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Can you get super big and strong without the juice?!?
- Thread starter Grantsdu
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brianmincher
New member
depends upon your definition of super big and strong. E-mail me.
I've used westside for quite some time and have posted some pretty good numbers using only over the counter supplements. All my lifts are from APA and APF meets. I'm 34 now and can still crank out some good numbers as we will hopefully see in June. As far as what determines how big and strong you get, the answer is looking you right in the mirror every day. Don't slack or miss workouts. Always strive for perfect form and technique. Don't sacrifice either for heavier weight. The heavier weight will come in time. Read, read and read some more. There is so much info out there for the lifter. I have three inch thick notebooks at home with nothing but westside articles by louie simmons and dave tate. Plus I have a stack that I haven't even filed yet. Go to deepsquatter.com and elitefitnesssystems.com for articles to read. I've come a long way from the 14 year old who used to sneak into his brothers room to lift the old plastic covered concrete weights to where I am now. Whether a person chooses to use other "supplements" or not is his business. I will not judge him/her either way. But stay natural as long as you can.
By the way, in case you were wondering what my lifts were:
Squat - 705
Bench- 465
Deadlift - 622
By the way, in case you were wondering what my lifts were:
Squat - 705
Bench- 465
Deadlift - 622
powerlifterjay
New member
You dam right you can get strong as hell naturally. No question. But genitcs plays a huge roll in what size your gonna be. I will never be a superheavy weigh lifter. I am just not naturally big enough. People like screwball and big okie and i believe endpoint is a biggin, those guys naturally will ift more then you but doesnt mean they will be better pound for pound. Focus on strength and dont worry about size, cause it will come when its time. It better to be stronger then you are big , then it is to be big and not strong enough for your size. You agree?
Of course you can dude it all depends on how much you want to put into your training. I have been lifting for a long time almost 10 years and have only used 2 week ass cycles a long time ago that probably hurt me more thatn helped me. Hell , in the last 4 months alone i have put over 60 lbs on my deadlift , 50 0n my bench and at least 60 on my squat just by training hard and smart. Juice is not the save all end all. I have been considering trying it again but with the types of gains i'm getting without it i think that i would be selling myself short. By December I know that i will put another 50 on my bench ,dead ,and squat each.
Anyway , Dont sell yourself short , if you want it bad enough and train like it it will come.
Anyway , Dont sell yourself short , if you want it bad enough and train like it it will come.
PRISION...No I am not suggesting anybody go there lol however there are some big and strong prisioners that eat 3 crappy low protein meals a day if that and they probably don't have access to steriods either YET they produce some big and strong people. Why? It could be beacuse training is one of the only positive activities in their lives so a lot of it is how badly that you want it. Of course there are genetic limitations. Woody Allen will never be as big as Kaz of course!
Most people think that I'm talking crap when I tell them about my training partner, who has been training with me for 2 years now. When he joined my training group, he was totally new to the iron game, coming from a cross-country running background. At that time he weighed a very skinny 127lb.
Over the last two years he has transformed himself into a massive bulging heap of muscles tipping the scales at 215lb! All this was done while he trained mostly Westside with me and taking NO ROIDS and virtually NO SUPPLEMENTS either! All he did was train like a man posessed and eat lots and lots of good food. Get this: this dude added nearly a 100 pounds of lean mass in two years, completely naturally. This is a 70 percent increase in mass! He makes a living out of personal training and has actually given up on trying to convince his colleagues that he is totally clean. Nowadays when people say to him that he cannot possibly be clean he just shurgs it off and says nothing more. His currents total is just under 1400lb which was enough to earn him last year's provincial championship title in our drug-tested (IPF) federation.
I don't know if he is just a freak of nature or something but I don't think so because most of the guys that train with me are clean and the majority of them are pretty big and make consistent (even if sometimes slow) gains. BTW I've personally not touched any roids for going on 3 years now and I am bigger and stronger than ever. I often get unsolicited comments from complete strangers saying that I'm the biggest person they've ever seen. I weigh a reasonably hard (I'd say 19% b/f) 350lb at 6 feet 6 inches and my current total (hopefully to be eclipsed substantially in June) is 1832lb.
Please don't see this post as me trying to blow my own horn, which it isn't. I'm sure my partner had much more input into his gains than I did. Hell, I only helped where I can and gave him advice. All I'm saying to the guys that are training naturally is: It is much harder and the temptation of quick chemical gains will always be there, but just push yourself as hard as you can and the gains WILL come.
Arnie
Over the last two years he has transformed himself into a massive bulging heap of muscles tipping the scales at 215lb! All this was done while he trained mostly Westside with me and taking NO ROIDS and virtually NO SUPPLEMENTS either! All he did was train like a man posessed and eat lots and lots of good food. Get this: this dude added nearly a 100 pounds of lean mass in two years, completely naturally. This is a 70 percent increase in mass! He makes a living out of personal training and has actually given up on trying to convince his colleagues that he is totally clean. Nowadays when people say to him that he cannot possibly be clean he just shurgs it off and says nothing more. His currents total is just under 1400lb which was enough to earn him last year's provincial championship title in our drug-tested (IPF) federation.
I don't know if he is just a freak of nature or something but I don't think so because most of the guys that train with me are clean and the majority of them are pretty big and make consistent (even if sometimes slow) gains. BTW I've personally not touched any roids for going on 3 years now and I am bigger and stronger than ever. I often get unsolicited comments from complete strangers saying that I'm the biggest person they've ever seen. I weigh a reasonably hard (I'd say 19% b/f) 350lb at 6 feet 6 inches and my current total (hopefully to be eclipsed substantially in June) is 1832lb.
Please don't see this post as me trying to blow my own horn, which it isn't. I'm sure my partner had much more input into his gains than I did. Hell, I only helped where I can and gave him advice. All I'm saying to the guys that are training naturally is: It is much harder and the temptation of quick chemical gains will always be there, but just push yourself as hard as you can and the gains WILL come.
Arnie
Most definitely
I'm 35 now, and have made the best gains in my life, no juice, in the past two years by absolute strict adherence to two things:
Form, and sleep.
I've never fooled with 1RM stuff out of fear of injury, but my sets of three are quite good for my size, I think.
Discipline. It's what the roid boyz lack.
I'm 35 now, and have made the best gains in my life, no juice, in the past two years by absolute strict adherence to two things:
Form, and sleep.
I've never fooled with 1RM stuff out of fear of injury, but my sets of three are quite good for my size, I think.
Discipline. It's what the roid boyz lack.
You most definately can. I doubled my bodysize in about 7 years totally natural!!!
B True
B True
mjollnir
WHy would you say the "roid boys" don't have discipline?? I trained natural for a long time with pretty good results. I am no longer natural because I chose to goto another level -- does this really make me undisciplined. I train my ass off, just like i did before. I will tell you this, most guys that have never used think that roids will instantly make you strong. I use to think the same. Honestly, they work about 1/2 as good as you think. I will not lie and say they don't work, because they do. There are other guys on this board that can attest to this. They are not magic.
WHy would you say the "roid boys" don't have discipline?? I trained natural for a long time with pretty good results. I am no longer natural because I chose to goto another level -- does this really make me undisciplined. I train my ass off, just like i did before. I will tell you this, most guys that have never used think that roids will instantly make you strong. I use to think the same. Honestly, they work about 1/2 as good as you think. I will not lie and say they don't work, because they do. There are other guys on this board that can attest to this. They are not magic.
1-dawg: Heck of a post!!!!
B True
B True
I do work hard in the gym but maybe i'm not working hard enough or maybe I'm just going at it in the wrong way. I have never tried Westside but there more I hear about it the more I want too. The only gains I have gained from lifting are huge pecks. I work the hell out of my arms but with little success. Yes, I have some mass there but nothing like my cheast. I don't know if i'm not eating right or what but somethings not right. I weighted 125 in high school my senior year. I have only gained 10 pounds 3 years later. Somethings wrong here!!!!
brianmincher
New member
1-dawg,
you hit the nail on the head. I have said something similar on here before. Gear helps, but not nearly as much as a clean person thinks it does. I thought before that it was as simple as take the shot and turn into a freak. Not so.
mjollnir,
Discipline? Read my posts. Come train with me. Quit talking out of your ass about shit you don't understand.
B
you hit the nail on the head. I have said something similar on here before. Gear helps, but not nearly as much as a clean person thinks it does. I thought before that it was as simple as take the shot and turn into a freak. Not so.
mjollnir,
Discipline? Read my posts. Come train with me. Quit talking out of your ass about shit you don't understand.
B
Deciever
New member
hmm you only gained 10 lbs in 3 years.. def. something wrong here.. maybe your undereating / over training? could be some hormonal imbalance if your training and eating correctly but not gaining. Most people experiance great gains in their first year... i for example went from 95lbs, 135 lbs in a yer and half (i attribute some of that weight to growing in height though). There could be many reasons why you have such little gains...
btw, did you strength go up , or did you relatively make no progress at all?
btw, did you strength go up , or did you relatively make no progress at all?
My strgenth went way up!! I think i was benching somewhere around 220 or so but that wasn't pause. I pause 275 now. I haven't gained in my legs but I never work them. I didn't lift for about a year and a half after I graduated. The rest of the time I just kinda lifted on and off. I have been Lifting hard for about 7 to 8 months now. Maybe I just haven't given myself enough time to gain but I thought i would have put on weight by now!!!
Puh-leez
I understand the use of steroids and the mindset behind quite well, thanks.
Maybe I should have been more clear:
Philosophically, from my viewpoint, taking steroids is the first step in divorcing oneself from the strictest discipline in lifting. It is no longer you and the weights, it becomes a partnership of (you+juice)+weights. All gains or 'progress' are the result of an (IMHO) unnecessary third party, not of you and you alone.
It is a breakdown, fundamentally, in mental discipline, not necessarily the physical discipline required in any athletic endeavor. I have seen time and again the psychological dependance that develops in users of roids, and understand that it becomes a crutch and, eventually, an excuse.
Again, it's a philosophical difference: I prefer to see how strong/flexible/fast/whatever I can get without resorting to any drug. Others don't. That represents to me a lack of mental discipline.
YMMV
brianmincher said:
I understand the use of steroids and the mindset behind quite well, thanks.
Maybe I should have been more clear:
Philosophically, from my viewpoint, taking steroids is the first step in divorcing oneself from the strictest discipline in lifting. It is no longer you and the weights, it becomes a partnership of (you+juice)+weights. All gains or 'progress' are the result of an (IMHO) unnecessary third party, not of you and you alone.
It is a breakdown, fundamentally, in mental discipline, not necessarily the physical discipline required in any athletic endeavor. I have seen time and again the psychological dependance that develops in users of roids, and understand that it becomes a crutch and, eventually, an excuse.
Again, it's a philosophical difference: I prefer to see how strong/flexible/fast/whatever I can get without resorting to any drug. Others don't. That represents to me a lack of mental discipline.
YMMV
brianmincher
New member
Let me take a wild shot in the dark here. You don't like bench shirts, and squat suits either.
Your comments about a lack of discipline are offensive. You don't know any of us on this board, but a lot of us know each other. There is not a more dedicated group of people on the planet. These guys sweat, bleed and puke for no money, no fame, and very little recognition. Read my post about benching within 2 weeks of leaving the hospital, I walked into the weightroom on a cane!!! You ever do that?
What numbers have you managed to put up against the weight all on your own by the way? And at what meet might the members of this board be able to see you post these numbers? And before you answer I don't care if you squat 200 or 800, I respect guys that bust their ass, whatever thier lifts are, but you are not showing respect to others, and I don't think that is too cool.
B
Your comments about a lack of discipline are offensive. You don't know any of us on this board, but a lot of us know each other. There is not a more dedicated group of people on the planet. These guys sweat, bleed and puke for no money, no fame, and very little recognition. Read my post about benching within 2 weeks of leaving the hospital, I walked into the weightroom on a cane!!! You ever do that?
What numbers have you managed to put up against the weight all on your own by the way? And at what meet might the members of this board be able to see you post these numbers? And before you answer I don't care if you squat 200 or 800, I respect guys that bust their ass, whatever thier lifts are, but you are not showing respect to others, and I don't think that is too cool.
B
"They are not consumed internally, and have no physiological interaction with the human body. "
Crap, I guess I should stop eating then, lol
Just kidding.
To be perfectly honest I have to say I do agree with Mjollnir on some points, but I'd rather not get into this. I have great respect for Brian and most lifters here.
-Zulu
Crap, I guess I should stop eating then, lol
Just kidding. To be perfectly honest I have to say I do agree with Mjollnir on some points, but I'd rather not get into this. I have great respect for Brian and most lifters here.
-Zulu
ironpipes47
New member
well i cant say i like bench shirts and squat suits either, but then again ive never tryed them. the last 2 meets ive been to my weight class has been full of kids that own those things. now im only in high school to. but anyways i love it when i beat those kids with all there fancy stuff. i wear my deckerville football shorts and my deckerville football cut off and my velcrow shows. by the way i play for deckerville football, as a half back and corner. but if you want to use the suits and shirts then im ok with that. maybe i should buy. how much they cost?
mjollnir -- you don't even lift in meets?? WTF!!!! How in the hell can you give advice on powerlifting when you are not even doing it? BTW, those lifts you mentioned, while they are ok, are not that great for a drug free lifter. You really can't be working that hard if those are your lifts. Some of the gusy that train with me in the garage are clean, and that's cool -- I have no problem with that. I respect them because they are their everyday working hard and helping the others. Their are only 2 rules in my garage for people to be allowed to stay - bust your ass and help your partners get strong. You are really portraying yourself as an idiot.
I don't claim to be by any means an expert....but I do dish out advice occasionally and try to helpful.
I guess I should stop because I don't (and never will) compete in meets??
I guess I should also stop giving advice because my total is still extremely small?
What kind of attitude is that 1-dawg??
-Zulu
I guess I should stop because I don't (and never will) compete in meets??
I guess I should also stop giving advice because my total is still extremely small?
What kind of attitude is that 1-dawg??
-Zulu
brianmincher
New member
I think I am just going to let 1-dawg speak for me on this thread.
This is not going to get anywhere, and is just pissing me off. Raw, natural, I am too good to compete against others people who look down on those who have the stones to put it on the line and compete, are not worth the time and energy I have spent here.
I guess I am just not disciplined enough to do the hard work necessary to continue on this thread. I am just going to take my sensitive sensibilities and go home and whimper.
I wish you knew me.
B
This is not going to get anywhere, and is just pissing me off. Raw, natural, I am too good to compete against others people who look down on those who have the stones to put it on the line and compete, are not worth the time and energy I have spent here.
I guess I am just not disciplined enough to do the hard work necessary to continue on this thread. I am just going to take my sensitive sensibilities and go home and whimper.
I wish you knew me.
B
Prometheus
New member
by Bob Youngs
1) If you help enough people attain their goals, they will do the same for you.
...
5) A person’s attitude will determine how successful or unsuccessful they will be.
6) The best lifters have a huge amount of respect for all other lifters.
While those that can’t lift shit blame everyone but themselves for their mediocrity.
1) If you help enough people attain their goals, they will do the same for you.
...
5) A person’s attitude will determine how successful or unsuccessful they will be.
6) The best lifters have a huge amount of respect for all other lifters.
While those that can’t lift shit blame everyone but themselves for their mediocrity.
Zulu -- This a serious a question -- how can you give advice about powerlifting ifyou have never been in a meet?? I have played basketball, but I would never try and give advice to someone that plays seriously. WHy?? Because it would be ridiculous.
I know drugfree lifters that work their asses off and I know users that work hard also. I also know drugfree lifters and users that are lazy and have shitty attitudes. You know something else, even when I was clean I preferred the non tested meets because of the condescending attitudes I ran across in the drugfree meets. WHen I choose partners for the garage, I don't really look at how strng the guy is, but I look to see if they have a set. We try and make them quit in a few days. If they last thru teh 1st week or so then they stay. Why?? Because they took everything we had to dish out and survived. Everything get stepped up a few notches when a new guy is around. I don't want someone tah gets intimidated by teh stronger guys, or the loudmouths. I want someone that has balls(figure of speech -- we also a part-time girl). I look for total commitment while they are training -- for themselves and the others, period.
I know drugfree lifters that work their asses off and I know users that work hard also. I also know drugfree lifters and users that are lazy and have shitty attitudes. You know something else, even when I was clean I preferred the non tested meets because of the condescending attitudes I ran across in the drugfree meets. WHen I choose partners for the garage, I don't really look at how strng the guy is, but I look to see if they have a set. We try and make them quit in a few days. If they last thru teh 1st week or so then they stay. Why?? Because they took everything we had to dish out and survived. Everything get stepped up a few notches when a new guy is around. I don't want someone tah gets intimidated by teh stronger guys, or the loudmouths. I want someone that has balls(figure of speech -- we also a part-time girl). I look for total commitment while they are training -- for themselves and the others, period.
mjollnir -- you train to beat your own records btu who judges them. How do you know that they were done in teh same manner as the last time you did them. I can gaurantee you this -- if you entered a few powerlifting meets your lifts would take off like a rocket. Guys always seem to make a huge imporvement in their total AFTER they enter a meet.
I don't know who you are trying to impress around here but giving answers that sound like they come out of a textbook is ridiculous. I would like to hear you THEORY on meet strategy for a lifter going into his 1st nationals, or a lifter going into his 1st meet. How would you handle someone you coached when they bombed, or hwo would you handle them in the meet after they bombed?? You have no idea what type of mindset it requires to be on the platform. I have competed in many different sports, and powerlifting is much different than all the others.
I don't know who you are trying to impress around here but giving answers that sound like they come out of a textbook is ridiculous. I would like to hear you THEORY on meet strategy for a lifter going into his 1st nationals, or a lifter going into his 1st meet. How would you handle someone you coached when they bombed, or hwo would you handle them in the meet after they bombed?? You have no idea what type of mindset it requires to be on the platform. I have competed in many different sports, and powerlifting is much different than all the others.
1-Dawg I don't feel qualified to dish out advice on contest preparation or on form. However I do feel qualified to speak about exercises, supplementation, the neural system and other aspects essential to powerlifting. I can't offer anything to experts like PLJay and Brian, but I feel sometimes I offer a contribution to the beginning lifters here.
But I guess I was wrong.
-Zulu
But I guess I was wrong.
-Zulu
A beginning lifter and a beginning powerlifter are very different. Since you have trained for awhile you surely can help a new lifter, but a new powerlifter -- probably not. Most powerlifters have already been lifting for quite awhile, they then figure out they like lifting so they give powerlifting a shot, if they like it, they stick at it. See the difference?? A competetive powerlifter trains different, usaully has a strong drive and is full of himself. His wife hates him close to meets because he is trying to make weight and has to listen to him for teh next day if he lifts like shit or, even worse has to hear how great he is after he lifted awesome at a meet. Just a little humor input here as this internet shit can get a little too heated. A new powerlifter is much better suited to listen to an experienced powerlifter, not a lifter who has never entered a meet.
This is one of the dumbest discussions I have ever read. If anyone believes that "gear" is not part of every sport...then grow up. I do not condone it in any manner to anyone...but it is a part of being top of the class in sports.
How many of the top powerlifters do you think are clean? Wait wait...is this a powerlifting forum? Sorry, maybe I was wrong.
Can you get bigger and stronger naturally...most definately. Will AAS help...most definately. Do YOU need them? Probably not. I am not super strong in my powerlifts nor my strongman lifts. I'll probably never be a pro either...but what does it matter to me? When the time comes that I decide if I will be a pro or just an amateur having fun...I'll also make that decision about gear.
Till you are willing to sacrifice what you want for your dream...just don't worry with it. Don't worry about other people's business either...no reason to put anyone down at all...for any reason.
B True
How many of the top powerlifters do you think are clean? Wait wait...is this a powerlifting forum? Sorry, maybe I was wrong.
Can you get bigger and stronger naturally...most definately. Will AAS help...most definately. Do YOU need them? Probably not. I am not super strong in my powerlifts nor my strongman lifts. I'll probably never be a pro either...but what does it matter to me? When the time comes that I decide if I will be a pro or just an amateur having fun...I'll also make that decision about gear.
Till you are willing to sacrifice what you want for your dream...just don't worry with it. Don't worry about other people's business either...no reason to put anyone down at all...for any reason.
B True
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