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bent over rows...why jerk?

  • Thread starter Thread starter t3c
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t3c

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maybe I am missing something here but what is the point of jerking a little durring bent over rows? Why not just do them strict?
 
I thought it was sort of like heavy barbell's for bicep's you need to give it a little cheat off the bottom. I really don't think it's that terrible although your lower back maybe in danger if you go too heavy. I'm currently lifting light enough still on the rows that I need no cheating.
 
"Strict" in what sense? If you go really slow on them, it is quite hard to get to failure, as just holding it there at the bottom for even a few seconds, allows for SOME recovery to occur(imo). When I do them(and I just started to do them again), I pause at the top, but come down quick, and right back up. NO PAUSE at the bottom whatsoever. This allows my back muscles to fail FIRST, WITHOUT allowing the biceps or the back time to recoup. If that makes any sense. So if you are going slow on them(well, at least for me), and ESPECIALLY if you are pausing for a stretch at the bottom, you(I) will cheat yourself out of obtaining BACK MUSCLE failure, faster.
 
its so you can do more weight t3c. you see if you put the same amount of wieght on the bar and tell them to do it strict, they cant. so adding in some body english allows for more weight. just like the cheat curls utah mentioned, its cheating, the extra back movement is caused by the spinal erectors pulling the weight up,.

think like this....... in my opinion.

if you can strict bb row 185 for 1 and use 100%of your targeted back muscles to pull it up.

but you put 225 on the bar and use a jerk, then your using say 80% of targeted muscles, and 20% low back.

ok...... stict - 185 x 100% = 185 lbs of pressure on targeted muscles.

jerking - 225 x 80% = 180lbs of pressure on targeted muscles.

you see.......

again this is just my opinion. and here is some more of my opinion. its harder to do them strict style becuase of stablizers, actually using the targeted mucles etc etc. and i always try to make the exercises harder than normal, just like my workouts. they are supposed to be harder than a contest, then when you get to a contest, its easier........

i hope that helps...

X
 
gotcha...thanks for the replies

i've always done them strict and will continue to do so
 
they are supposed to be strict with out the bounce, but it is hard to heavy wieghts then
but i admit to small cheating on really heavy days to get the extra reps
 
t3c said:
i've always done them strict and will continue to do so
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I do everything strict. Save the jerks for the jerks. lol Sorry fellas IO had to let that one go. muhahahahahah

Seriously though I would definitely go strict and take it as far as it can go. You do not work to failure so it truly will not matter. I can tell you from YEARS of experience that you will build stronger back this way.
 
I have different feelings about strict form.....I think if you are trying to strenghten weaks points then strict is the way to go , but if your working on building power and speed then I see nothing wrong with momentum.
 
I do my rows (and most exercises strict). When I do jerk (whether it be rows, curls or military presses, etc.), it will be only for the last 2 or 3 reps and only with the least amount of jerk/cheat needed to continue to finish the set in a strict pulling, curling or pressing form. Lets just say its strategic cheating towards the end of a set. The problem I have seen (with some people) when jerking doing rows is when the weight is jerked (heaved) up and then instead of "pulling" the bar up to complete the rep, the person very quickly drops his torso down.

IMHO, I do believe cheating/jerking has its place and is useful, but as said earlier, (I) feel it should be deliberate and strategic in execution.
 
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I've been known to "lean" upward as the bar comes up... not necessiarly a jerk... but going from a more level state to a more elevated state... if that makes sense... Again, only on the really high weights...

C-ditty
 
Hey guys! I jerk the hell out of em when I do them. Really tears up my back. Allows me to go up to 375 also. Really feel it recruiting those fibers. Definately added some back thickness with this technique. Yea Im a jerk I admit it hehe. JMO though
 
some people will do it because they have weak scapular retraction. ie, they cant pinch their shoulder blades together. i visualize pulling the bar through my stomach. i do this alot for tbars, which fixed my slight dip (jerk) issue. now i just row it hard into my stomach, makes people look at me rather strange sometimes like "damn hes got fuel left in the tank". hehehe.
 
Here's another question:

What kind of ROM are we looking at in true, full-range BB rows?

I just started doing them again a few weeks ago. I touch the suckers to the floor, or close thereto. But I've watched countless lifters doing them in a maybe a 5"-8" range, standing somewhat upright a'la Yates.

Eh...*shrugs*
 
I appear to "jerk" because I accelerate the bar and retract my scapula at the top of each rep. So there is a snap on the end of my reps. I do this because it helps me to focus on accelerating the bar....imo train specifically
 
IronLion said:
I appear to "jerk" because I accelerate the bar and retract my scapula at the top of each rep. So there is a snap on the end of my reps. I do this because it helps me to focus on accelerating the bar....imo train specifically
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just so long as you arent dipping into the bar at the top, like many lesser beings do.:D
 
Is doing 60 degree bent over rows as effective ? I mean , my body is at 60 degree to the horizontal instead of being parallel to it.
 
would you say that including a jerk in your BB row would be along the same lines as a push press vs. OHP? Basically allowing you to work with more weight? My OHP has definitely gotten stronger because of all the push presses I've been doing...

what are your thoughts?
 
Common sense allows you to know that jerking ANY weight will allow you to lift it with more of a ROM.

It does not however directly coorelate into any strength gains that I have been able to find.

This is a highly individual thing.
 
erowana said:
Is doing 60 degree bent over rows as effective ? I mean , my body is at 60 degree to the horizontal instead of being parallel to it.
Click to expand...

The higher degree you are on barbell rows, the more your upper back will be worked, as to your lats when your stance is more horizontal.

I tend to lean upward (not downward) when I do bar-rows with 300+

C-ditty
 
PolishHammer1977 said:
Common sense allows you to know that jerking ANY weight will allow you to lift it with more of a ROM.

It does not however directly coorelate into any strength gains that I have been able to find.

This is a highly individual thing.
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Certainly common sense tells you that you can lift more weight with more ROM when you jerk.

My question is, "would you say that including a jerk in your BB row would be along the same lines as a push press vs. OHP?"

I ask because it seems like a push press is a widely accepted lift...T3C got me thinking here.:think:
 
I think the push press is an excellent exercise. Yes a jerk will help you create more of a ROM. Will it increase strength? I dont know bc its a highly individual lift and it depends on the people lifting it. Will their strict OHP raise as a result? I dont know.

I just never liked the idea of jerking the barbell row due to the nature of the backward shoulder rotation. It doesnt seem like a feasible solution for gains IMHO. I see more damage than gain bc most people do not know how to lift. If you do infact know how to lift properly and safely than its a difft story.

Post a video if you have further questions. I would like to see what you are doing.
 
Can I still ask questions without a video? :)

My question isn't about my form...trust me, Nate tells me if I'm doing something incorrectly! it's more of a comparison of the two lifts because I love push presses.

BTW, don't have a camera...yet. Nate is working on it!
 
Nonerz said:
Can I still ask questions without a video? :)

My question isn't about my form...trust me, Nate tells me if I'm doing something incorrectly! it's more of a comparison of the two lifts because I love push presses.

BTW, don't have a camera...yet. Nate is working on it!
Click to expand...

Of course you can always ask anything you want Nonerz!!

Nate is 1 man. 1 man. I am sure you could benefit from the WIDE perspectivers and peofessionals that view this board. I know people personally that view this board and do not post. THEY ARE PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES. It's all for YOUR benefit.

BTW, testosterone boy is an excellent advocate for any camera that you may purchase.
 
so basically you can argue all day about different exercises and justify bad form that way. if an exercise is meant to be "loose" in form or explosive then someone should stipulate it as such. a push press is called a push press, not a standing military press.

there are those that do side raises with dbells and dip when the weight is at the top, to me thats sloppy form. there are those that lean back when they do bicep curls, "counter balance" i dont think so.

so back to rowing. generally...the procedure goes like this:

"so and so" pushes with the legs to get the row moving....

pulls with the arms/back attempting to retract the scapula....

dips back down with the legs/torso slightly to ensure that the shoulder blades are pulled back.

i defy you to tell me thats a barbell row. its a leg assisted, jerky movement resembling a row. the reason why it doesnt have a name like "push press" does, is because there is no carryover. a push press assists a jerk or an overhead press. a sloppy row, helps.....your legs?

its a matter of priorities. if a person wants to get good at a sloppy row for the sake of numbers, thats fine. tighten up the form and how much strength is actually there? lets see, no starting strength, not much in the way of max contraction (retraction), so we are left with some midrange and possibly decelerating it at the bottom of the movement. a whole lot of isometric contraction in the erectors, and some leg drive.

sounds good to me.

so now the question still remains, what is the goal of the movement?
what does the person's intention for the movement?

from a general training standpoint, i wouldnt allow someone to jerk around like that. maybe thats just me......

"Nate is 1 man. 1 man. I am sure you could benefit from the WIDE perspectivers and peofessionals that view this board. I know people personally that view this board and do not post. THEY ARE PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES. It's all for YOUR benefit."

so you are insinuating that i push my point of view, training styles or opinion on nonerz? i brought her here! if i didnt want her to learn, would i? also keep in mind, im paid very well to train people and critique exercise, all day long. i dont just practice on myself, or read about it, i put it into action with people from all walks of life, challenges, goals and physical limitations. im the last person to be looked at as a single opinion. i study this stuff all day between clients, im not some parrot with a flex magazine in my lap sitting at my computer posting here.
 
bignate73 said:
"Nate is 1 man. 1 man. I am sure you could benefit from the WIDE perspectivers and peofessionals that view this board. I know people personally that view this board and do not post. THEY ARE PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES. It's all for YOUR benefit."

so you are insinuating that i push my point of view, training styles or opinion on nonerz? i brought her here! if i didnt want her to learn, would i? also keep in mind, im paid very well to train people and critique exercise, all day long. i dont just practice on myself, or read about it, i put it into action with people from all walks of life, challenges, goals and physical limitations. im the last person to be looked at as a single opinion. i study this stuff all day between clients, im not some parrot with a flex magazine in my lap sitting at my computer posting here.
Click to expand...

Nate. There are few people in life that speak without intentions I am one. Do not look into what I say bc there is nothing behind it. ok?

1 mans view is one mans view regardless of what you have studied and practiced. I understand you to be a leader and one that teaches a love and passion with a tremendous amount of real life experience behind it. Other views are necessary frm time to time to differentiate. That's all.

What you have wrote leads me to believe that you are either insecure about what you are teaching or you are looking to find extended meaning into the dry statement I had made.
 
actually i saw it as an attack on my integrity and intentions. one that i dont appreciate since i devote so much of my life to others and this sport.

as for what was discussed above, the point is: you can find a positive aspect to any type of variation of exercise, if you have a relevant goal behind it. but as t3c said, why do it? if there is not a valid carryover for it, then is it ego? moving the weight from point a to point b for the sake of calling it a row? there has to be a justification.
 
bignate73 said:
actually i saw it as an attack on my integrity and intentions. one that i dont appreciate since i devote so much of my life to others and this sport.
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This is insecurity Nate.

I would never challenge your integrity Nate. 1 mans opinion is 1 mans opinion. I have worked with professional strength caoches and they all had something to offer. No 1 was better than the other and if I only used 1 coach I would have never made the progress I had made.
 
I do them strict until the last couple when I bring in my lower back more since my upper back is getting blasted. I have to concentrate not to use my calves too. I tend to bring them in toward the end also.
 
I agree that one person's view may not be conclusive... as PH stated... I also see where Nate is coming from on the whole form issue.

However, I don't think that PH was attacking your integrity Nate. We know you are a trainer out in CA, and that you know your shit, there is no doubt about that. As a fellow trainer, you would also never try to give advice to people that is wack or bunk. I truly think you have intentions to help people with every post you make on this forum, or at least enlighten them to what you have learned in the past or have picked up along the way though your training.

I agree with PH... I mean, Jay Cutler is a great bodybuilder in my opinion... probably one of the best in the game, but those of you familiar with his workouts would probably never do them... as they tend to have "sloppy" (figuratively) form.

Sure, PL Squat puts more stress on the lumbar spine than the knees... and the BB squat does the opposite. -- are either incorrect? no. Just different ways to get to a goal.

Just like people who might do thier barbell rows at a higher angle than bent all the way over... if they are targeting their upper backs... then they are doing it correctly... however, if they wish to be hitting their lats, and aren't bent over correctly... well... then we have some form issues...

But basically... well... frag it. :)

C-ditty
 
I recently got advice from from Mule, spatts, devastation, thebrute, etc. These are highly experienced powerlifters and they pretty much all told me the same thing, but I also got something a little different from each of them. Five pairs of eyes is better than one. No offense meant to anyone.
 
PolishHammer1977 said:
Eyes wide shut
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here's what I said:

"My question isn't about my form...trust me, Nate tells me if I'm doing something incorrectly! it's more of a comparison of the two lifts because I love push presses."

I don't get my advice exclusively from Nate...he just knows me better than anyone here! He gives me "hands on" advice. :D

Let's get back to the TOPIC...not sling mud. Besides, I'm not making good use of my time at work otherwise!
 
We've talked about the lean forward (or downward) on barbell rows... but what about the lean UPWARD?

C-ditty
 
There's a guy in my gym who jerks everything - rows, shrugs, curls...you name it. If you can work a jerk into the movement, he does it. He does shrugs with 495 and it's one of the more spastic movements I've seen done in a gym thus far. I can't tell if the weight itself actually moves or not, or if his body is jerking and contorting so much that it creates the illusion that the weight travelled some distance.
 
A PL squat places more stress on the lumbar spine and knees? lmao...that's the number one reason to not quad-squat - stress on the back and knees. To the contrary a PL squat recruits the hamstrings which support the knee joint. An improper squat does not, whether a BB or PL is performing it.
 
alright, ive had half a chicken and a nap, im nice and clear headed.

let me recap my take on this:

there is an exercise...
there is a purpose for this exercise....
there is a method of performing this exercise that will complete that purpose.

thats all i stated.

because i am 1 person, doesnt mean i dont have one opinion. part of being a professional, means you use the above mentioned "scientific method" or whatever analytical process you need, to supply someone with a suitable exercise.

in nonerz'ssessess case, she mentioned that i would correct her if her form was not right. this implies that we have covered the goal of doing said exercise, and discovered the best method to acheive said goal.

this thread was a simple one. about rows. i stated my opinion without regards to hearing every possible goal that the exercise could fulfill. others had another vision in mind for the exercise. im speaking from a clinical fitness exercise point of view, if i need to change gears and critique if from another standpoint, i can. thats why i took offense to being looked at as "1 man, 1 opinion". basically, "take nate with a grain of salt" type argument. i know PH meant nothing by it, he was just directing nonerz to seek all approaches, so it was a simple misunderstanding.

before we make a blanket statement about an exercise, we have to understand the intended purpose of that exercise. if "loose" form would be more suitable, so be it. if an angle change will target a region better, so be it.

i hope that cleared up my point a bit.
 
What in the world is going on around here today..........

Anyway, I have a "rowing" question. I was reading somewhere, cannot remember where, could have been here, that it can be a good idea to start rows off the floor with a slight arch in the lower back, but with the upper back slightly rounded. Anyone ever heard of this before?
 
spatts said:
A PL squat places more stress on the lumbar spine and knees? lmao...that's the number one reason to not quad-squat - stress on the back and knees. To the contrary a PL squat recruits the hamstrings which support the knee joint. An improper squat does not, whether a BB or PL is performing it.
Click to expand...

PL squatting puts more stress on the lumbar spine than the knees... what did I say?

C-ditty
 
Citruscide said:


PL squatting puts more stress on the lumbar spine than the knees... what did I say?

C-ditty
Click to expand...


Citruscide said:
Sure, PL Squat puts more stress on the lumbar spine than the knees... and the BB squat does the opposite. -- are either incorrect? no. Just different ways to get to a goal.
Click to expand...
Ahh.. .exactly as I thought.. somebody didn't read my post. ;)

C-ditty
 
I think you missed my point. :)

I missquoted you, but if I hadn't quoted you at all, the point would still stand. The point was that there is a "correct" and "incorrect" way to squat, and it has nothing to do with whether you are a PL or a BB. A squat that places stress on the lumbar spine and/or knees is not an optimal squat (save for compressive force). Of course, this would depend on your definition of stress.
 
Barbell rows work best when strict, but when you have 315lbs in your hands. . there is a tendancy to heave the bar into the waist just to finish off the last few reps.

M U S C U L A R O V E R L O A D B A B Y!!!!
 
spatts said:
I think you missed my point. :)

I missquoted you, but if I hadn't quoted you at all, the point would still stand. The point was that there is a "correct" and "incorrect" way to squat, and it has nothing to do with whether you are a PL or a BB. A squat that places stress on the lumbar spine and/or knees is not an optimal squat (save for compressive force). Of course, this would depend on your definition of stress.
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Point taken. :) My original point was that some may do the PL squat and some may do the BB squat. For one to say the other is incorrect... well, it's a matter of personal and individual difference. That is what I was saying.

An incorrect squat is an incorrect squat. :)

C-ditty
 
spatts said:
Then what do you call a BB squat? Just same rules only narrow?
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usually a BB squat mimics the form of a front squat. knees going forward more. sitting in the "pocket" so to speak instead of gliding the hips back.
 
I guess I still can't relate because I do my front squats with my shins vertical. lol

I was just curious.
 
I jerk the weight on rows...and I also do them strict.

Variation...I like it.

B True
 
With the PL squat, the bar is placed LOWER on the back, where with the BB squat, the bar is placed higher on the back. BB squat stresses more the quads where the PL stresses more the glutes/hams. With the PL squat -- the bar is lower on the back... giving greater leverage than with the BB Squat that is higher on the back. With the PL Squat, the bar is more over the heels -- less quad action...

the knee angles on a PL Squat look more like a 90 degree... whereas the angle on BB is more acute... greater stress on the knees, but not necessiarly bad stress.

C-ditty
 
You could have a BB squat and have your legs out wide... it goes more to positioning of the bar on your back rather than the width of your legs.

C-ditty
 
Citruscide said:
With the PL squat, the bar is placed LOWER on the back, where with the BB squat, the bar is placed higher on the back. BB squat stresses more the quads where the PL stresses more the glutes/hams. With the PL squat -- the bar is lower on the back... giving greater leverage than with the BB Squat that is higher on the back. With the PL Squat, the bar is more over the heels -- less quad action...

the knee angles on a PL Squat look more like a 90 degree... whereas the angle on BB is more acute... greater stress on the knees, but not necessiarly bad stress.

C-ditty
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Sorry to drag this one out...but I am more confused than ever now! :confused:

You're saying the bar is placed LOWER on the back in a PL squat vs. a BB squat? How low? How would that change or make a difference? I am having a really hard time trying to visualize this one <<Nonerz opens her "Strength Training Anatomy" book>>

Okay, so it shows two options here...

1/ On the trapezius
2/ On the trapezius and deltoids posterior part, as in the type of squat powerlifters do in competition

I'm thinking that you place the bar higher or lower on the traps...is that right?
 
When I squat...the bar runs from rear delt to rear delt...

I have a nice bloody/bruise/callous where it sits:)

B True
 
Nonerz said:

Sorry to drag this one out...but I am more confused than ever now! :confused:

You're saying the bar is placed LOWER on the back in a PL squat vs. a BB squat? How low? How would that change or make a difference? I am having a really hard time trying to visualize this one <<Nonerz opens her "Strength Training Anatomy" book>>

Okay, so it shows two options here...

1/ On the trapezius
2/ On the trapezius and deltoids posterior part, as in the type of squat powerlifters do in competition

I'm thinking that you place the bar higher or lower on the traps...is that right?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I don't have any pictures handy, I do have them in a training manuel sitting right in front of me though.

The BB Squat has th bar placed high on the traps whereas the PL squat would have the bar placed lower, say, going across the back of your rear delts and upper back. Also, there is more of a sheer on the PL Squat, meaning, you would tend to LEAN forward more... creating a 90 degree angle with your legs.

These are two types of squats... and they are textbook. It doesn't make them the way everyone will do them.

C-ditty
 
I don't think bar placement has anything to do with it.

I see PLers carry it high, I see them carry it low. The decision is based on biomechanics. The longer the lever the lower you carry the weight to keep it over your center of gravity. It also depends on the development and anatomy of a person's upper back.
 
spatts said:
I don't think bar placement has anything to do with it.

I see PLers carry it high, I see them carry it low. The decision is based on biomechanics. The longer the lever the lower you carry the weight to keep it over your center of gravity. It also depends on the development and anatomy of a person's upper back.
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bingo bango!

i carry the bar right on my rear delts, any higher and i get forward too much, any lower and my shoulders will rip off, and i get out of the groove. my buddy though carrys the bar higher and it works well for him.
 
Citruscide said:
Also, there is more of a sheer on the PL Squat, meaning, you would tend to LEAN forward more... creating a 90 degree angle with your legs.
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You mean a 90 degree angle at the hip? I first thought you meant at the knees, which didn't make sense to me.

I tend to think that bar placement (higher, lower) is more of a personal choice--what feels good for you, rather than a critical aspect of the lift itself.
 
Nonerz said:


You mean a 90 degree angle at the hip? I first thought you meant at the knees, which didn't make sense to me.

I tend to think that bar placement (higher, lower) is more of a personal choice--what feels good for you, rather than a critical aspect of the lift itself.
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its a personal choice unless it affects your lift, imo. if i can carry the bar a different way and lift more weight, i will. it becomes more critical in powerlifting, when the #1 goal is poundage moved.
 
Liftbig said it... there are the set styles... PL and BB -- everyone has a variation of WHERE they carry the bar...

yes, Norenz... 90 degree at the KNEES. with the bar lower on the back, it will create more sheer (which means angle) in the back... you will appear to be leaning over more (or as spatts said, creating more of a lever) -- allowing you to go down as if you are sitting down on a chair.

But like I said. These are just the "manuel" and "textbook" definitions of the lifts. The PL lift is really more for a competitive PLer... with that sheer you can be able to squat more poundage, and in a PL meet that is the key thing (correct me if I'm wrong Spatts?).

Norenz -- you are also correct as personal choice on bar placement. LOL -- the original point of my statement is that people will do BB Squat or PL Squat... and neither one is WRONG -- it's all a matter of preference... if you read back a few pages to where I first mentioned it. :)

Citruscide said:


Sure, PL Squat puts more stress on the lumbar spine than the knees... and the BB squat does the opposite. -- are either incorrect? no. Just different ways to get to a goal.
Click to expand...

C-ditty
 
c-ditty, I don't think bar placement and shearing force go hand in hand. I probably carry the bar low by your standards, but I squat upright with a tight arch to avoid shearing force and encourage the compressive force that my spine is designed to take.

I don't think the q-angle (ankle/hip/knee) has anything to do with back position either. Whether in a 1/4 squat or ass to the floor, my torso is always at the same "SAFE" angle.

Yes, putting up the weight is the name of the game. Here's my guess tho. A squat *I* would call incorrect, where the knees deliberately come way forward, is not a BB squat; it's just an unsafe squat that happens to be peformed mostly by BBers because if a PLer did it, they'd have a darn short career. Most BBers will argue that it must be safe because they're not injured yet. This is true, and likely because a BBer probably isn't 1RM'ing. If I was doing 60-80% of my 1 rep max I could do them wrong and hit my quads all day long for reps, and never have bad knees too.

When I say wrong, I mean compromising form/safety to target a muscle or reach a goal.

IMO, there is a right and wrong way. Some people just happen to have success with the wrong way.

On a similar note, when was the last time you saw a powerlifter with small or underdeveloped quads? :)
 
Citruscide said:
Norenz -- you are also correct as personal choice on bar placement. LOL -- the original point of my statement is that people will do BB Squat or PL Squat... and neither one is WRONG -- it's all a matter of preference... if you read back a few pages to where I first mentioned it. :)



C-ditty
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Hey C -- I didn't say either one was WRONG...just trying to get a picture in my mind of how lowering the bar on your back would make a difference and WHERE the angle on your legs you were reffering to was (hip/knees, etc.). I got your point of personal preference the first time you mentioned it.

Spatts -- another pesky question from me...is it a "legal" lift if your knees are 90 degrees? Somehow I was thinking it should be less than that.
 
The q-angle has to be 90 degrees in most PL comps. In the USAPL it says parallel, but then their standards are actually much lower. Basically when the back of the knee and top of the hip are 90 degrees, you are parallel. Is that what you're asking?
 
This article goes into the various aspects of a PL squat ... such as bar position... so you can get a better handle of what I'm talking about. Bar Position and more explination


Frederick C. Hatfield, Ph.D., MSS, lays out the various myths of squatting... in his article, there is a chart that gives the basic run-down -- in this chart you will see the "knees at 90 degrees" and in the article you will see a further explination of squatting (as well as other leg strengthening exercises).

Here is an excerpt of the chart --
TECHNIQUE -- Powerlifting Squats

COMMENTS -- wide, intermediate or narrow stance – hip angle acute and knees near 90 degrees place stress on gluteals and hamstrings

USES -- ONLY for Powerlifting Competition (too stressful on the low back for other uses)

TECHNIQUE --- Olympic Squats
COMMENTS --- also called "High Bar Squats" or "Bodybuilding Squats" – hip angle near 90 degrees and knee angle acute place stress on quads
USES -- ONLY for bodybuilding training (too stressful on the knees for other uses)

Here is a link to the actual article itself -- The article

IAWA Rules for a Squat Lift -- Knee angle doesn't seem to be a huge rule concern here... As the PL must get to just around a paraell position. With the bar placement on lower on the back, the sheer of the PL back will be greater, causing them to have a 90 degree bend in their legs... in contrast to the acute angle of a BB Squat.

"The bar will be taken from the support stands and fixed across the shoulders at the base of the neck, no more than 3 cm below the top of the anterior deltoids. The feet must be parallel and in a straight line. Both hands must grip the bar and must be within the inside collars. The hands may touch the collars, but not be beyond them. Once the lifter has established foot and hand spacing, he/she will be given the command to squat. After such command, any movement of feet or hands is a disqualification. The lifter must lower his/her body during the lift to a depth in which the articulation of the hip joint is below the articulation of the knee. The lifter will recover (stand) without command. The lift ends on command when the lifter is fully recovered with legs straight and body erect. The lifter may be assisted back to the support stands after the command. "

Here are a bunch of videos -- although many of them tend to CUT out to the face of the lifter mid lift... you can see the bar placement and the SHEER on the back... as well as how that sheer causes one to sit down in the squat position.
Powerlifting Squats

I can probably go to the gym and show you these various forms... although, I'll have to do it with a cambered bar... as I can't really hold on to a straight bar for squats anymore... If all this information doesn't do it for you... you should have your trainer break out his ISSA training manuel that he got his certification in and have him show you the difference -- Lesson 11, page 31.

C-Man... feeling like the Nelson Montana of the training forum... lol -- wait, I actually backed up what I'm saying... ok, maybe I'm like... the Huck Fina of the training forum? one can only dream. :)

C-ditty
 
Nonerz said:


Yeah! Are you back in So. Cal yet?
Click to expand...

SoCal is holding off for the time being. Finances are keeping me in Chicago. I found a nice little World's Gym in the loop area... the rent is $700/month and I'm going to be hooked up with training sessions from 10-3/4pm every weekday. Billing out at 60$ per session... it's something I'm not about to turn down right now... :)

C-ditty
 
Mr. Hatfield is assuming that all PLers squat the same way; that is, with a lot of forward lean. As you can see in his article, under safety for the spine, that the more upright the lifter is the better...no matter what "sport" he or she is in. He also mentions that it is only dangerous for powerlifters who don't periodize. Meaning, we don't squat that way all the time, it's just that sometimes at maximal force, a little too much lean can happen, but we train to handle that (goodmornings). That's much different than people who go to the gym and crank out 3 x 15 like that week in and week out. I personally don't do full ROM 1 RM squats EVER, thus, I don't place a lot of shearing force on my spine. While he does a great job of highlighting the various squats seen, and their purpose, that doesn't mean that they are all best in terms of safety. Again, the fact that you aren't using maximal weight makes the undue stress on the knee seem ok. The good Dr. even warns toward the end that a BB squat is dangerous to lean forward in because the lower back has not been trained to handle it, and he mentions that doing them at high weight is a problem (restating what I said about getting by with it due to % of max). If a PL squat is guilty of being hard on the lumbar spine (which I disagree with-depends on the lifter) then a high bar squat is just as guilty of being "dangerous" on the cervical spine. He also says "slightly acute" knees. This is not the kind of danger I'm talking about. Sure, the more vertical the better, but I'm talking about those peple that just deliberately lean forward and move with the knees first. That's not the same thing as descending straight down with the bar moving in a straight line over your ass, and the knees naturally coming forward a tad.

I don't think any two squatters in my gym squat alike, and we are all taught the same way.
 
spatts said:
Mr. Hatfield is assuming that all PLers squat the same way; that is, with a lot of forward lean. As you can see in his article, under safety for the spine, that the more upright the lifter is the better...no matter what "sport" he or she is in. He also mentions that it is only dangerous for powerlifters who don't periodize. Meaning, we don't squat that way all the time, it's just that sometimes at maximal force, a little too much lean can happen, but we train to handle that (goodmornings). That's much different than people who go to the gym and crank out 3 x 15 like that week in and week out. I personally don't do full ROM 1 RM squats EVER, thus, I don't place a lot of shearing force on my spine. While he does a great job of highlighting the various squats seen, and their purpose, that doesn't mean that they are all best in terms of safety. Again, the fact that you aren't using maximal weight makes the undue stress on the knee seem ok. The good Dr. even warns toward the end that a BB squat is dangerous to lean forward in because the lower back has not been trained to handle it, and he mentions that doing them at high weight is a problem (restating what I said about getting by with it due to % of max). If a PL squat is guilty of being hard on the lumbar spine (which I disagree with-depends on the lifter) then a high bar squat is just as guilty of being "dangerous" on the cervical spine. He also says "slightly acute" knees. This is not the kind of danger I'm talking about. Sure, the more vertical the better, but I'm talking about those peple that just deliberately lean forward and move with the knees first. That's not the same things as descending straight down with the bar moving in a straight line over your ass, and the knees naturally coming forward a tad.

I don't think any two squatters in my gym squat alike, and we are all taught the same way.
Click to expand...

Hmm.. I don't think I ever said that anyone was locked into one form or another... in fact, since my very first post on this, I think I said that people squat differently, and that there is no one correct way (however, there is incorrect form) over another.

The entire point of my post was to show Norenz the difference between the PL and BB squat in textbook fashion. Those are the differences, in the two varieties of squats... whether you, I or Bignate do them differently.

C-ditty
 
spatts said:
I was replying to him, not you.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't see Mr. Hatfeild on the thread... I logically thought the post was in response to the information I posted. My mistake. ;)

C-ditty
 
There you go thinking again. I thought "Mr. Hatfield is assuming that all PLers squat the same way," clarified who I was referring to. ;)

Hey, how much fat have you gotten with your protein today?
 
Citruscide said:
The entire point of my post was to show Norenz the difference between the PL and BB squat in textbook fashion. Those are the differences, in the two varieties of squats... whether you, I or Bignate do them differently.

C-ditty
Click to expand...
That's nice and all, but I didn't ask about the differences nor did I intend to drag Nate into yet another thread! Just asking for clarification of your explaination with the intent of (hopefully) learning something. I got your clarification...thanks.

Keep us posted on your move back to California

btw, it's Nonerz...not Norenz. :)
 
NORENZO!!

heheheh.

btw, i prefer a high bar position because a low bar position feels awkward and i dont have enough of a shelf to set it on. foot position, i keep my toes inline with my knees (i dont do the parallel thing) because i want to minimize twisting forces in my lower leg due to different joint bending in different directions. i sit waaay back IMO and bring the crease of my hip just below the top of the knee. these are things "i" do, based on what ive taken from various experiences and bits of information. i guess its called experience or variety of sources, but i think it best summarizes why there cant be a blanket statement made about an exercise, as PH illustrated earlier in the thread. there can be generalizations about a movement, but for the case of BB or PL squat only some generalizations with regards to muscle recruitment and some of the rules of depth etc.
 
spatts said:
Hey, how much fat have you gotten with your protein today?
Click to expand...

Not enough.. .as it is a FACT that if you eat protein without fat or carbs it will turn into sugar... and be used as energy or stored as fat. I learned this from Mr. Montana.

C-ditty
 
bignate73 said:
btw c-ditty,

get your butt out here....you can make that at powerhouse down in SD easily.

hehe.
Click to expand...

I trained at one up here for like 2 years... part-time while I was in law school -- I just had the "house" cert at the time... pretty much meaningless... got in by virtue of my track and feild experience.

Worlds seems to be cutting a good deal though... so I'll see.

C-ditty
 
Citruscide said:


Not enough.. .as it is a FACT that if you eat protein without fat or carbs it will turn into sugar... and be used as energy or stored as fat. I learned this from Mr. Montana.

C-ditty
Click to expand...

that sounds circumstantial, isnt that if your glycogen stores are depleted enough to warrant a need for gluconeogenesis? someone eating every 2 hours might not find that to be the case. though having another macronutrient in there is a good rule of thumb for the every 4+ hour eater.
 
bignate73 said:


that sounds circumstantial, isnt that if your glycogen stores are depleted enough to warrant a need for gluconeogenesis? someone eating every 2 hours might not find that to be the case. though having another macronutrient in there is a good rule of thumb for the every 4+ hour eater.
Click to expand...

Cditty was being sarcastic. :)
 
bignate73 said:
$700 a month rent isnt that great of a deal. did you buy your insurance yet?
Click to expand...

MyFitnessInsurance.com -- 2 million in coverage, covers you on your in homes too. Lasts for a year I think I paid 199$ for it.

You're right. $700 isn't great. My currnet gym is $200. But this place is going to GIVE me clients from around mid morning to 4pm... so I'm guessing 11-4 and the clients all want to be in and out in like 35 minutes (during their lunch breaks). At those kind of dollars for sessions... it's going to be mad cash... 5 days a week. 700 won't be that bad. :)

Oh yeah, I was making reference to the Nelson Montana post in the anabolic forum... he actually made those claims LOL

C-ditty
 
bignate73 said:


sarcasm on the internet sucks! i always miss it. :D
Click to expand...

From what I've heard, if it's sarcasm you want, check out Al Franken doing...well, just about anything :)

I don't mean to interrupt the discussion of strict vs. snappier rowing, but I'm curious: what's the most anyone actually can BB row without a snap?

I saw "The Unbelievable." Ronnie was snapping 405 and 495, but it still looked rather easy to him.

Post biceps-tear, and after doing at least one lat exercise beforehand, Dorian handled 405 pretty strictly.

I'm in the dark about this...my pansy-ass Golds has a grand total of maybe 5 BB rowers: me, my training partner, one powerlifter, one bodybuilder, and some dude with a fu-man-chu.
 
spatts said:
I guess I still can't relate because I do my front squats with my shins vertical. lol
Click to expand...

What stance are you using?

I usually do my front/zercher squats with a narrow stance, and there is no way in hell I could keep my shins vertical with that stance. They are MORE vertical the closer I get towards a more PL stance. (Wider with toes out.)


Just curious,
Joker
 
In a close stance the farthest forward my knees come is still over my toes. I understand that's not normal though.
 
JOKER47 said:
I usually do my front/zercher squats with a narrow stance, and there is no way in hell I could keep my shins vertical with that stance.
Click to expand...

spatts i may be wrong here, correct me if i am.

when you say your shins are vertical, you mean from a side view perspective. in other words, when watching you do those squats from the side your shins dont move toward your toes.

but if you watch from the front, do your shins move away from your feet, or are they still vertical from the front view???

i can keep mine vertical, but i have to compensate by pushing my knees out even further to the sides.

X
 
I would guess both. I don't spread my knees, so I think they are in the same position as when I start. Never looked. lol
 
spatts said:
In a close stance the farthest forward my knees come is still over my toes. I understand that's not normal though.
Click to expand...

Why isn't that normal? On a front squat or high bar squat (I do these with a close stance) my knees come out over my toes...but no farther.

Joker...I agree. The wider my stance is the more I can sit back and my shins are straight up and down. I FINALLY realized why my knees are moving fwd when I squat...it is because my feet are not a mile apart...lol.

B True
 
OK, not common, I guess is what I meant. At least it doesn't seem to be by the reaction I usually get.
 
spatts said:
OK, not common, I guess is what I meant. At least it doesn't seem to be by the reaction I usually get.
Click to expand...

I think that you told me that your knees don't go over your toes when you front squat. I watched the vids last night and it appeared in the vids of some types of squats that they did move fwd. I was confused...

I believe that Cheese and myself can high bar or front squat without our knees going past our toes...most people surely should be able to do the same.

B True
 
lowsquatfront2.jpg


...that about as far forward as they go. It's actually easier to stay balanced with weight on the bar.
 
spatts said:
lowsquatfront2.jpg


...that about as far forward as they go. It's actually easier to stay balanced with weight on the bar.
Click to expand...

Mine look just about the same...

Well...without the long hair, no hat, my bar isn't that pretty, and my feet are about 2 feet longer each...

;)

B True
 
longarms said:
Don't look like Cankles to me.
Click to expand...

No, I actually have very skinny ankles. Avoided long jump after a few years because they would twist so easy. That's why it freaked me out to see them all puffy. lol
 
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