a CKD. This is my first such venture into this type of dieting. I'm 6'2", approx 12% bf, and wieght 192 lbs (currently, started out weighing 198). The transition from a "normal" diet (50C 30P 20F) was extremely easy, energy levels have been high and lifts have been going nicely. Also, I find eating in the CKD confines rather easy.

Finally, my goals, as with most people are to lean out and gain mass. Now, this is supposed to be only possible while juicing, and this is the reason I started a CKD. According to Dr. Pasquale, gaining lean mass while simultaneously losing bodyfat is optimized while using a CKD. Overall, 205-215 lbs at single digit bodyfat would be ideal. This summer I trained westside style powerlifting and have switched to HST (over the course of the last 5 weeks).

Sorry for the long post!! Any help with any of my inquiries would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again

 

[Ceebs]

I don't see why not - in BodyOpus, Duchaine purported that glycogen supercompensation during the carb up was highly anabolic. (Straight up keto is not efficient for bulking, however, due to low insulin levels.) You might want to increase the frequency of carb ups if you're dead set on bulking with a CKD, and not seeing the results you want as quickly as you want.

 

[killroy70]

more frequent refeeds?

Ceebs, thanks for the reply. What kind of frequency would you recommend for refeeds during bulking? 3 days on CKD, 1 refeed, 3 on, 1 refeed...etc..? It's funny, 3 weeks into the CKD, I set my personal lifetime best 5 RM in the bench press. I have NEVER been a good bencher, and my new record is still pathetic compared to my other lifts, but still, the weight was flying off my chest monday morning after carbing up. That's one of the reasons I was pondering using this type diet, while manipulating calories, for cutting, strength, as well as bulking cycles. Should be an intesting experiment if nothing more

 

[Cobin]

I think you got something here killroy, You plan on eating no carbs for a few days and what are you x bodyweight to get the calorie makeup? Ex, I am 152 what would I times my weight by to get the calories. And eating those cals from protein and fat? Do you up the calories on refreed days or what? ALso how many g of carbs do you plan on eating on refreed days?


Thanks

 

[Ceebs]

Re: more frequent refeeds?

Ceebs, thanks for the reply. What kind of frequency would you recommend for refeeds during bulking

Depends on your training frequency and intensity. The purpose of the carb up on a hypocaloric CKD is to replenish intramuscular glycogen stores lost during training when you're ketogenic, and the purpose of training while dieting in the first place is to lose as little muscle as possible while carving off the bodyfat. On a hypercaloric CKD, however, you'd be able to train harder due to fuel availabilities (more calories = more expendable energy), recover better, and muscle loss should be nil.

So the answer is, keep a log of your lifts, and when you feel yourself start to bonk, that's the time you should carb up. If you hit every bodypart once a week, carb up once a week. If you incorporate a lot of compound movements in your workout, you're hitting multiple bodyparts multiple times, blah blah, so you should carb up more often. Care to post your training schedule?

 

[killroy70]

training schedule for CKD

Putting together a training program to coincide with my planned CKD program has been a real pain. The main reason for the problems is that nearly every weekend I travel, and many times, depending on where and to what function, eating low carb is impossible. However, high carbing on the weekend is ideal for me. Now, why is this a problem? Because, due to an insane work schedule, the only time I can train on friday is friday morning around 8 a.m. I'm torn between 2 things and right now am not sure which road to take:

1) Begin 30-48 hour carb load, starting post workout friday a.m., ending saturday afternoon/evening.

2) Treat friday as a "TKD" day to optimize the post workout glycogen replenishment, and begin full weekend carb up saturday morning.

I know that #1 sounds better with regards to sticking to a CKD schedule; however, due to my busy weekend schedule, I can't train until monday morning. Basically, due to the fact that I'm going to try to prioritize my CKD as strength/hypertrophy first, fat loss second (a close second!), I'm worried about the ramafications of eating low carb on sunday with regards to my workout intensity on Monday.

Should I be worried? Sundays do not involve anything physically demanding, so I'm assuming that I wouldn't be burning up too much of my stored glycogen. I'm just not sure as to which road to take. Monday-friday, my schedule is great for training and planning meals, but then the weekend causes a whole slew of problems. Any insight????

 

[killroy70]

training program

OK, I'm considering 2 options for my training program.

Option 1: Standard CKD training split
Monday: Upper body - heavy
Bench press 2x5, 2x3
DB row 2x5, 2x3
Weighted Dips: 3x5
Weighted chins: 3x5
Seated overhead barbell press: 2x5
Bent over rear delt raise: 2x5
Lying tricep extensions: 2x6
Barbell curl: 2x6

Tuesday: Lower body
Squat: 8,6,4,4
Glute/ham raise: 3x5
Ab pulldowns: 3x10
Calf raise: 2x15
Straight leg deadlifts: 2x6
Weighted reverse crunch: 2x10

Wed/thursday: cardio

Friday: Whole body circuit, high reps, repeat circuit for 1-1.5 hours or until fatigued


Option #2: HST

3 whole body on monday, wednesday, and friday

Workout:
Squat 6,5,4
Glute ham raise 2x6
Bench press 2x5,3
DB row 2x5, 3
Weighted dips 2x5
Weighted chins 2x5
Overhead press 2x5
rear delt raise 2x5
Lying tricep exension 2x6
Barbell curls 2x6
AB pulldowns 1x10
Reverse crunch 1x10

 

[MrMakaveli]

Alot of this is answered in Lyle's Ketogenic diet book.

Basically, insulin is ESSENTIAL to building muscle, think about how many days are being wasted if you use a ckd for bulking.

And if you increase the calories during the week if fat is burned it wont be enough to prevent the extra fat from being stored and if you increase protein it wouldnt be ketogenic any more.

Just keep majority of carbs in the morning (insulin sensitivity is better then) and use ALA.

I did somthing like this too with the anabolic diet but I didnt really notice alot of gains and gave up. If you decide to actually try it keep us updated, It would be very interesting.

Good luck

 

[killroy70]

strength on CKD

I understand that glycogen is necessary for strength gains. As I stated, my goal was to attempt to gain lean mass and minimize fat gain while using a higher calorie CKD. Yes, some excess calories would go towards fat. And as for an increase in protein kicking me out of ketosis, I would not increase protein to any more than 1 gram per pound of LBM up to 1 gram per pound of body weight. This has been suggested by Mauro Dipasquale. I'm wondering why it would so difficult to add lean mass if one:

*eats higher than maintenance calories
*Plans training around carb loading to maximize strength gains and LBM gains

As I've been tinking with my program, I was thinking of using the Westside system of training (which I used this past summer). The Westside system is a conjugated periodization system which incorporates maximal strength, hypertrophy, and power into each minicycle, each aspect worked every week.

So, after a 48 hour carb load (not going with 24 hour carb load to maximize strength and hypertrophy, hopefully minimizing fat gain), I would peform 2 days of successive maximal strength day (monday and tuesday). Thursday and friday would be what Westsiders call my "dynamic days," where I would work speed and power (light weights using accomodating resistance, explosive reps).

Now, eating above mainteance calories while strength training will undoubtably add both muscle and fat. I was thinking that by using a CKD, fat gain would be minimized, as more fat would be burned during workouts and limited cardio. My maintance calories are around 3000 (I'm 6'2", 195 lbs, 12% bf). So, I would only up them around 500 calories for the first week and adjust from there.

So, as we all know, glycogen is necessary to produce strength gains, which usually translate into hypertrophy gains. So, by training hard the 2 days after a serious weekend of carb loading, perhaps using creatine, I'm curious to see what happens.

I'm also very interested in the supposed anabolic effects of the weekend carb load in allowing one to lift heavier weights on the first day or 2 following the carb load. What do you think? I'll be sure to keep the list posted on my progress.

As always, if anyone has any input into what I'm talking about here, I'd LOVE to hear it!! Thanks again

 

[Kid Dynamite]

Glycogen is not neccesary to provide strength gains (it makes it easier to train, etc), as sometimes nuero adaptions take place, the muscle functions better and you're stronger. I've used a CKD and gotten stronger while losing fat and basically maintaining size, and I've used it and gained muscle + fat, but I was eating a ton everyday and carbing up like mad for 2 1/2 days. Don't try to chase muscle gain and fat loss at the same time, no matter what anyone says. It might work, but it's a slow process.
If I remember right, the way you could best bulk on a ckd is Fri night - Sun at 6pm eat carbs, none on Mon-Tue, Wed. morning take in up to 200g (I think) of high gi carbs, thur and fri no carbs, repeat. That's if I remember right, I've never tried it.