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Calling all newbies: Ovetraining is highly ANABOLIC

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SSAlexSS

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Read this. it is very long, but it long on purpose. This will put a lid on such subject once and for all.


If you’re like me, every once in awhile you red-line it in the gym. It feels good to find new training limits, doesn’t it?

Maybe you’re going heavy that day, or you’re squeezing out forced reps in multiple sets, or both. The point is that pushing it sometimes really feels good. And you get some positive feedback for your efforts when you can barely turn the wheel or hit the clutch on the way home; forget about trying to put your shirt on the next day. I truly believe, as you probably do, that these are the workouts that stimulate growth.


But what happens if you do too many of those high-intensity workouts in a row or even in a short period of time? C’mon, it happens. You know, you’re fired up coming back from an injury, you’re getting ready for a competition, training with a new partner, blah, blah, blah. Sometimes you just don’t monitor your intensity well and before you know it, two or three weeks of killer workouts go by.


Then, all of a sudden you begin to feel it; it seems like you’re getting weaker, you’ve got no energy, and you really don’t want to train today. “I must be overtraining,” you reason, recalling the way you’ve beaten yourself up lately. After all, you recognize these symptoms and have read about the perils of overtraining. Better back off, or you’re doomed to a downward spiral of ever-decreasing muscular size. After all, overtraining is bad— real bad. Right?


Well, not really. Read on.


The Supercompensation Phenomenon
For decades, scientists, coaches and athletes have noticed an interesting phenomenon. When typical overtraining symptoms appear— resulting from either a sustained period of high intensity (use of heavy weights), or high-volume training (increased number of sets and reps), or both (increased training load; load = weight x total sets x total reps)— and the lifter has gone back to a normal routine, “supercompensation” or “rebound” effect occurs within the next few weeks.


That is, the previously overtrained lifter will make greater gains than he/she normally would have! “No question about it! A supercompensation effect occurs,” says Dr. Michael Stone, professor at Appalachian State University in Boone, NC. Stone, who authored a scientific review on overtraining.1 “It’s simply a physiological adaptation that allows you to handle greater intensities later on,” he adds. Dr. Bill Kraemer, professor at Ball State University, in Muncie, IN, agrees. “That effect does occur. If you have a sharp increase in volume and train hard, there will be some kind of rebound effect.” Kraemer, like Stone, a former president of the National Strength and Conditioning Association, points out, “Your body catches up with itself.”


Greater gains. Got your attention? Sure. Still a bit confused about what “over-reaching” is? Let’s make it clearer.


Over-Reaching Defined
The term “overtraining” is a general one, describing a few different maladies, all with basically the same symptoms: decreased performance, chronic fatigue, lack of training drive, etc. (see the sidebar on overtraining symptoms). “Over-reaching” is a type of short-term overtraining— a specific way of briefly increasing volume/intensity of training (sometimes done purposely)— to facilitate overtraining symptoms and a subsequent rebound effect. To get a better idea of what we mean by “over-reaching,” let’s narrow down the overtraining syndrome.


There is a physiological basis for Nietzche's statement, "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger!"

Dr. Andy Fry, University of Memphis


Generally, there are two types of overtraining. In the first, performance may plateau or decrease due to the consistent and unvarying use of the same exercises and training routines. This may occur because your central nervous system and musculature are not stimulated with new, different movement patterns; your body essentially becomes “bored” with the same exercises and routines! This kind of overtraining, documented in weightlifters, has been termed “monotonous routine overtraining.” Ever see a guy do the same routine, with the same weight and exercises, day after day? Ever see a guy spend hours in the gym week after week and look exactly the same? Yep, same dude.


The second general type of overtraining is from “overwork,” when you train too much and/or too often. (It’s what we usually think of as overtraining). When this occurs, your recuperative processes are stunted, meaning that: 1) overtraining symptoms appear; 2) you’ve lost the ability to positively adapt to the training stimulus; and 3) you’re risking injury.


Symptoms of Overtraining

Decreased performance in the gym
Elevated resting heart rate
Decreased desire to train
Altered blood pressure
Increased cortisol levels
Decreased testosterone levels
General feeling of weakness/fatigue
Decreased muscle glycogen stores
Increased stress response
Increased muscle soreness
Decreased sex drive
Increased levels of irritability and anxiety
Feeling of depression
More frequent illnesses from lowered immune response

From here, you can go one of two ways. If the overwork is chronic (long-term), you’re headed downhill, and probably fast, resulting in injury, weakness, a loss of lean body mass, decreased appetite, even depression, and a host of other, more severe problems. At best, full recuperation from chronic overwork would take weeks. This should be what we all fear— “overtraining” at its destructive worst.


However, if the overwork has been short-term, has not led to injury, and the lifter goes back to a normal routine (with proper recuperation time), a supercompensation effect is achieved. The processes by which muscles adapt and grow are facilitated. More strength and more muscle tissue, period.


Dr. Andy Fry, Associate Professor and Director of Exercise Biochemistry at the University of Memphis, TN, points out, “Coaches in North America have used over-reaching for a decade, they just haven’t called it that! When working with athletes reporting for football training camp, for instance, they’ll put them through two or three workouts per day. Those are actually variations of over-reaching, so it has been used effectively for years.”


“But,” adds Fry, author of the most recent comprehensive review on overtraining,2 “the coach has to be careful, knowing when to properly remove the overload so the athlete can get a rebound. The bottom line is that it can be, and often is, a planned part of training. Remember, there is a physiological basis for Nietzche’s statement, ‘Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger!’”


So, how does this positive adaptation occur from something so destructive as overtraining? No one really knows for certain. But, here’s a possibility.


A Plausible Explanation
You know testosterone is a primary anabolic hormone largely responsible for the protein-synthesizing (growth) capacities of muscle tissue. However, circulating levels of this hormone have consistently been shown to decrease during periods of overwork. This may be induced by an elevation of our “stress hormone,” cortisol.


Even though this is certainly not good, our bodies’ cells can adapt to the overwork by becoming more testosterone-efficient. That is, they’ll make the most of the testosterone that is available. For instance, there may be subtle changes that allow the cell to be more effective with the lower levels of testosterone in the circulation; they become more sensitive to the testosterone that is circulating.


At this point, you back off your high-intensity/high-volume training. You go back to your normal routine with plenty of rest.


Here’s the good part: Now, you’ve got a window of time during which you’re testosterone production increases to normal levels (because you’ve stopped beating yourself up) and your cells are still more testosterone-efficient. You’ll have a greater protein-synthesizing capacity and be able increase muscle growth at a speed your body does not normally achieve! (Of course, this greater anabolic effect only lasts a short while— as long as it takes for the muscle cells to return to their normal rate of testosterone utilization and efficiency).


To be certain, we don’t know if this mechanism is responsible for the over-reaching rebound effect. But, it does seem to make sense with what we do know about the body’s response to overwork.


The Nitty Gritty
Specific Recommendations. Okay, so now you’re really interested in trying out this over-reaching concept. Exactly how do you work this into your routine? Unfortunately, making specific recommendations is not that easy. “The problem is that this is a general phenomenon; it’s very difficult to make specific recommendations to any one athlete,” says Dr. Kraemer. “I mean, this is why athletes have been going by the hit and miss method for so long!” Dr. Stone adds, “The one thing we know for certain is that this supercompensation effect occurs after an increase in intensity or volume.”The question then becomes, for how long do we have to overtrain?


The Concept of Supercompensation

The idea of supercompensation, which is the fundamental basis of over-reaching, should be familiar to every bodybuilder. We use "supercompensation" when we carbohydrate load (aka, glycogen load).


That is, when carb loading, we decrease carbohydrate intake-- the opposite of what we actually want-- so our bodies become more sensitive to carbs. Our bodies' cells start looking for carbohydrates. In this process, an enzyme called glycogen synthetase, whose primary job is to store carbs as glycogen, increases in concentration and activity. (That's what you would expect, right?)


Then, we dramatically increase the percentage of carbs in our diets. Now, there is a period of time when glycogen synthetase has field day of sorts, storing more glycogen than it normally would be able to. Before glycogen synthetase activity can return to normal (maybe days), muscle glycogen levels have become supercompensated-- stored in supernormal (higher-than-normal) levels.


The same thing happens here with over-reaching. You cause your body to maladapt by over-stressing its growth processes through short-term overtraining. Enzymes, cells and hormones positively adapt to the new situation. Then you return to a normal routine, providing adequate rest and recovery. Now, your body's anabolic capacity is supernormal for a limited period of time. The result is accelerated growth.




The Overwork Period. The length of the overwork period will also be an individual thing, differing from lifter to lifter. But, the literature suggests that the acute overwork period last from “a few days to weeks, no more than that.” The lifter must be in touch with how he is feeling throughout the overwork period and gauge the body’s responses to each training session. How do you know when to back off?


The Return to Normal Training. First, overwork for more than a few weeks may put you into the detrimental, chronic overtraining stage. So, regardless of how you’re feeling, total overwork time should be a limiting factor. Second, any changes that are much more severe than decreased performance in the gym and chronic fatigue should be a signal to move out of this short-term overwork period. “What we’re talking about here is a matter of degrees,” says Dr. Bob Keith, co-author with Stone in the JASSR overtraining review and a champion masters powerlifter and marathoner (eeh!, this is a guy who’s got to know about overtraining). “As long as it doesn’t break you down, leading to an exhaustive phase and injury, you’ll have a greater adaptation to meet that stress the next time.”


That Fine Line. The line between the beneficial rebound effect of over-reaching and the destructive effects of chronic overtraining is a fine one, often crossed without notice. However, if you gauge your training carefully and keep the overwork period to a week or two, you can become successful at facilitating this positive anabolic rebound effect from a brief period of overwork.


I am not suggesting that everyone run out, overtrain for a few weeks and wait for the rebound effect. It is achoice that has to be made by you, do you want big gains fast or slow? There is long and easy road, or short and steep. Choice is yours. And dont forget to cherish overtraining.




References
1. Stone, MH, RE Keith, JT Kearney, et al. Overtraining: A review of the signs, symptoms and possible causes. J Appl Sports Sci Res., 5(1):35-50, 1991.
2. Fry, AC, and WJ Kraemer. Resistance exercise overtraining and overreaching. Sports Med., 23(2):106-129, 1997.
 
Why did you only address this to newbies??? Surely they would be the least able to walk the line between beneficial rebound and chronic overtraining......I guess that gives you a good excuse when they fail to gain though huh.

Or mebbe you are afraid more experienced lifters will call bulls**t? Oh looks like Zulu just did.......
 
Last edited:
Ugh dude. That article is crap.

Do you even know if Supercompensation of glycogen occurs? Most experts now think it doesn't.

You don't even understand what it says. Sure 'overtraining' can be beneficial it's called conditioned overtraining and people like Tudor Bompa are prononents of it. The article doesn't even touch on how to go about it; it requires careful intensity/volume/frequency cycling most often used by olympic athletes.

Go ahead and do 25 forced reps. FRY THAT NERVOUS SYSTEM. Oooooo yeah....cherish the overtraining.

Anyway, I'm no expert, but even I can tell this article isn't going to help anyone.

-Zulu
 
Re: Re: Calling all newbies: Ovetraining is highly ANABOLIC

Imnotdutch said:
Why did you only address this to newbies??? Surely they would be the least able to walk the line between beneficial rebound and chronic overtraining......I guess that gives you a good excuse when they fail to gain though huh.

Or mebbe you are afraid more experienced lifters will call bulls**t? Oh looks like Zulu just did.......

Because if you live in Black and White newbie world of "Overtraining is bad, this program is the best, etc", you are a newbie. Most people are newbies. If a person thinks he is dvanced, he probably is just a newbie being dilusional.
 
ZZuluZ said:
Ugh dude. That article is crap.

Do you even know if Supercompensation of glycogen occurs? Most experts now think it doesn't.

You don't even understand what it says. Sure 'overtraining' can be beneficial it's called conditioned overtraining and people like Tudor Bompa are prononents of it. The article doesn't even touch on how to go about it; it requires careful intensity/volume/frequency cycling most often used by olympic athletes.

Go ahead and do 25 forced reps. FRY THAT NERVOUS SYSTEM. Oooooo yeah....cherish the overtraining.

Anyway, I'm no expert, but even I can tell this article isn't going to help anyone.

-Zulu


Ummm. What experts are you talking about? As all things, bodybuilding dogma likes to swing like a pendelum. One time they beleive this, next time is that.

Charles poliquin beleives in supercompensation, heck why did he invent 1 day arm cure (crap load of sets of curls for entire day).

Ask Advaik or me if supecompensation exists, it does. After you do 100+ sets of arms in one day, oh my god, your arms will supercompensate. Sure they might shrink slightly in few hours after 100 sets (due to lack of glycogen), but very soon those suckers will swell up like balloons.

The reason why that article doesnt talk about specific sets/reps etc (if you read it) is because EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. Intensity isnt the same from person to person, or recovery abilities. If you claim to know the magic split that works well for everyone, YOU ARE A NEWBIE!

I might recover faster than you, you might recover faster than X, Y might not be good at recovery. One best routine will be best only for someone with similiar genetics, not everyone. Guy who wrote that article isnt newbie like some.
 
Re: Re: Re: Calling all newbies: Ovetraining is highly ANABOLIC

SSAlexSS said:


Because if you live in Black and White newbie world of "Overtraining is bad, this program is the best, etc", you are a newbie. Most people are newbies. If a person thinks he is dvanced, he probably is just a newbie being dilusional.

Fortunately most people who frequent this board are not newbies according to your definition because they come here to learn about new ways of training.

I was almost impressed by the skilful way you decided to alter the definition of a word in order to suit yourself. But for us humble mortals, you should have indicated that your post was directed at everybody because most of us aren't capable of reading minds.
 
SSAlexSS said:



Ummm. What experts are you talking about? As all things, bodybuilding dogma likes to swing like a pendelum. One time they beleive this, next time is that.

Charles poliquin beleives in supercompensation, heck why did he invent 1 day arm cure (crap load of sets of curls for entire day).

Ask Advaik or me if supecompensation exists, it does. After you do 100+ sets of arms in one day, oh my god, your arms will supercompensate. Sure they might shrink slightly in few hours after 100 sets (due to lack of glycogen), but very soon those suckers will swell up like balloons.

The reason why that article doesnt talk about specific sets/reps etc (if you read it) is because EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. Intensity isnt the same from person to person, or recovery abilities. If you claim to know the magic split that works well for everyone, YOU ARE A NEWBIE!

I might recover faster than you, you might recover faster than X, Y might not be good at recovery. One best routine will be best only for someone with similiar genetics, not everyone. Guy who wrote that article isnt newbie like some.

So what you are trying to say is that you might be right, somebody else might be right......but we don't know. Also, there is no way to train that will suit everybody. Am I right??

Your statement of 'Read this. it is very long, but it long on purpose. This will put a lid on such subject once and for all' contradicts this point of view.

BTW whats the deal with insiting others are newbies?? Perhaps you could post some pics and some example lifts (you must be immensely strong as your training method is apparently good for strength) so that we might all understand how powerful this type of training is. I'm sure everybody will be so impressed that they will start contacting you for advice immediately.
 
Imnotdutch said:


So what you are trying to say is that you might be right, somebody else might be right......but we don't know. Also, there is no way to train that will suit everybody. Am I right??

Your statement of 'Read this. it is very long, but it long on purpose. This will put a lid on such subject once and for all' contradicts this point of view.

BTW whats the deal with insiting others are newbies?? Perhaps you could post some pics and some example lifts (you must be immensely strong as your training method is apparently good for strength) so that we might all understand how powerful this type of training is. I'm sure everybody will be so impressed that they will start contacting you for advice immediately.


Ok I am sorry to say this, but stuff I am saying isnt getting through some people's heads.

That post is reply to Zulu. Zulu being a newbie he is, started being too aggressive because of simple fact that the article didnt prescribe a specific sets/reps/days.

Answer is simple, different genetics. Apparently zulu being a newbie beleives in one (or few) programs work for all. Or he is just too 'new' to be able to find a program that suits him.

no need for me to continue replying....

What i wrote that "it is wrong
 
There is every need for you to reply......alot of people would listen if you could back up your words with pics and numbers.


SSAlexSS said:



Ok I am sorry to say this, but stuff I am saying isnt getting through some people's heads.

That post is reply to Zulu. Zulu being a newbie he is, started being too aggressive because of simple fact that the article didnt prescribe a specific sets/reps/days.

Answer is simple, different genetics. Apparently zulu being a newbie beleives in one (or few) programs work for all. Or he is just too 'new' to be able to find a program that suits him.

no need for me to continue replying....

What i wrote that "it is wrong
 
Re: Re: Re: Calling all newbies: Ovetraining is highly ANABOLIC

SSAlexSS said:


Because if you live in Black and White newbie world of "Overtraining is bad, this program is the best, etc", you are a newbie. Most people are newbies. If a person thinks he is dvanced, he probably is just a newbie being dilusional.

I'm a newbie, cool, thanks for clarifying that, all this time I as thinking something else.

Imnotdutch, good luck, I've been asking to see a pic to back these "theories" up as soon as they started showing up here, but he has yet to even reply to my requests.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Calling all newbies: Ovetraining is highly ANABOLIC

needsize said:


I'm a newbie, cool, thanks for clarifying that, all this time I as thinking something else.

Imnotdutch, good luck, I've been asking to see a pic to back these "theories" up as soon as they started showing up here, but he has yet to even reply to my requests.

Yup. I wouldn't hold your breath.

I used to have a high tolerance for Alex. Took sort of an "every village needs an idiot" approach. But now he's directing his schpeil at newbies. Encouraging young/new lifters to do this kind of volume could easily lead to injury.

I just hope people are reading these responses as well.
 
You all want numbers? I've been doing overtraining techniques for 3 weeks now, and am going to continue until August, at which time I will start an old school regime.

My numbers in a 3 week time (From the time I did my first overtraining day that I previously posted):
Biceps: Grown .3
Chest: Grown .9
Shoulders: Grown 1.4
Waist: Grown .4 (ok, it's mostly fat, that's because I've been eating like a horse to compensate for my overtraining :D)
Legs: ?? (I havn't really done any squatting, overtraining takes alot out of me so I haven't been able to get a good leg day in and usually just do leg extentions/curls on leg day).

My chest/shoulders have blown up, I am getting a very wide look now. My arms arn't doing as good as I'd hope, but I am sure it just needs more time.

I really really wish I had kept my pictures that I took about 8 months ago before I started training. I was very small and was flabby. I deleted them off my HD because they were very embarresing and I didnt want to ever see them again. Now I am ALOT bigger (I kept the numbers, and will post them in August when I am done with a complete year) and pretty ripped.
 
You stupid illiterate asswhipe, I said supercompensation OF GLYCOGEN DOES NOT NECESSARILY OCCUR as reflected by texts by Vladimir Zatziorski.

Show me a source that shows otherwise.

And learn to read.

That article you posted IS shit because it doesn't specify ANYTHING. "Overtraining is good". How does this help anyone?

Don't tell ME I'm the one who prescribes the same routines for everyone. You were the one posting about the ultimate best routines while I advocated periodization and variety.

So suck it bitch.

-Zulu
 
ZZuluZ said:
You stupid illiterate asswhipe, I said supercompensation OF GLYCOGEN DOES NOT NECESSARILY OCCUR as reflected by texts by Vladimir Zatziorski.

Show me a source that shows otherwise.

And learn to read.

That article you posted IS shit because it doesn't specify ANYTHING. "Overtraining is good". How does this help anyone?

Don't tell ME I'm the one who prescribes the same routines for everyone. You were the one posting about the ultimate best routines while I advocated periodization and variety.

So suck it bitch.

-Zulu

Don't sit on the fence, how do you really feel.....
 
Advaik said:
You all want numbers? I've been doing overtraining techniques for 3 weeks now, and am going to continue until August, at which time I will start an old school regime.

My numbers in a 3 week time (From the time I did my first overtraining day that I previously posted):
Biceps: Grown .3
Chest: Grown .9
Shoulders: Grown 1.4
Waist: Grown .4 (ok, it's mostly fat, that's because I've been eating like a horse to compensate for my overtraining :D)
Legs: ?? (I havn't really done any squatting, overtraining takes alot out of me so I haven't been able to get a good leg day in and usually just do leg extentions/curls on leg day).....


So if I understand you correctly, you're attributing gains in your chest and shoulders to overtraining, but your waist gain to overeating? Doesn't sound right to me.
 
I shouldn't have said it's fat, actually my BF has not changed at all even though I am taking in about 1000-1500 more calories a day. The thing is my stomach has expanded and I am constantly full, you know the feeling after you just had a big meal? That's what it is like constantly to me, but my abs are still very visable, and there is little actual fat gain if any.
 
Don't encourage this motherfucker, somewhere some rookie lifter is hurting himself because of all of alex's attention getting bullshit
 
...

this is officially the most absurd fucking thing I have ever read in my life. it wouldn't be called "overtraining" if it was anabolic. jesus christ.

I am also interested in seeing some pics of your obviously marvelous physique.

This is terrible advice to be given to newbies.
 
ZZuluZ said:
Ugh dude. That article is crap.

Do you even know if Supercompensation of glycogen occurs? Most experts now think it doesn't.

You don't even understand what it says. Sure 'overtraining' can be beneficial it's called conditioned overtraining and people like Tudor Bompa are prononents of it. The article doesn't even touch on how to go about it; it requires careful intensity/volume/frequency cycling most often used by olympic athletes.

Go ahead and do 25 forced reps. FRY THAT NERVOUS SYSTEM. Oooooo yeah....cherish the overtraining.

Anyway, I'm no expert, but even I can tell this article isn't going to help anyone.

-Zulu

im with zulu on this, and the fact that this is adressed to newbies is even worse. newbies are the most susceptible to overtraining as it is, the last thing they need is someone telling them its the best thing for them.
 
Advaik said:
You all want numbers? I've been doing overtraining techniques for 3 weeks now, and am going to continue until August, at which time I will start an old school regime.

My numbers in a 3 week time (From the time I did my first overtraining day that I previously posted):
Biceps: Grown .3
Chest: Grown .9
Shoulders: Grown 1.4
Waist: Grown .4 (ok, it's mostly fat, that's because I've been eating like a horse to compensate for my overtraining :D)
Legs: ?? (I havn't really done any squatting, overtraining takes alot out of me so I haven't been able to get a good leg day in and usually just do leg extentions/curls on leg day).

My chest/shoulders have blown up, I am getting a very wide look now. My arms arn't doing as good as I'd hope, but I am sure it just needs more time.

I really really wish I had kept my pictures that I took about 8 months ago before I started training. I was very small and was flabby. I deleted them off my HD because they were very embarresing and I didnt want to ever see them again. Now I am ALOT bigger (I kept the numbers, and will post them in August when I am done with a complete year) and pretty ripped.

I would like to make a few simple points.......

1) You are eating more!! If I increase my calories by 1000 my arms grow by half an inch. I soon lose that if I drop my calories.....and I lose it quickly. So chances are it is glycogen not muscle fibres.

2) What do you mean by your shoulders grew by 1.4 inches?? How did you measure this??

3) If everything you have gained is muscle (big if) then surely you were undertraining before. List your workout.......I want to see what you mean by 'overtraining'.

Oh and how much weight have you gained since starting this routine?? And how about giving us examples of what you bench etc.

Needsize,
I know I wont get pics or numbers from him. I have asked for pics and representative lifts on several occasions. This just seems to shut him up really quickly.
 
Imnotdutch said:


I would like to make a few simple points.......

1) You are eating more!! If I increase my calories by 1000 my arms grow by half an inch. I soon lose that if I drop my calories.....and I lose it quickly. So chances are it is glycogen not muscle fibres.

2) What do you mean by your shoulders grew by 1.4 inches?? How did you measure this??

3) If everything you have gained is muscle (big if) then surely you were undertraining before. List your workout.......I want to see what you mean by 'overtraining'.

Oh and how much weight have you gained since starting this routine?? And how about giving us examples of what you bench etc.

Needsize,
I know I wont get pics or numbers from him. I have asked for pics and representative lifts on several occasions. This just seems to shut him up really quickly.


Dont be so critical of his gains. Many hardgainers spend years on bad overtraining routines, then they drasticly lower the volume to hardgainer level and gain 30 pounds of pure muscle in 3-6 weeks.

Now if hardgainers could do that, imagine what someone else with better genes could get?

Such examples over and over again show that overtraining + undertraining later will produce phenominal gains.

Advaik is right. He followed some of mine advices and got stronger and bigger. There you go,.
 
SSAlexSS said:



Dont be so critical of his gains. Many hardgainers spend years on bad overtraining routines, then they drasticly lower the volume to hardgainer level and gain 30 pounds of pure muscle in 3-6 weeks.

Now if hardgainers could do that, imagine what someone else with better genes could get?

Such examples over and over again show that overtraining + undertraining later will produce phenominal gains.

Advaik is right. He followed some of mine advices and got stronger and bigger. There you go,.

30lb of pure muscle in 3-6 weeks??? Oh boy..........now that is a good un. PROVE IT!!! SHOW ME THE REPORTS THAT BACK THIS UP!! Go ahead put the proof in front of me and I'll check it out. You say that this has been proven over and over again......well show me the evidence so I can review it for you.

As for being critical........we all need to be critical in order to separate the bullshit in life from the good. My whole point was that I can make those gains just through eating more.......which is what he did. So we can't even attribute his gains to your routine........as much as you would like that.

BTW how bout some pics and example lifts.......you must be huge by now if Advaik is having these results.
 
My routine is 3 days and I focus mainly on my upper body. I take 1 day off and then start the routine over, that way I am training almost twice a week. I've increased my weight about 2.5-5lbs on each lift every session so far. I don't know exactly how much I lift since I just do "what feels right". Anyways, I don't do the traditional "bench" or whatever because I don't have a spotter, I use DBs whenever possible. Btw, each session takes about 2-3 hours (except Day 3 which is usually just an hour at the most). I train very intensly and I never cheat. And like I said, I am doing this for the next 2 months, then taking a month off for rest and cardio to lose any extra BF I gain doing this, then I will post my final 1 year of training results. Afterwhich I will start the old school program until next summer.

Day 1-
Flat DB Press 5x6
Inclined DB Press 5x6
Declined DB Press 5x6
Flat Machine Flyers 5x6
Skullcrushers 5x6
Weighted Dips 5x6
Bent Weighted Dips 5x6
BB Concentration Curls 5x6
DB Hammer Curls 5x6
Wrist Rollers 5x6
Wrist Flexors 5x6
Wrist Extensions 5x6

Day 2-
Deadlifts 5x6
Straight Leg Deadlifts 5x6
Pull Downs 5x6
Pull Backs 5x6
Weighted Chin Ups 5x6
BTN Press 5x6
Military Press 5x6
Lateral Raises 5x6
Shrugs 10x12

Day 3- (Light day, don't want to put too much energy into legs since I am pretty burnt out by this time anyways)
Squats 5x6
Calf Raises 5x6
Leg Curls 5x6
Leg Extensions 5x6
 
Advaik and Alex are definatly some sort of scam team working together to piss off people and misinform newbies
 
I am not advocating any of this to newbies. Read my other post, I WARN newbies from even trying this routine. It's for people who know what they are doing. I am also not pissing anyone off, if you don't like my routine, don't try it. I am not advocating this to anyone. People want numbers, I give them numbers.

Piss off gmanlax7, and don't even put my name anywheres near Alex's name. He can use me as an example in any of his posts, I could care less. He does not know what he is doing, and if he want's to say "My plan worked for Advaik!" then he can go ahead and say that. I am not following his plan, I researched what he was saying and found alot of useful information to incorporate into my routines, but his idea of overtraining and my idea of overtraining are completly different.
 
Advaik said:
I am not advocating any of this to newbies. Read my other post, I WARN newbies from even trying this routine. It's for people who know what they are doing. I am also not pissing anyone off, if you don't like my routine, don't try it. I am not advocating this to anyone. People want numbers, I give them numbers.

Piss off gmanlax7, and don't even put my name anywheres near Alex's name. He can use me as an example in any of his posts, I could care less. He does not know what he is doing, and if he want's to say "My plan worked for Advaik!" then he can go ahead and say that. I am not following his plan, I researched what he was saying and found alot of useful information to incorporate into my routines, but his idea of overtraining and my idea of overtraining are completly different.

You know I don't consider that an 'overtraining' program. It might be a bit excessive compared to what most do but it isn't anything like what SSAlexSS seemed to advocate. I still see it as plausible that you just found a decent routine and diet.......either way, good luck with hitting your targets.
 
SSAlexSS said:



Dont be so critical of his gains. Many hardgainers spend years on bad overtraining routines, then they drasticly lower the volume to hardgainer level and gain 30 pounds of pure muscle in 3-6 weeks.

Now if hardgainers could do that, imagine what someone else with better genes could get?

Such examples over and over again show that overtraining + undertraining later will produce phenominal gains.

Advaik is right. He followed some of mine advices and got stronger and bigger. There you go,.

AAAANNNNNNNNDDDDDDDDD

You are yet to back up your claims. You made some huge claims so lets see it........we want the proof. Failure to deliver will result in you being labelled a sensationalist dumbass who knows nothing and lies badly.
 
Imnotdutch said:


You know I don't consider that an 'overtraining' program. It might be a bit excessive compared to what most do but it isn't anything like what SSAlexSS seemed to advocate. I still see it as plausible that you just found a decent routine and diet.......either way, good luck with hitting your targets.

This is a "real" overtraining program. I did research on it. All overtraining is is training BEYOND failure. If you do 1 rep beyond failure, you overtrained. What Alex is advocating is excessive overtraining, where you train to complete muscle failure. Like I said in another post, that is very catabolic if done too much. Sure, doing it once may do something for you but that's it. I would not recommend doing it unless you hit a wall and can't gain any mass. It's a pretty good system shocker.
 
Advaik said:
I researched what he was saying and found alot of useful information to incorporate into my routines, but his idea of overtraining and my idea of overtraining are completly different.


There you go we have difference of opinion, but what we have in common is that there IS something in methods I propose.
 
Advaik said:


This is a "real" overtraining program. I did research on it. All overtraining is is training BEYOND failure. If you do 1 rep beyond failure, you overtrained. What Alex is advocating is excessive overtraining, where you train to complete muscle failure. Like I said in another post, that is very catabolic if done too much. Sure, doing it once may do something for you but that's it. I would not recommend doing it unless you hit a wall and can't gain any mass. It's a pretty good system shocker.


What are you talkjing about? I didnt post about that you need to go beyond failure. Infact most of them time you should stop short of failure.

What program are you talking about? 100 sets of overtraining rogram?


Hey if you do 100 sets for biceps all to failure then you are asking fro trouble. Stop short 1-2 reps before going to failure.

And my overreach and undertraing program is more of high volume + low volume with no going to failure!

I did my research too, you should not go to failure often or even in most times!
 
SSAlexSS said:



There you go we have difference of opinion, but what we have in common is that there IS something in methods I propose.

You're right......there is something in your methods. Its brown, warm and smelly and suprisingly contains alot of the things that our bodies don't need.
 
ZZuluZ said:
Ugh dude. That article is crap.

Do you even know if Supercompensation of glycogen occurs? Most experts now think it doesn't.

You don't even understand what it says. Sure 'overtraining' can be beneficial it's called conditioned overtraining and people like Tudor Bompa are prononents of it. The article doesn't even touch on how to go about it; it requires careful intensity/volume/frequency cycling most often used by olympic athletes.

Go ahead and do 25 forced reps. FRY THAT NERVOUS SYSTEM. Oooooo yeah....cherish the overtraining.

Anyway, I'm no expert, but even I can tell this article isn't going to help anyone.

-Zulu

Zullu I beg to differ you opinion.

If you have read and though about that article, it is NOT talking about Glycogen supercompensation. iIt is just using it as an example to show TESTESTORONE supercompensation. Basicly it is like injecting yourself with mild testestorone..

Hmm training that can act as a mild steroid..... Hmmmm.... Read into the article more carefully next time.

quote from the article

"
The same thing happens here with over-reaching. You cause your body to maladapt by over-stressing its growth processes // ****see that ****// through short-term overtraining. Enzymes, cells and hormones positively adapt to the new situation. Then you return to a normal routine, providing adequate rest and recovery. Now, your body's anabolic capacity is supernormal for a limited period of time. The result is accelerated growth.

"


enzymes, cells and hormones. There you go. I hope people dont beleive pseudo not science you are teaching through your misinterpretations of valueable texts. It is guys like you who misinterpret for good or evil, and use the texts....


sorry to say that. :(
 
SSAlexSS said:


Zullu I beg to differ you opinion.

If you have read and though about that article, it is NOT talking about Glycogen supercompensation. iIt is just using it as an example to show TESTESTORONE supercompensation. Basicly it is like injecting yourself with mild testestorone..



I hate topoint out the obvious but thereis no such thing as 'mild testosterone'. All testosterone is the same.......however you might argue the training causes minute amounts of test to be produced by the body.
 
Imnotdutch said:


30lb of pure muscle in 3-6 weeks??? Oh boy..........now that is a good un. PROVE IT!!! SHOW ME THE REPORTS THAT BACK THIS UP!! Go ahead put the proof in front of me and I'll check it out. You say that this has been proven over and over again......well show me the evidence so I can review it for you.

As for being critical........we all need to be critical in order to separate the bullshit in life from the good. My whole point was that I can make those gains just through eating more.......which is what he did. So we can't even attribute his gains to your routine........as much as you would like that.

BTW how bout some pics and example lifts.......you must be huge by now if Advaik is having these results.


goto www.hardgainer.com and find PROOF pdf or animation that shows you how skinnies went to huggies.

Guys who overtrained doing arnolds and other chemical freaks routines suddenly switched to HG type workouts doing 2x brief workouts per week (or so) and drasticly changing their appearances with new muscle mass.

How hardgainers/ectos gained so much? They did this overreaching unknowingly. If they can get such results, hmmmm.... what can we get.
 
Imnotdutch said:


I hate topoint out the obvious but thereis no such thing as 'mild testosterone'. All testosterone is the same.......however you might argue the training causes minute amounts of test to be produced by the body.


Well what i meant is.

1) Overtraining decreases your test levels, right?
2)How ever your body gets used to less test so it becomes more receptive to it. That is how a guy with lower test levels can be muscular, his body is efficient at utilization of test.

3)Doing less intensive workout stops overtraining and test levels rise back up.

4)Your body is still efficient at converting test to muscle (for a limited time) so in effect you got additional growth due to better/more testestorone in your body.


It is like injecting yourself with mild anabolics.
 
Imnotdutch said:


You're right......there is something in your methods. Its brown, warm and smelly and suprisingly contains alot of the things that our bodies don't need.

Scientists and smart people dont talk about waste products.

Ever heard einstein talking about condoms? NO. He was to intelligent and high class for that.
 
SSAlexSS said:


Scientists and smart people dont talk about waste products.

Ever heard einstein talking about condoms? NO. He was to intelligent and high class for that.

That must be why scientists and smart people spend alot of time and alot of money working out how to re-use waste products....I find it hard to believe that they do this without discussion seeing as progress is built upon discussion. I guess thats another theory of yours that didn't stand up to scrutiny.

I do believe Einstein would have spoken about condoms......but probably in private!!

I would like to pointout that by mentioning them you are not smart according to your own definition.
 
Imnotdutch said:


That must be why scientists and smart people spend alot of time and alot of money working out how to re-use waste products....I find it hard to believe that they do this without discussion seeing as progress is built upon discussion. I guess thats another theory of yours that didn't stand up to scrutiny.

I do believe Einstein would have spoken about condoms......but probably in private!!

I would like to pointout that by mentioning them you are not smart according to your own definition.

Judge everyone by what come out of his mouth. I dont start dirt talking.

Anyways, are we talking about training? There is a board about discussing your personal problems.
 
SSAlexSS said:



Well what i meant is.

1) Overtraining decreases your test levels, right?
2)How ever your body gets used to less test so it becomes more receptive to it. That is how a guy with lower test levels can be muscular, his body is efficient at utilization of test.

3)Doing less intensive workout stops overtraining and test levels rise back up.

4)Your body is still efficient at converting test to muscle (for a limited time) so in effect you got additional growth due to better/more testestorone in your body.


It is like injecting yourself with mild anabolics.

To address your points:

1) You tell me......you have all of the answers.

2) That must be why all top sportsmen and bodybuilders are clean.......never touched a pill or been near a needle in their lives. Thats why top bodybuilders never come off cycle right??

3) According to your theory yes.

4) Test is not converted to muscle.
 
Imnotdutch said:


To address your points:

1) You tell me......you have all of the answers.

2) That must be why all top sportsmen and bodybuilders are clean.......never touched a pill or been near a needle in their lives. Thats why top bodybuilders never come off cycle right??

3) According to your theory yes.

4) Test is not converted to muscle.


It builds muscle through increased protein absorbtion. So in some way it does. Exact mechanics is unimportant, what important is - more test more sensitivety to test = good results.


About the pro bbers. Most of them dont do these cycles, a steroid cycle will win hands down. That is why i have said that this is like a mild anabolic. A bunch of test injections will do much more.
I dont hype my statements. I dont say that this is more powerful than ANADROL!


I dont have all the answers. Howeever what I do have is a desire to learn to have more answers and questions. ok?
 
SSAlexSS said:


I dont have all the answers. Howeever what I do have is a desire to learn to have more answers and questions. ok?

This is one of the few things that you have said that I truly appreciate.
 
SSAlexSS said:


Judge everyone by what come out of his mouth. I dont start dirt talking.

Anyways, are we talking about training? There is a board about discussing your personal problems.

I beg to differ with regards to your first statement. You always seem tobe the first to act superior to others and to accuse them of being newbies or insinuating that they are stupid. So I am to judge you by what comes out of your mouth?......most of the time it is pure bulls***.

Also, when I ask you to back up your statements with reports, pics etc you do not. WHY NOT??? Hardly the actions of a guru are they.
 
Imnotdutch said:


This is one of the few things that you have said that I truly appreciate.

Thanks.

if we all post the same information that we agree on, nobody learns new things right? Only through discussions do we sort out good from the bad, false and true.
 
SSAlexSS said:


Thanks.

if we all post the same information that we agree on, nobody learns new things right? Only through discussions do we sort out good from the bad, false and true.

Agreed......but you are disagreeing with alot of people with many years of knowledge obtained through their own training and from research. At least consider their points before dismissing them.
 
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