Blood work is back - Now what?

[njmuscleguy]

Hey folks,

Ok, I got my blood work back... in a nutshell, my levels are all over the place and my doctor wants me to see an endocrinologist. Anyone who's knowledgeable about bloodwork values, I could use some help.

My last cycle ended in early March. PCT consisted of HCG, original Derma for 2 weeks, then Sustain for 4 weeks. IGF for 4 weeks.
Blood work was taken exactly 2 months after end of cycle.
Mind you, I've had bloodwork worse than this (if you can imagine!). Using Derma is the best PCT I've had so far, even if I couldn't recover any better.

Here are the levels that are out of range:

Testosterone, Total 178 L (260 - 1000 ng/dL)
Testosterone, Free 21.7 L (50.0 - 210.0 pg/mL)

LH 1.3 L (1.5 - 9.3 mIU/mL)

IGF-1 281 H (10 - 255 ng/mL)
This is to be expected, I finished IGF a week prior to bloodwork.

Cholesterol, Total 216 H (125 - 200 mg/dL)
HDL 37 L ( > /= 40 mg/dL)
Cholesterol/HDL Ratio 5.8 H (< - 5.0)
LDL 140 H (< 130 mg/dL)
Triglycerides 196 H (< 150 mg/dL)

Liver
AST 48 H (10 - 40 U/L)
ALT 99 H (9 - 60 U/L)
Iron 171 H (45 - 170 mcg/dL)
Uric Acid 3.9 L (4.0 - 8.0 mg/dL)

Thyroid
T3 Uptake 40.1 H (22 - 35)

CK, Total 381 H ( < = 200 U/L) - I take creatine daily

The following are all within range, but relevant:

FSH 4.1 (1.6 - 8.0 mIU/mL)
Prolactin 6.0 (2.0 - 18.0 ng/mL)
Estradiol <32 (< 52 pg/mL)
Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive 14 (10 - 50 pg/mL)
Cortisol 14.7 (4.0 - 22.0)
Insulin, serum 9 (< 17 micro IU/mL)
DHEA Sulfate 207 (110 - 370 mcg/dL)
SHBG 21 (5 - 49 nmol/L)

So test levels are shot, I'm not surprised... always struggled with this, even before AAS. LH is low, but FSH is normal. E2, prolactin, insulin, SHBG, etc. are all within range.

Any thoughts here? I'm wondering if I got blood work too soon?

More important, what do I say when I go to the endo? Do I mention AAS use? Will it be obvious from the bloodwork? If he asks, do I tell or deny? This is my first dealing with an endo and I could very well go on HRT after this, so it's a big deal for me. If I really do need HRT, I want the endo to take me seriously and not have his judgement clouded by previous AAS use.

Any thoughts / suggestions greatly appreciated folks!

 

[5x10]

Hey folks,

Ok, I got my blood work back... in a nutshell, my levels are all over the place and my doctor wants me to see an endocrinologist. Anyone who's knowledgeable about bloodwork values, I could use some help.

My last cycle ended in early March. PCT consisted of HCG, original Derma for 2 weeks, then Sustain for 4 weeks. IGF for 4 weeks.
Blood work was taken exactly 2 months after end of cycle.
Mind you, I've had bloodwork worse than this (if you can imagine!). Using Derma is the best PCT I've had so far, even if I couldn't recover any better.

Here are the levels that are out of range:

Testosterone, Total 178 L (260 - 1000 ng/dL)
Testosterone, Free 21.7 L (50.0 - 210.0 pg/mL)

LH 1.3 L (1.5 - 9.3 mIU/mL)

IGF-1 281 H (10 - 255 ng/mL)
This is to be expected, I finished IGF a week prior to bloodwork.

Cholesterol, Total 216 H (125 - 200 mg/dL)
HDL 37 L ( > /= 40 mg/dL)
Cholesterol/HDL Ratio 5.8 H (< - 5.0)
LDL 140 H (< 130 mg/dL)
Triglycerides 196 H (< 150 mg/dL)

Liver
AST 48 H (10 - 40 U/L)
ALT 99 H (9 - 60 U/L)
Iron 171 H (45 - 170 mcg/dL)
Uric Acid 3.9 L (4.0 - 8.0 mg/dL)

Thyroid
T3 Uptake 40.1 H (22 - 35)

CK, Total 381 H ( < = 200 U/L) - I take creatine daily

The following are all within range, but relevant:

FSH 4.1 (1.6 - 8.0 mIU/mL)
Prolactin 6.0 (2.0 - 18.0 ng/mL)
Estradiol <32 (< 52 pg/mL)
Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive 14 (10 - 50 pg/mL)
Cortisol 14.7 (4.0 - 22.0)
Insulin, serum 9 (< 17 micro IU/mL)
DHEA Sulfate 207 (110 - 370 mcg/dL)
SHBG 21 (5 - 49 nmol/L)

So test levels are shot, I'm not surprised... always struggled with this, even before AAS. LH is low, but FSH is normal. E2, prolactin, insulin, SHBG, etc. are all within range.

Any thoughts here? I'm wondering if I got blood work too soon?

More important, what do I say when I go to the endo? Do I mention AAS use? Will it be obvious from the bloodwork? If he asks, do I tell or deny? This is my first dealing with an endo and I could very well go on HRT after this, so it's a big deal for me. If I really do need HRT, I want the endo to take me seriously and not have his judgement clouded by previous AAS use.

Any thoughts / suggestions greatly appreciated folks!

it would be hard for an endo to diagnose a problem if he doesnt know your on juice

he might think theres something wrong with you, but in reality, u just came off a cycle
i dont know how to read bloodwork

just my .02

 

[r1]

How do you feel?

I have been on various HRT regiments and on one setup, it resulted in low levels of HDL. I felt like shit. Hard to concentrate, no sex drive, etc.

Your current numbers make a strong case for "secondary hypogonadism" evidenced by the low levels of T and low LH.

HRT is a big deal and you should go on it as a last resort. If it were me, I would have the doctor attempt to restart my system with a 12 week run of Clomid. If you bounce back, great. If not, then HRT is probably in your future.

In general, it is best to share your history with your doc, but the prejudice is definitely out there. If you don't get a good feeling from the Endo that you are about to see, I would recommend taking a look at having your primary care doc work with Dr John from http://www.allthingsmale.com

Just because he/she is an Endo does not mean he will he/she will have a lot of experience treating this. Ask about it. My first Endo (although well-intentioned) messed me up pretty bad.

"The Testosterone Syndrome" by Eugene Shippen is another good resource. If anything, you should read this book and use it as a benchmark to determine if the Endo that you are going to see knows anything at all.

A quick summary by a long time patient of Dr Shippen can be found here:
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/david-z-s-primer-134235700.html?highlight=primer
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/david-z-s-primer-134235701.html?highlight=primer

Good luck.

R1

 

[Svengali]

With test levels that low two months post cycle, I would consider running pct again.. Maybe looking at doing hcg for a couple weeks and then clomid. It seems that derma did not do much for you either. What did your test levels look like pre-cycle? Any Ideas?

BTW, my pre-cycle test levels were in the 320 range... and I had not been on a cycle in a decade.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Any thoughts / suggestions greatly appreciated folks![/QUOTE]

Eeks. It depends on what you want.

Big concerns are: The T is obviously low. Your LH is low. Your e is kinda high. And your HDL is too low. Tris ain't that good either.


First off, get some oils in you to get that HDL up -- extra vigin olive, and fish. Primrose oil is great for HDL but it's slightly estrogenic so I'd add a natty anti -e. (Naturally I'd suggest POST CYCLE).

For triglycerides add some TMG.

this also shows that prolactin is an overrated threat.

If you want to up the T and LH naturally, I'd suggest UNLEASHED for T and MyogenX for LH. Ask around. The feedback on these is excellent.

Now for the reality. Your endo doesn't have to know shit. If you're clinically supressed you're elligable for T replacement. Are you prepared to go on for life?

There isn't much you can do as a permanent solution to LH, but it won't matter much if you're on HRT. Still, it's best to produce a little. It's never good to be zero. My LH is only 2.5. It used to be 0.8 until I started taking UNLEASHED and MyogenX along with my HRT.


Be careful with the iron too. Were you taking orals? They boost red blood cells and lower HDL.

Your SHBG is pretty good but I'll bet that's because you're young.

That's about it. Obviously, you need to dry out for a while and get healthy. The numbers will be better next time if you take the right precautions.

How old are you? If you're under 35 you can probably recover and get "normal." If you're over 40 I'd say go on HRT and deal with it. But remember...they won't prescibe anti-e's or HCG so you're on your own with those and you'll still need them with HRT. I'd still take natty test boosters and anti-e's to help thing along. Don't use one of those Life Extention rip-off clinics. Get a legit script from a doc for the T and get the rest on your own. (Some "longevity" sites sell real a-dex).

Hope this helps. Get strong soon.

 

[njmuscleguy]

How do you feel?

I have been on various HRT regiments and on one setup, it resulted in low levels of HDL. I felt like shit. Hard to concentrate, no sex drive, etc.

Your current numbers make a strong case for "secondary hypogonadism" evidenced by the low levels of T and low LH.

HRT is a big deal and you should go on it as a last resort. If it were me, I would have the doctor attempt to restart my system with a 12 week run of Clomid. If you bounce back, great. If not, then HRT is probably in your future.

In general, it is best to share your history with your doc, but the prejudice is definitely out there. If you don't get a good feeling from the Endo that you are about to see, I would recommend taking a look at having your primary care doc work with Dr John from http://www.allthingsmale.com

Just because he/she is an Endo does not mean he will he/she will have a lot of experience treating this. Ask about it. My first Endo (although well-intentioned) messed me up pretty bad.

R1

I actually don't feel horrible at the moment... about a week ago things were very rough... I have my days, and when I do, they're pretty bad.

I really don't want to go on clomid for treatment....I've done PCT after PCT in the past with 4-8 weeks of clomid and I never recovered to "normal". Plus I hate the sides. I know HRT is for life, but I also see AAS, training, diet, etc as long-term lifestyle too. I want to feel good now, not in 20 years, ya know?

Thanks for the help and the info, will look into it!

 

[njmuscleguy]

With test levels that low two months post cycle, I would consider running pct again.. Maybe looking at doing hcg for a couple weeks and then clomid. It seems that derma did not do much for you either. What did your test levels look like pre-cycle? Any Ideas?

BTW, my pre-cycle test levels were in the 320 range... and I had not been on a cycle in a decade.

I've done that in the past... run 2, even 3 PCT's back to back because the first one didn't work. I've run HCG several times. I've run nolvadex, I've run clomid for 4-6 weeks. This time, though I didn't recover to what is considered "normal" for most guys my age, I at least didn't crash horrible with Derma... so I still think it helped and it should work very nicely for anyone else.

To answer your question, my test levels have been lower than normal since before my starting AAS, though it seems I'm not even recovering to as high as I used to a few years ago even. Before this cycle, I was in the low 200's.

 

[njmuscleguy]

Big concerns are: The T is obviously low. Your LH is low. Your e is kinda high. And your HDL is too low. Tris ain't that good either.

Yup, agreed.... my diet in the past couple weeks hasn't been stellar, so I'm thinking that's why my cholesterol / tri's are high. You think my E is high? It's pretty low in the reference range provided.

First off, get some oils in you to get that HDL up -- extra vigin olive, and fish. Primrose oil is great for HDL but it's slightly estrogenic so I'd add a natty anti -e. (Naturally I'd suggest POST CYCLE).

I do all this already, plus I take flax oil at night. I've been taking Sesapure and Glucorell naturally for some time now....in the past I believe they've helped me with recovering liver enzymes and cholesterol, but not this time...I'm a little disappointed.

For triglycerides add some TMG.
What's TMG?

this also shows that prolactin is an overrated threat.

If you want to up the T and LH naturally, I'd suggest UNLEASHED for T and MyogenX for LH. Ask around. The feedback on these is excellent.

Thing is, if my body's "normal" levels are just low (genetically), then I don't think any of these supplements will raise T and LH? I'm not disputing the products, just think they can't raise my levels beyond what my body will allow naturally.

Now for the reality. Your endo doesn't have to know shit. If you're clinically supressed you're elligable for T replacement. Are you prepared to go on for life?

Short answer? Yes... I HATE feeling this way... I've contended with it for years...and the only time I feel good is when I'm "on"... I'd rather do HRT for life than roller-coaster up and down like this for years.

There isn't much you can do as a permanent solution to LH, but it won't matter much if you're on HRT. Still, it's best to produce a little. It's never good to be zero. My LH is only 2.5. It used to be 0.8 until I started taking UNLEASHED and MyogenX along with my HRT.

Be careful with the iron too. Were you taking orals? They boost red blood cells and lower HDL.

I took dbol at the start of the cycle, which would've been in January. Would that still be affecting my iron? I take animal packs and they don't have any iron...not sure where else it would've come from.

How old are you? If you're under 35 you can probably recover and get "normal." If you're over 40 I'd say go on HRT and deal with it. But remember...they won't prescibe anti-e's or HCG so you're on your own with those and you'll still need them with HRT. I'd still take natty test boosters and anti-e's to help thing along. Don't use one of those Life Extention rip-off clinics. Get a legit script from a doc for the T and get the rest on your own. (Some "longevity" sites sell real a-dex).

I'm 32.... as I said, I think "recovering" for me means getting to levels lower than what is normal for everyone else.... my levels when I'm "off" and clean are between 200-300... that's why I think trying to raise them is just a waste of time.

Hope this helps. Get strong soon.

Thanks for your help, really appreciate it!

 

[Triple J]

what exactly was your cycle, what AAS and what dosage, and when were your last shots of long ester gear? what are your stats age, height, weight, body fat%. how is your sex drive? how are your workouts going?

the fact that LH is still low, HDL is still high, and liver values slightly high, indicates to me that the effects of the AAS lingered longer than you planned for. thus you need more time. plan your supplementation accordingly to address all those areas

 

[njmuscleguy]

what exactly was your cycle, what AAS and what dosage, and when were your last shots of long ester gear? what are your stats age, height, weight, body fat%. how is your sex drive? how are your workouts going?

the fact that LH is still low, HDL is still high, and liver values slightly high, indicates to me that the effects of the AAS lingered longer than you planned for. thus you need more time. plan your supplementation accordingly to address all those areas

Wks 1-4 Dbol 50mg ED
Wks 1-8 Test Enth 750mg /wk
Wks 5-8 NPP 200mg / wk
Wks 1-8 Proviron 50mg ED
Wks 1-9 Aromasin 12.5mg ED

Took Tylers for at least the first 4-5 weeks of the cycle.

Last test enth shot was 2nd week of March, so about 2 months ago.
I'm 32, 5'7, 185 lbs, 12-15% bf. Sex drive is pretty low, for obvious reasons. Workouts have been hit or miss in the past couple weeks, but I've been going. I use stimulants, creatine, etc. to keep me going. Some days I'm exhausted, some days not so much.

I'm surprised my cholesterol & triglycerides and liver enzymes are still not back to normal... those have typically recovered quickly in the past. I have also been taking Glucorell and Sesapure religiously, along with flax oil. I didn't expect to have a problem in this area.

I know how it looks, that maybe I haven't given myself enough time to recover. I just think that even in 1-2 months from now, though my liver enzymes and cholesterol would definitely recover, my test levels would only barely increase. The highest my test levels have ever been were in the 300's, before starting AAS. So even if I "recovered" to the 300's, that's still pretty pitiful.

 

[KD1]

Hope your stuff gets back to normal - I 2nd the idea of running another PCT. Something like HCG + AntiE + Clomid.

 

[Nelson Montana]

njmuscleguy: I'll answer your questions one by one.



Anything e level over 30 is considered "high" for men. Optimum for health and appearance is around 10.

Remember, a lot of these tests(like e and prolactin and prog) weren't meant to be taken by men so they don't register off the chart.

Flax oil is a little estrogenic. Still with olive oil and lots of fish.

TMG is Trymethyglycine. It can be found in most any health food store. It's also in high end multis such as DX7. Check your multi. If it's not there, get some. Also, Folic acid helps to lower Tris as well.

If your body isn't producing enough LH or T, doubling it with supps may not be enough. Still, I see it as a "better than nothing" scenario. And if you go on HRT it'll help to keep the natural levels a little more supportive. (The body doesn't shut down just because you're on HRT)>

If you're prepared to go on HRT, get the script! You're elligable.

D-bol will increase iron and red blood cells more than anything else. That's what creates that d-bol punp! (It was also the basis for my new supp VIGOR. More blood=fuller muscles and better pumps). But taking it for a long time can cause a build up of iron. Or, you may be getting a lot of iron from someplace you're unaware of. MuscleMilk has a lot of iron. breakfast cerial has a lot of iron. To offset it, take 400iu's of vitamin E twice a day. It lowers iron.

At 32 I think you still have a chance for raising your levels naturally but it'll take a lot of commitment -- staying off for maybe a year and sticking with the supps at a high dosage. It's up to you. I hate to see anyone depend on drug therepy for life, esepcially at such a young age, but there are worse things. At least you'll know you'll always have some tasty pharm grade test in the cabinet!


Good luck bro.

 

[njmuscleguy]

Hope your stuff gets back to normal - I 2nd the idea of running another PCT. Something like HCG + AntiE + Clomid.

If I hadn't tried this in the past, I'd do it... but as I said, I've done the 2nd and 3rd PCT thing before... and I didn't recover any better.

Plus the thought of having to do clomid and HCG again

Thanks for your input though.

 

[njmuscleguy]

njmuscleguy: I'll answer your questions one by one.



Anything e level over 30 is considered "high" for men. Optimum for health and appearance is around 10.

I didn't realize that... I thought the Sustain would've taken care of E.

Remember, a lot of these tests(like e and prolactin and prog) weren't meant to be taken by men so they don't register off the chart.

Flax oil is a little estrogenic. Still with olive oil and lots of fish.

Ok, I'll switch to olive oil. I already eat tons of fish, both raw and cooked.

TMG is Trymethyglycine. It can be found in most any health food store. It's also in high end multis such as DX7. Check your multi. If it's not there, get some. Also, Folic acid helps to lower Tris as well.

If your body isn't producing enough LH or T, doubling it with supps may not be enough. Still, I see it as a "better than nothing" scenario. And if you go on HRT it'll help to keep the natural levels a little more supportive. (The body doesn't shut down just because you're on HRT)>

If you're prepared to go on HRT, get the script! You're elligable.

I've been prepping myself mentally for HRT for a while, just been holding out for the same reason everyone else says, my age. I just needed help analyzing the values other than test & free test, like FSH, LH, etc. to understand if there is something going on that I can "fix", thereby increasing test & free test.

But as you said, even if I can recover somewhat, is that enough to be "normal"... I'm thinking no, because my natural levels have always teetered near the "normal" test threshold. So why delay the inevitable?

D-bol will increase iron and red blood cells more than anything else. That's what creates that d-bol punp! (It was also the basis for my new supp VIGOR. More blood=fuller muscles and better pumps). But taking it for a long time can cause a build up of iron. Or, you may be getting a lot of iron from someplace you're unaware of. MuscleMilk has a lot of iron. breakfast cerial has a lot of iron. To offset it, take 400iu's of vitamin E twice a day. It lowers iron.

At 32 I think you still have a chance for raising your levels naturally but it'll take a lot of commitment -- staying off for maybe a year and sticking with the supps at a high dosage. It's up to you. I hate to see anyone depend on drug therepy for life, esepcially at such a young age, but there are worse things. At least you'll know you'll always have some tasty pharm grade test in the cabinet!

Yup, HRT at my age is kinda daunting, but so is the thought of struggling to feel good, struggling to get good workouts, struggling to maintain in good shape, even if for a year, to get my natty test levels up a bit.

Good luck bro.

Thanks for the suggestions... I have alot of thinking to do.

 

[njmuscleguy]

Ok, so I've gotten an appointment with the endo that my doctor referred me to. I asked my doctor his opinion about what I should disclose to the endo, since my doctor knows about my AAS use. He told me that he's already spoken to the endo and that he's cool with it, and I should be open and honest with him.

The appointment is a month from now. I'm wondering if I should get bloodwork done again in a month, just before the appointment, to see if anything's improved?

 

[D_Mac]

You know man if it was me I would stay on indeffinite PCT regimens rather than get on HRT. I would try hihg doses of Clomid to get the system goin, I would try anytihng to jump start the system, maybe even try 6 months or a year of taking nothing but good oils and cholesterols to give your body the building blocks of hormones.

The bottom line really comes down to how you feel. If you can still gain muscle and have sex then don't go on HRT. Your levels are low but if your body responds to them and you still feel like a man then just be natural for a while and see how you do on that. But thats just me, I don't ever want HRT unless I absolutely HAVE to go on it.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Ok, so I've gotten an appointment with the endo that my doctor referred me to. I asked my doctor his opinion about what I should disclose to the endo, since my doctor knows about my AAS use. He told me that he's already spoken to the endo and that he's cool with it, and I should be open and honest with him.

The appointment is a month from now. I'm wondering if I should get bloodwork done again in a month, just before the appointment, to see if anything's improved?

The Derma probably kept your e somewhat under control but it was too much than could be handled naturally. 30 isn't horrible, just not optimal. Stick with it. You may also want to try other natty anti-e's with different ingredients. (POST CYCLE, CytogenX). Taking anti- e drugs will further mess with your lipids and you can't afford to do that right now.

Definetely get another blood test. Lots of rest, lots of water. You may be surprised. If you're T stays under 300, then you've got a decision to make. Let us know.

 

[Triple J]

i believe you ran PCT too soon. a TE dosage of 750mg/wk will take up to two months or longer to clear. there is a "roid calculator" somewhere on the net that graphs the blood levels over time based on the half-life of the esters. you should take a look at this, its an eye-opener.

the other issue i have with your cycle, given your history, is that you are using progestins. any kind of nandrolone, and i do not care if it is a long ester or not, is a more suppressive compound. it may relate to prolactin levels or it may not. whatever the reason those are the facts. so that is another potential factor that may contribute to your level of suppression.

i believe another PCT is in order and you should not include progestins in future cycles if you want to be able to take breaks and restore HPTA function more esasily. however I hear you regarding naturally low T. its hard to say what is causing that issue and harder to say exactly what you should do about it. it something to discuss with the endo. but be aware that you likely are still recovering from your last cycle and so that is the real reason your current levels are as low as they are.

 

[njmuscleguy]

You know man if it was me I would stay on indeffinite PCT regimens rather than get on HRT. I would try hihg doses of Clomid to get the system goin, I would try anytihng to jump start the system, maybe even try 6 months or a year of taking nothing but good oils and cholesterols to give your body the building blocks of hormones.

The bottom line really comes down to how you feel. If you can still gain muscle and have sex then don't go on HRT. Your levels are low but if your body responds to them and you still feel like a man then just be natural for a while and see how you do on that. But thats just me, I don't ever want HRT unless I absolutely HAVE to go on it.

Well, that's just it... I feel like crap when I'm off, because my natural test levels are low. Total exhaustion. I can sleep for days sometimes. My workouts suffer in between cycles because my natural test levels aren't great. Libido is a big issue as well, and all the supplements in the world haven't been able to help. I'll give it some more time and see. Thanks bro!

 

[njmuscleguy]

The Derma probably kept your e somewhat under control but it was too much than could be handled naturally. 30 isn't horrible, just not optimal. Stick with it. You may also want to try other natty anti-e's with different ingredients. (POST CYCLE, CytogenX). Taking anti- e drugs will further mess with your lipids and you can't afford to do that right now.

Definetely get another blood test. Lots of rest, lots of water. You may be surprised. If you're T stays under 300, then you've got a decision to make. Let us know.

I'll do exactly that - thanks!

 

[njmuscleguy]

i believe you ran PCT too soon. a TE dosage of 750mg/wk will take up to two months or longer to clear. there is a "roid calculator" somewhere on the net that graphs the blood levels over time based on the half-life of the esters. you should take a look at this, its an eye-opener.

the other issue i have with your cycle, given your history, is that you are using progestins. any kind of nandrolone, and i do not care if it is a long ester or not, is a more suppressive compound. it may relate to prolactin levels or it may not. whatever the reason those are the facts. so that is another potential factor that may contribute to your level of suppression.

i believe another PCT is in order and you should not include progestins in future cycles if you want to be able to take breaks and restore HPTA function more esasily. however I hear you regarding naturally low T. its hard to say what is causing that issue and harder to say exactly what you should do about it. it something to discuss with the endo. but be aware that you likely are still recovering from your last cycle and so that is the real reason your current levels are as low as they are.

I started 2 weeks after my last test shot... thought that was enough time to wait? You're right about the progestin. I'm never running deca/NPP again, it wrecks me.

I'll give it some more time (1 month), get bloodwork again, then see the endo and hear what he thinks. Thanks!

 

[needtogetaas]

all theses people saying ya derma did not work it dont work do another pct...



"the guy has don 3-4 pct's in a raw before with hcg clomid nolva you name it and nothing has even got his levels as close to were DERMACRIN has got his levels to"


so stop right there with the do another pct its just dumb to say that if you have read the hole thread.derma worked better for him then any thing he has ever tried
so I think its safe to say if "dermacrin" could not help him nothing will and he needs hrt.

THANK YOU

 

[njmuscleguy]

all theses people saying ya derma did not work it dont work do another pct...

"the guy has don 3-4 pct's in a raw before with hcg clomid nolva you name it and nothing has even got his levels as close to were DERMACRIN has got his levels to"

so stop right there with the do another pct its just dumb to say that if you have read the hole thread.derma worked better for him then any thing he has ever tried
so I think its safe to say if "dermacrin" could not help him nothing will and he needs hrt.

THANK YOU

You've got that mostly right... yes, I have done back to back PCT's with clomid & HCG in the past... that didn't seem to be a solution... after even 4-5 months, I wasn't fully recovered. And with other PCT's, I've had test as low as 125...plus both LH and FSH were in the toilet while E2 was very high. This time, LH was low, FSH was normal and E2 was only slightly high. The moral of my story as far as using Sustain / Derma... I didn't FEEL like I crashed at any point...and it seemed it helped recovery somewhat. I still think Sustain is a good alternative for those wanting to avoid Clomid & Nolva. Time will tell.

 

[xrsist]

needto/pp, would njmuscleguy getting back on derma sustain for say another 4 weeks be of any benifit or not?

 

[Primordial Performance]

Nj,

You say your gettin blood tests again in 4 weeks?

Can I ship you a product to try for the next 4 weeks?

-Pp

 

[Nelson Montana]

If you're a non responder to Clomid IT REALLY SUCKS ASS.

Clomid set my PCT back several weeks. I needed to recover from the Clomid! Everytime. Even tried it when not recovering -- just as a T booster in between cycles. All it did was make me want to watch soap operas and play with Barbie dolls. (The toy dolls -- not the girls).

Horrible, horrible stuff.

But it seems to work for some people. It's a 50/50 crapshoot.

 

[needtogetaas]

needto/pp, would njmuscleguy getting back on derma sustain for say another 4 weeks be of any benifit or not?

you know if he used it for 4 weeks and it came close to getting him back to were he should be I dont think taking derma sustain for a longer time would be a bad idea..."deff better then telling him to use clomid again" witch did nothing but make him feel like shit with less recovery.

 

[boston789]

Use some fish oil to lower HDL and if you remember my thread from a few weeks ago this has really helped me recover and its all I've been using now. My balls are as big as they were when I was on HCG. Sex drive is great. Test levels are good. Its all I am on now:

The following are natural approaches that rebalance testosterone is men:

Chrysin: is a bioflavonoid that is extracted from various plants. The suggested daily dose is 1000mg. Originally used by bodybuilders, chrysin is a natural aromatase-inhibitor that increases free testosterone, thereby decreases excess estrogen. It has a terrific libido-enhancing effect and has antianxiety properties as well.

Nettle: (constitutes of highly concentrated extracts from nettle root) binds to SHBG in place of testosterone. It thereby decreases the chances producing bound testosterone.

Muira puama: is an herbal extract that increases free testosterone and suppresses excess estrogen. It enahces the libido and boosts energy.
Losing weight is highly recommended.

 

[needtogetaas]

Use some fish oil to lower HDL and if you remember my thread from a few weeks ago this has really helped me recover and its all I've been using now. My balls are as big as they were when I was on HCG. Sex drive is great. Test levels are good. Its all I am on now:

The following are natural approaches that rebalance testosterone is men:

Chrysin: is a bioflavonoid that is extracted from various plants. The suggested daily dose is 1000mg. Originally used by bodybuilders, chrysin is a natural aromatase-inhibitor that increases free testosterone, thereby decreases excess estrogen. It has a terrific libido-enhancing effect and has antianxiety properties as well.

Nettle: (constitutes of highly concentrated extracts from nettle root) binds to SHBG in place of testosterone. It thereby decreases the chances producing bound testosterone.

Muira puama: is an herbal extract that increases free testosterone and suppresses excess estrogen. It enahces the libido and boosts energy.
Losing weight is highly recommended.

I thought you got some dermacrin a wile back bro.

 

[lartinos]

Nandralone strikes again............ Just takes time to feel right for many people aftering taking it.

 

[lartinos]

dermacrine, HCG, igf-1, super male plex from vitamin shoppe, cabaser all seem like things you may wanna take. They work for me atleast

 

[Triple J]

people he ran his PCT too soon. the PCT product is not the issue.

if he runs another PCT now he should not be fighting any lingering AAS in his system. although progestins can still make for a slow recovery.

 

[boston789]

I thought you got some dermacrin a wile back bro.

I did use it...I used it during my PCT. I'm talking about after the derma, hcg and clomid.

 

[needtogetaas]

people he ran his PCT too soon. the PCT product is not the issue.

if he runs another PCT now he should not be fighting any lingering AAS in his system. although progestins can still make for a slow recovery.

maybe he might want to get back on the sustain for a wile then.

 

[bbkingpin]

I dont think you were clean long enough before blood work. Probably 6 months or 9 months to return to normal -- homeostasis. What was with the igf-1 for PCT?

 

[iHulk]

NJmuscle,
hope you get better soon bro. In 4 weeks, see the endo, take another blood test and see where you are. you may be pleasantly surprised with another 4 weeks. Let those Nandrolones and long test esters clear your system entirely.

Good luck bro
ihulk

 

[njmuscleguy]

Nj,

You say your gettin blood tests again in 4 weeks?

Can I ship you a product to try for the next 4 weeks?

-Pp

Yes, my endo appt is in exactly 4 weeks.

PM me

 

[njmuscleguy]

If you're a non responder to Clomid IT REALLY SUCKS ASS.

Clomid set my PCT back several weeks. I needed to recover from the Clomid! Everytime. Even tried it when not recovering -- just as a T booster in between cycles. All it did was make me want to watch soap operas and play with Barbie dolls. (The toy dolls -- not the girls).

Horrible, horrible stuff.

But it seems to work for some people. It's a 50/50 crapshoot.

I have to say, clomid was definitely better than nolva for me... I didn't recover *at all* with nolva...and it further killed what little libido I had. Clomid helped a bit, but with all the added sides. No thanks!

 

[njmuscleguy]

Use some fish oil to lower HDL and if you remember my thread from a few weeks ago this has really helped me recover and its all I've been using now. My balls are as big as they were when I was on HCG. Sex drive is great. Test levels are good. Its all I am on now:

The following are natural approaches that rebalance testosterone is men:

Chrysin: is a bioflavonoid that is extracted from various plants. The suggested daily dose is 1000mg. Originally used by bodybuilders, chrysin is a natural aromatase-inhibitor that increases free testosterone, thereby decreases excess estrogen. It has a terrific libido-enhancing effect and has antianxiety properties as well.

Nettle: (constitutes of highly concentrated extracts from nettle root) binds to SHBG in place of testosterone. It thereby decreases the chances producing bound testosterone.

Muira puama: is an herbal extract that increases free testosterone and suppresses excess estrogen. It enahces the libido and boosts energy.
Losing weight is highly recommended.

I will try the fish oil. Sustain has Chrysin. Again, I think it has merit.

Post Cycle has Nettle and Muira Puama. I've tried it in the past. It gave me a little boost, but not enough to recover.

 

[njmuscleguy]

Nandralone strikes again............ Just takes time to feel right for many people aftering taking it.

You're absolutely right... my first few deca cycles a few years back weren't bad, but my last deca cycle, including this last NPP cycle (even at 200mg /wk) were hell... I'm done with deca / NPP!

 

[njmuscleguy]

Triple J / iHulk: I think you guys are right... maybe I did need some more time. I thought 2 weeks was enough time to wait before PCT. Then 6 weeks of PCT. I figured after 2 months, I should've recovered somewhat. Maybe another course of Sustain will help? I'm just fearing the same fate as previous PCT's - even after several months my test levels were still shot. And the thought of having to wait 6-12 months to recover back to normal (if that even happens)... that's a long time!

thanks for the advice guys!

 

[Nelson Montana]

Deca and Nolva = the castration stack.

Again, do everything you can naturally. Do another couse of the Dermacrine. Try the UNLEASHED. It really works for a lot of guys. Anthony's MyogenX has been getting great feedback too. These all do different things. You need all the help you can get so why not take it? You have nothing to lose. I'll bet the numbers are a lot better, and even if they aren't high enough, you're still ahead of the game. HRT is serious. You want to be sure you did all you could before committing.

 

[njmuscleguy]

Deca and Nolva = the castration stack.

Again, do everything you can naturally. Do another couse of the Dermacrine. Try the UNLEASHED. It really works for a lot of guys. Anthony's MyogenX has been getting great feedback too. These all do different things. You need all the help you can get so why not take it? You have nothing to lose. I'll bet the numbers are a lot better, and even if they aren't high enough, you're still ahead of the game. HRT is serious. You want to be sure you did all you could before committing.

Here's my concern with any OTC approach... let's say they raise my test levels up... is this permanent (at least until the next cycle anyway)? I'm all for using Sustain again for several weeks, or Unleashed or MyogenX... but I don't want them to be a temporary fix or boost... I don't want to get a "false reading" right before I get tested again, then crash again right after that. Am I way off the mark here?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Here's my concern with any OTC approach... let's say they raise my test levels up... is this permanent (at least until the next cycle anyway)? I'm all for using Sustain again for several weeks, or Unleashed or MyogenX... but I don't want them to be a temporary fix or boost... I don't want to get a "false reading" right before I get tested again, then crash again right after that. Am I way off the mark here?

I understand what you're saying. The answer is yes and no. They aren't like bullshit prohormones where you'll get a spike and then a drop. Think of them like nutrients. They make what you have a healthy level. But it's not a one shot deal. Realize, over time, the longer you're off, the more your body will recover more and more on its own. If you need some help in the interum, so what?

 

[iHulk]

I understand what you're saying. The answer is yes and no. They aren't like bullshit prohormones where you'll get a spike and then a drop. Think of them like nutrients. They make what you have a healthy level. But it's not a one shot deal. Realize, over time, the longer you're off, the more your body will recover more and more on its own. If you need some help in the interum, so what?

thats sounds like a reasonable medium .. if the the stuff Nelson is promoting doesn't have those poorly labeled prohormones in it then perhaps its logical that it can at least help your body get back to homeostatis and at the same time not hinder your T and LH natural recovery. Just give yourself 4 more weeks (its not that long) and see where you are with another blood work.

 

[Varga]

Here's my concern with any OTC approach... let's say they raise my test levels up... is this permanent (at least until the next cycle anyway)? I'm all for using Sustain again for several weeks, or Unleashed or MyogenX... but I don't want them to be a temporary fix or boost... I don't want to get a "false reading" right before I get tested again, then crash again right after that. Am I way off the mark here?

Do you have problem recovering because of high estrogen or that your testies are not working(shrunk)?

 

[njmuscleguy]

Do you have problem recovering because of high estrogen or that your testies are not working(shrunk)?

neither.... it's not an estrogen problem... and my testicles are not shrunk, but aside from not recoverying to what's normal for me, my "normal" has always been on the low side since I was in my 20's.

 

[Varga]

neither.... it's not an estrogen problem... and my testicles are not shrunk, but aside from not recoverying to what's normal for me, my "normal" has always been on the low side since I was in my 20's.

The reason I asked is that after my last cycle I had higher estrogen level (had nice hair and skin but sucked for my sex drive LOL). Anyway, took aromasin for 10 days and sex drive was back. Just a suggestion

 

[Primordial Performance]

Here's my concern with any OTC approach... let's say they raise my test levels up... is this permanent (at least until the next cycle anyway)? I'm all for using Sustain again for several weeks, or Unleashed or MyogenX... but I don't want them to be a temporary fix or boost... I don't want to get a "false reading" right before I get tested again, then crash again right after that. Am I way off the mark here?

Here is the deal.

Get on the Sustain/MyogenX combo we discussed. Get blood tested in 4 weeks while you are still using these supplements so you can get a real accurate reading of what natural products can do for you.

If you jump off this stuff 1-2 weeks before the test to “clear out” then your T will likely be lower than normal because your just dropping your support and LH levels may be temporarily lowered. Maybe you had a bit of a crash from not getting your dose of Tribex those last couple days before the blood test… get what Im sayin?

Get stabilized with a natural supplemental protocol. See where it gets you, then worry about dialing things in later.

-Pp

 

[njmuscleguy]

Here is the deal.

Get on the Sustain/MyogenX combo we discussed. Get blood tested in 4 weeks while you are still using these supplements so you can get a real accurate reading of what natural products can do for you.

If you jump off this stuff 1-2 weeks before the test to “clear out” then your T will likely be lower than normal because your just dropping your support and LH levels may be temporarily lowered. Maybe you had a bit of a crash from not getting your dose of Tribex those last couple days before the blood test… get what Im sayin?

Get stabilized with a natural supplemental protocol. See where it gets you, then worry about dialing things in later.

-Pp

My roommate just got a new bottle of Sustain, I'll start using it and just replace his. MyogenX is on the way too. I'm still a little concerned about being on these two products up until I get tested again. Not that I'm jonesing to get onto HRT, but if I do legitimately need it, and these supplements raise my LH & test only temporarily, then the bloodwork won't be accurate? I will just have roller-coasted up and down... it's the "down" part I want to avoid. It's not a happy place! Of course, I'm also considering future cycles and how they will fit into the scheme of what's going on.

Well, we'll see what happens in a month. As always, thanks for the help!

 

[Nelson Montana]

My roommate just got a new bottle of Sustain, I'll start using it and just replace his. MyogenX is on the way too. I'm still a little concerned about being on these two products up until I get tested again. Not that I'm jonesing to get onto HRT, but if I do legitimately need it, and these supplements raise my LH & test only temporarily, then the bloodwork won't be accurate? I will just have roller-coasted up and down... it's the "down" part I want to avoid. It's not a happy place! Of course, I'm also considering future cycles and how they will fit into the scheme of what's going on.

Well, we'll see what happens in a month. As always, thanks for the help!

You're worry about a "false" reading is unfounded. That's like saying you wouldn't want to take vitamin C because you want to make sure you have scurvy. These are natural remedies. They work WITH the body. That's what makes them the perfect compliment to enhanced performance whereas bullshit prohormones were trying to be a lame substitute for gear.

You really should considere including UNLEASHED to the Derma/MyogenX. The Derma will lower e, the Myo will increase LH and the UNLEASHED will increase free T. It will only help "bridge" until you get up and going on your own. NONE of the aformentioned supps will cause suppression.

 

[Triple J]

keep in mind the best way to increase free T is to lower E, so in that respect I think the SUSTAIN should be all you need. besides suppressing HPTA function and LH output, E will drive SHBG levels up significantly. so if you keep E low, your total T and free T will be higher. adding a product like UNLEASHED probably would not hurt but most likely would be unnecessary IMHO.

absolutely AGREED you should not worry about stimulating your system with these products. its just like any PCT situation. ultimately the endo will need to figure out if your issue at this time is primary or secondary hypogonadism. it appears to be secondary based on your initial blood work and the low LH values. so right now you want to stimulate LH and see how your balls respond. now if your LH levels jump and go high normal, and your balls do not respond with higher T production, then that is primary hypogonadism. the doctor may pursue other ways of determining this (using things like hCG or clomid) but for now I would go ahead with another PCT using the natural products. also be sure to include some zinc in your regimen.

 

[Nelson Montana]

keep in mind the best way to increase free T is to lower E, so in that respect I think the sustain should be all you need. besides suppressing HPTA function and LH output, E will drive SHBG levels up significantly. so if you keep E low, your total T and free T will be higher. adding a product like UNLEASED probably would not hurt but most likely would be unnecessary IMHO.

absolutely AGREED you should not worry about stimulating your system with these products. its just like any PCT situation. ultimattely the endo will need to figure out if your issue at this time is primary or secondary hypogonadism. it appears to be secondary based on your initial blood work and the low LH values. so right now you want to stimulate LH and see how your balls respond. now if your LH levels jump and go high normal, and your balls do not respond with higher T production, then that is primary hypogonadism. the doctor may pursue other ways of determining this (using things like hCG or clomid) but for now I would go ahead with another PCT using the natural products. also be sure to include some zinc in your regimen.

Good advice. Though MyogenX and POST CYCLE both contain a considerable amount of zinc.

 

[njmuscleguy]

TripleJ, Nelson.... agreed, good advice. I'll give it a shot!

 

[njmuscleguy]

Well everyone.... the bloodwork that my new endo ordered up is back... the doctor called me up today and said my test levels came back "normal", at 397. He said everything else was normal as well except for the FSH, which was slightly elevated but nothing to be concerned about. He feels that HRT isn't warranted - at the same time, he has no idea as to why I'm having the symptoms of low test (and for 10 years now). I'm healthy otherwise. He basically had no recommendations other than to get retested several times and see if there was some sort of consistency - if my test levels come out much lower than 397 several times, he will consider HRT - he said anything lower than 100 in his book is considered "low" - IS HE KIDDING ME??

At this point, I'm not sure what I want to do - my bloodwork has fluctuated between 175 and 400 in the past 5 years or so (even before starting A A S) - it's not gonna get any better than this, and I don't want to continue feeling run down all the time, and having my workouts suffer. I think I'll get tested one more time in the next week or so. After that, I will either get a second opinion, start another cycle, or consider self-imposed H R T (which I would prefer not to).

If anyone has any thoughts or feedback, I'm all ears/eyes!

thanks everyone!

 

[Nelson Montana]

Well everyone.... the bloodwork that my new endo ordered up is back... the doctor called me up today and said my test levels came back "normal", at 397. He said everything else was normal as well except for the FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - , which was slightly elevated but nothing to be concerned about. He feels that HRT isn't warranted - at the same time, he has no idea as to why I'm having the symptoms of low test (and for 10 years now). I'm healthy otherwise. He basically had no recommendations other than to get retested several times and see if there was some sort of consistency - if my test levels come out much lower than 397 several times, he will consider HRT - he said anything lower than 100 in his book is considered "low" - IS HE KIDDING ME??

At this point, I'm not sure what I want to do - my bloodwork has fluctuated between 175 and 400 in the past 5 years or so (even before starting A A S) - it's not gonna get any better than this, and I don't want to continue feeling run down all the time, and having my workouts suffer. I think I'll get tested one more time in the next week or so. After that, I will either get a second opinion, start another cycle, or consider self-imposed H R T (which I would prefer not to).

If anyone has any thoughts or feedback, I'm all ears/eyes!

thanks everyone!

Remind me...how low was your T before and what did you use for PC T?

 

[r1]

nj: The problem with the standard "range" is that it is not normalized to factor in age.

Check out this post:
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/table-t-levels-10-a-134235724.html

My doc wants me above 650 ng/dL at all times, but more important is the lack of hypogonadal (low T) symptoms.

PM me, bro. I have some links that will probably help you out.

R1

 

[njmuscleguy]

Remind me...how low was your T before and what did you use for PC T?

My bloodwork prior to this last one was 8 weeks after my cycle ended, with P C T consisting of H C G, and I G F, original Derma for 2 weeks and Sustain for 4 weeks... test came back at 178....F S H was normal, L H and Free Test were low.

My last bloodwork was one month later... during that time, I contined with Sustain and added MyogenX. So there was improvement, but I think this is the highest I'm gonna get.... this is close to the highest I've ever been in fact.

 

[Triple J]

what was your estrogen? as per my other post if your free T was low, E could be the culprit. if you reduce E, your total AND free T will go up.

i hate these incomplete bloodwork results you need a complete picture: total T, free T, estrogen, FSH, LH

 

[njmuscleguy]

what was your estrogen? as per my other post if your free T was low, E could be the culprit. if you reduce E, your total AND free T will go up.

i hate these incomplete bloodwork results you need a complete picture: total T, free T, estrogen, FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - , lh - leutenizing hormone -

Honestly, I don't know if he tested for E this time around, he did order up Free T, F S H (which he found a bit high), and L H ... he said everything else was normal...

My last bloodwork, E came back within range, but some had considered it slightly elevated.... T and Free T were low, F S H was normal and L H was low

 

[Nelson Montana]

My bloodwork prior to this last one was 8 weeks after my cycle ended, with P C T consisting of H C G, and I G F, original Derma for 2 weeks and Sustain for 4 weeks... test came back at 178....F S H was normal, L H and Free Test were low.

My last bloodwork was one month later... during that time, I contined with Sustain and added MyogenX. So there was improvement, but I think this is the highest I'm gonna get.... this is close to the highest I've ever been in fact.

Well, this proved that the MyogenX increased LH which is exactly what it's designed to do. Had you added the UNLEASHED you free T would have been up as well.

 

[njmuscleguy]

Well, I don't have exact numbers yet, but I don't think my free test was low (at least according to my doctor). And my total test still is on the low side.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Well, I don't have exact numbers yet, but I don't think my free test was low (at least according to my doctor). And my total test still is on the low side.

Free T is all that matters so it would be in your best interest to increase that even if you can't get your total much higher.

 

[njmuscleguy]

Free T is all that matters so it would be in your best interest to increase that even if you can't get your total much higher.

Curious... I think you mentioned you're on HRT - what is your regimen like? And on top of that, what supplements do you take? Unleashed? etc?

 

[njmuscleguy]

So I just talked to my endo again - what a jerk - talked to me with an attitude the whole time. I asked him if he thought adrenal fatigue was a possibility - he said cortisol and DHEA came back perfectly normal - I asked him if it was better to test cortisol 4x's a day (saliva tests) and he said no, that AM test was best indicator and that there is alot of "hocus pocus" out there, so I need to be careful what I read.

I asked about hypothyroidism, etc. He said my thyroid panel came back normal, though I don't know exactly what he tested.

I asked if he tested estrogen levels and he said indignantly that if my test levels came back normal, there would be no need to test E levels.

He holds firm that my total test was normal at 397, he considers 300 "low", and HRT is not warranted for me. He also said he has no other thoughts as to why I have the same symptoms as "low test".

He's sending me another form for bloodwork - I'm gonna get tested tomorrow morning and see what happens. I'm gonna find another doctor, this guy is a dead-end.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Curious... I think you mentioned you're on HRT - what is your regimen like? And on top of that, what supplements do you take? Unleashed? etc?

I do 100 mgs of T a week along with 1/4 mg of dex twice a week alternating with "POST-CYCLE" on days I don't take the dex. I use UNLEASHED daily. Every other month I do a 3 day course of HC G -- 500 i.u.'s a day, to plump the boys up. On that week, I lower the T and increase the "POST-CYCLE" slightly.

Other than that, it's multi's and other supps for general health.

Once in a while I give myself a party for a month or so and up the T to 200mgs. If I had Primmo, I'd use a little of that as well. I'd add some BIG BLAST too. (I don't take that all the time because it's really for weight gain). Then I go back to the original protocol. No crash. Last time out I put on a couple of solid pounds.