5x5 progression/missing weights.. question??

[get456]

Not really intending on keeping a journal but I do have a question

I am doing the intermediate 5x5 from madcow's website right now and I have noticed one very striking issue....

I made my starting weights with real numbers that were very close to my actual 1RM and 5RM weights... I routinely do 5RM lifts so it wasnt a huge issue to figure that.... However right now I am on wed of week 3 and I am having issues with the bench weights... THe squats have been cake so far, deadlifts, work but doable, rows awesome as well...

but the bench... i barely... BARELY got my weight on monday for 5 and the last rep i didnt touch my chest... so i dropped my starting weight (5RM) by 5 lbs... so I will be doing the same weight next week as this week.

Same tonight on incline... i BARELY got my 5 reps...

is that how it is supposed to be? I havent missed a lift yet, but im concerned for next week.

If I need a touch spot does that count as a missed lift or can i move on? as opposed to missing a full rep.

My lifts are not ridiculous and liek I said I based my starting numbers on weights i normally work with...

any tips?

right now im 188lbs and I take in about 3000-3200 cals on lifting days, 2000-2200 on off days (saturday is a cheat day, prob do 3000-3500 cals on sat but not as clean)

 

[future]

Most people OVERestimate their weights. You are going too heavy.

An alternative as well is to do your heavy set first then decrease the weight through the sets but still get your 5 reps.

 

[get456]

that was kind of my question though... I know what my previous 5RM were... straight up, proper form 5RM, weights i have done more than one time... its not like i was doing 225x10 and then was like... well ill just figure 275 is my 5RM

does that make sense? Or do you think I still would have over estimated for some reason?

i will say one thing I have changed is my grip on the bench... i was gripping the bar with my ring finger ON the rings... now I am gripping with my index finger on the rings... would that change my ability to lift that much? by 5 or even 10 lbs??

 

[future]

Changing the grip will cause an adjustment for sure.

The problem with doing less reps in training is the success factor at times becomes a coin toss. Like doing a 1 rep max. You have a 50/50 shot of getting out of that set with zero or one rep. So the lower the scheme the greater the chance of having a less than successful set.

That being said,

I made my starting weights with real numbers that were very close to my actual 1RM and 5RM weight

this tells me you started too heavy.

 

[get456]

Changing the grip will cause an adjustment for sure.

The problem with doing less reps in training is the success factor at times becomes a coin toss. Like doing a 1 rep max. You have a 50/50 shot of getting out of that set with zero or one rep. So the lower the scheme the greater the chance of having a less than successful set.

That being said, this tells me you started too heavy.

When I said I made my starting weights with my current 5rm... what i meant was, that my current 5RM would be hit in week 4...

did you think I meant that i started week one at my maxes? I hope im not being too dense and I do appreciate the help...

Regardless of my perceived "correctness" to start with... I am dropping my bench and inc bench weight 5 lbs... so Im giving myself 1 extra week to build up.

I still am trying to understand why im getting buried though

 

[enigma4dub]

There are a couple things to consider grip change, fatigue, or incorrect weight selection or maybe all 3. If the other excercises are going up well and its early in the program its a safe bet you overshot your max on your pushes. Remember Its REAL MAXES, in other words whatever you are currently conditioned to do. Its not a best case scenario.

 

[blut wump]

Most gym goers and most people new to the 5x5 have put in a lot more effort on their bench than any other lift. Accordingly, there's less room for easy improvement on the bench and it's a harder lift to make progress on. With the squat and deadlift, there's typically a lot more untapped potential and so progress can be quite remarkable compared with expectations.

That said, it doesn't help your situation. How are you ramping to the top sets? Do you start reasonably low and have big jumps in weight to your top set or do you start fairly close to your top set and make small jumps? Post up your weights for the last Fri/Mon. Post percentages if you don't like to post the actual weights. Dropping back by 5lbs isn't a bad idea but isn't going to help if you'll just have the same problem next week.

Don't forget that if you're unaccustomed to this type of workout then you'll find that benching after reasonably hard squatting will detract from your bench. Your 5RM under these conditions will be lower than a 5RM when reasonably fresh. Also if you're cutting then increasing a lift will be a lot harder than when bulking. In fact just staying the same can be as hard as making PRs while you're cutting. Cycling your food intake such that it's lower while you're growing might be accounting for this to some extent.

Yes, getting a touch from your spotter is a fail. Anything that isn't 100% yours is a fail since you didn't make the lift.

 

[get456]

Previous lifting program was the usual BB split. I have done inc db's for years (actually posted recently that my chest was just not growing from doing the db's) I was doing 6+reps with 120lb db's ... moved about 5 weeks ago to doing flat bench. The reason i mention that is that im not the typical bench a bajillion sets and do some curls kind of guy... i take my diet/lifting rather serious and I want to make real improvements.. thats why im here to learn and read, so i can "program" a routine better that has some real theory behind it... In fact per Madcow's suggestion I justbought Ripptoe/Kilgore's book "Practical Programming for Strength"

Calculated 5RM:
Squat-270
Bench-255
Row-204
Dead-343
Incline-217

All based on completed lifts at those weights (except Row, ive never went under 8 reps on the row before, but I got 200lbs for 5 monday, cake)


*actually let me edit this... the weights on the left are from teh spreadsheet, the weights on the right are ACTUAL lifts completed (microloading)

Friday:
Squat-
129*5 135*5
161*5 161.25*5
193*5 195*5
225*5 225*5
263*3 263.75*3
193*8 195*8

Bench
121*5 135*5
152*5 155*5
182*5 185*5
212*5 215*5
248*3 248.75*3- Got my 3 but hard work
182*8 185*8

(not including Row since not an issue)
(assistance was weighted dips +90*8, +100*8, +100*7, curls 100*8, 110*8,105*10, 3 sets of extensions with rope)

Monday-
Squat-
132*5 135*5
165*5 165*5
198*5 198.75*5
231*5 231.25*5
264*5 265*5

Bench-(actually done last, after rows since some clowns were using the bench for reps with 100lbs)
124*5 125*5
155*5 155*5
186*5 186.25*5
218*5 218.75*5
250*5 250*5
(last set, i know i didnt touch my chest at least once, and i believe my spotter touched the bar on the last rep)

On inclines yesterday, I got my 5 reps but liek BARELY... as in, i dont think i could have done it with 1 more lb


As for my diet, im def NOT on a bulking diet... Im really wanting to drop b/f to some degree but I dont want to do a full cutting diet, killing my calories as I have no reason to do that, nothing to get ready for... I'd rather be a bit more judicious about it and lose the b/f slowly while keeping my lifts progressing.

 

[bigred133]

The way I understood the explanation of the intermediate program on madcows site: If you miss the last rep then you just use the same weights for that lift next week and try to get all the reps.

In other words: don't drop the weight. Stay with the same weight until you get all your reps.

Are you getting enough sleep?

Are you accustomed to this much volume, meaning total tonnage per day?

Have you read the program explantion on madcows site or are you just using the spreadsheet?

Posting your increases between ramping sets will help us understand what you are doing.

I am currently using a 3x5 beginner program from Mark Rippetoe's book "Starting Strength" to prepare me for the intermediate 5x5. While my increases on squats and deads have been great, increasing the bench and incline has taken every bit of effort I can produce. The guy who trains with me has experienced this also. You are working with smaller muscle groups in the pressing excercises, so this is no surprise.

Don't be concerned. Stick with it, and don't fuck with it.

i was gripping the bar with my ring finger ON the rings... now I am gripping with my index finger on the rings...

You widened your grip? The last time I did that I blew out my shoulder. The grip is the problem. IMO: You should try a comfortable shoulder width grip, and whatever you do, don't change anything else about your form in the middle of a program.

ETA: keep your elbows in too.

 

[get456]

Are you accustomed to this much volume, meaning total tonnage per day?

Have you read the program explantion on madcows site or are you just using the spreadsheet?




You widened your grip? The last time I did that I blew out my shoulder. The grip is the problem. IMO: You should try a comfortable shoulder width grip, and whatever you do, don't change anything else about your form in the middle of a program.

The volume isnt reall an issue... Im used to WAY more, one of the reasons I picked the program was to drop the volume.

As far as reading the site... lol I dont think there is a fuckin punctuation mark I havent read... I have probably spent a total of 6-8 hours reading and following every link on that site

as for grip... i may just go back to my old grip and see what happens... cant believe an inch or two would make such a huge difference... but if i magically put up the right weights i guess ill have my answer